What's Wrong With my Corpse Carts?

[Bravo_10]

Has anyone else been having the same problems that I have in the 8th edition?

I very often like to take my Corpse Cart(s) kitted out with Balefire to do some damage to the enemy Magic Phase, and they really are quite adept at doing so. It's not so much a big deal anymore now that EVERYONE gets to add their Wizard Level to their casting rolls, but double-balefire can really make its presence known.

However, I am simply unable to keep the darned Carts alive. In Close Combat, they usually perform okay with 2D6 WS2 S2 attacks and T4, but shooting is killer. Even though the Cart itself isn't a "Large Target," a unit of Archers/Handgunners/Jezzails/etc. can usually just see it's Balefire attachment from overtop of my units. Sure, they take a -1 or -2 modifier on their to-hit rolls, but in 1 or 2 turns of blistering fire my Cart is lying in pieces on the ground.

And don't even get me started about cannons... :swear:

My question to the forum is this: how in Nagash's name do you guys manage to keep your Corpse Carts alive? Do people simply leave them at home in the TLOS era? (Option number 2 would be a real shame because the model looks awesome).

 

[Lord Crosis]

With TLoS, you are out of luck there buddy. With wizard levels now being added to the casting, balefire is just not worth. Lodestone is better IMO as it allows you to repair yours Wights and Vampires easier with IoN in case you cannot get a Summon Undead Horde off.

regards,
Lord Crosis

 

[snowblood]

I quite like the corpsecarts and usually take two with balefires. It is true they don't make much difference, but it helps in combo with a dispel. Personally maybe your carts are having some bad games, mine seem to over perform. Making their regeneration saves too many times to keep my opponent in a sane state. I haven't faced warmachines yet with them, just small arms like bows and xbows and the occasional magic missiles.
I do agree that the model is awesome and what with the boundspells using up powerdice I rarely use them unless a unit is already in cc which is often to late.
I ussually now leave them as a screen against scouts in my deployment zone as I generally set up in a tight little turtle on one side. In this roll it let's usually gives me turn or 2 before I need to redirect something for the scouts.

 

[Stacius]

I take 1 with Lodestone as a support for my unit's nearby. My opponent's usually try and shoot it out, but it mean's that they are not targeting anything else. To be honest, it is very rare that it survive's a game, but not tried a Necro on it yet.

 

[Forge]

I think corpse carts are useless now that you have to use dice for their ability and casting got so much easier with the wizard level add and maximum of 6 power dice to throw at a spell. Unholy lodestone is the only worth it one if your doing a IoN spam list, and only one of them and no more.

 

[gkgnight]

i use a corpse cart with the lodestone for my ethreal army list and keep it nearby 2 untis of spirit hosts. Personally my corpse cart has enver survived throuh a single game.....

for some reason my enemies always focus fire on it and its generally dead come turn 3. It does however generally ensure my spirit hosts remain "topped off" until my cart is blown away.

But the lacking resilience of it has become apparent to myself also. I jsut wonder why my enemies always tihnk its such a big threat when on average it'll only pump out 7 WS2 S2 hits when its used in combat. I feel that my enemies are wasting there shooting / magic targeting such a minor unit so it does let my core / other units free to wreak havoc.

 

[bored1]

Why? Fairly easy to kill for decent return on points, with an ability just good enough to make it higher priority with shooting compared to other targets.

In short, best way to keep them "alive" is to leave them at home, IMO.

 

[mujushin]

Corpse cart seemed like a really good idea for using against high elves, what with the ASF and the change in rules to allow them to re-roll misses if their Int is higher (which it always is). Figured using the Miasma bound spell would help profoundly. But with the changes to dispelling making bound spells very hard to get off, this trick didn't really pay dividends, and mass shooting will always kill it. Seems you need to have a couple of them in order to really make any use from them, again this seems like a bit of a waste of points

 

[BloodKnight]

If you don't expect much from them in the beginning, you won't be disappointed. That said; if you get a critical Miasma off and get ASF you can be happily surprised.

 

[LuciusBlake]

yeah.. corpse carts generally are shooting magnets. even though they dont do much. could it be that the models just look scary draw fire more than the models that dont?
my cart only survived 1 game and that was against DoC and they had no shooting!
jokes aside its an easy 100 victory points for those shooty armies. at 100 points its not exactly worth it. so 1 would be ok. 2 is pushing it. but if they survive its a good thing.
but seriously. for a bound spell. you're better off with a book of arkhan. vanhel does give reroll to hit in addition to ASF.// or extra movement. plus its a magic item so its a surprise 1st time. haha!

try to use terrain to block LoS. ion can heal it. and i know its a waste of PD but a well placed raise dead with multiple IoN could block those critical shooty elements from your corpse carts and of course.. the rest of your army. spirit hosts can be a good blocker but they cost too much. unless theyre summoned of course.

 

[nicklegit]

no one ever shoots at mine, just at my varghulf and my unit with my general. Mine has come out alive in everygame, ive only lost about 3 games so far, i must say the vampire counts are pretty strong

 

[Forge]

i use a corpse cart with the lodestone for my ethreal army list and keep it nearby 2 untis of spirit hosts. Personally my corpse cart has enver survived throuh a single game.....

for some reason my enemies always focus fire on it and its generally dead come turn 3. It does however generally ensure my spirit hosts remain "topped off" until my cart is blown away.

But the lacking resilience of it has become apparent to myself also. I jsut wonder why my enemies always tihnk its such a big threat when on average it'll only pump out 7 WS2 S2 hits when its used in combat. I feel that my enemies are wasting there shooting / magic targeting such a minor unit so it does let my core / other units free to wreak havoc.

But why? unholy lodestone doesnt work on ethereal units, its only helpful for skeletons, zombies, ghouls, and GG

 

[gkgnight]

actually the ldoestone does indeed work on ethreal units, it states in the VC army book on page 43: "... Vampire units still only regain a single wound..." It ahs no mention about ethreal units thus it is effective for wraiths, black coach, and spirit hosts.

 

[Darius the Insane]

actually the ldoestone does indeed work on ethreal units, it states in the VC army book on page 43: "... Vampire units still only regain a single wound..." It ahs no mention about ethreal units thus it is effective for wraiths, black coach, and spirit hosts.

And also Black knights as well, as gkgnight said, vampires are the only ones left out ie lord's, hero's and blood knights - everything else is fair game.

Also I believe that would discount the Black Coach as well though because it has the vampire rule does it not?

 

[PapaNasty]

How is your CC dying to shooting?

Most opponents I have played against, don't even bother shooting at it. Since it's always behind my infantry units, thus benefits from hard cover (If they sneak around the side to shoot at it, that's probably a tad too much effort too late in the game to matter too much, they could probably be shooting at a higher point value unit anyway).

If they do shoot at it, then that's awesome.

Since if say they fire 60 (for ezymode maths lol) shots at ghouls, hitting on 4s with Str 3 (Fairly average right?), you'd take 30 hits and lose 10 ghouls.

If they fire at your CC, when it's behind a unit, they'd be hitting on 6s (Maybe even 7s since it might be long range), so 60 shots would be 10 hits, 2 wounds, of which you're 33% chance to armor save, 50% to regen, either way you're probably not going to die in 1 turn, so you get full use out of it next turn.

So they'd need to probably have 150+ shots at your CC in order to kill it. The same number of shots at Ghouls, would probably inflict 30+ casulties, so if they shoot at your CC, it's more than paid for itself already.

Of course war machines would be the exception, but the cannonball needs to bounce a fair distance + not roll a 1 to wound in any ranks of ghouls. Even then you've got 4+ regen. A stonethrower will almost always miss it completely, if it scores a hit you've got 4+ regen, but even if you fail, it's probably better than a hit on your Varghulf or Black Coach.


So with this in mind, you should be able to assume that the CC will be active for most of the game, or that if it's not, you'd have probably lost something of equal/more value/points otherwise.


With that in mind.... how much do you pay for an extra casting level? 50 Points, that's well worth it right? Balefire only helps in their magic phase, but it still makes it well worth 25 points right? maybe more?

ASF bound lvl 3 is poo..... but.... All units within 6" is a biggie, 1-2PD can buff up 1-3 (sometimes more) units with ASF. Because you reroll misses with equal / higher initiative, depending on your opponent you're still often rerolling misses with Ghouls / Vampires (With shadows, can almost guarantee rerolls). Also, you can cast it before your units get into combat.... so you can have ASF even when the enemy charges you.


imo CCs are definitely worthwhile, I was thinking about taking 2, but was a bit squeezed on points. They'd be nuts in a high points game though, as would allow you to completely nerf your opponents magic phases.

 

[Big D Von Carstein]

Of course war machines would be the exception, but the cannonball needs to bounce a fair distance + not roll a 1 to wound in any ranks of ghouls.

This is wrong. The cannonball can bounce through a unit of ghouls roll a 1 for everyone of them and still kill the cart and the necro on top of it. Only monsterous creatures/infantry/beasts will block the path of a cannonball. Standard infantry/cavalry/beasts do not. Also, a cannon will hit both the CC and any Necro you have on top with no need to randomise, and if its a dwarf cannon (or Grudgethrower) you won't get regen either.
Also, as the CC should be on a chariot base, it is rediculously easy to hit with a Cannon or Stonethrower.
You will need to use bats (or dogs) to tie up the warmachines. They probably won't kill it, but will tie it up long enough for the CC to be useful.

 

[Bravo_10]

Hey thanks for all of the input guys! Although I'm still not really sure what to think of CC's, I don't think I'll be leaving them out of my army, especially because ethereals get two wounds back per casting of IoN if you take the Lodestone (as well as Black Knights).

As for the shooting, it's possible that my opponent just gets really lucky with his rolls. Looking at PapaNasty's mathed-out post makes me kind of realize this. Either way, it would be nice to have at least one of them survive through a game.

 

[PapaNasty]

Also, as the CC should be on a chariot base, it is rediculously easy to hit with a Cannon or Stonethrower.

Nope, a stonethrower will still easily miss it

a 2" scatter to the side, or a 4" scatter forwards/backwards should put it outside the middle hole of the template. Since that's the only important part to avoid from the stonethrower, the low str hits are pitiful.

So if they shoot at it with a stonethrower:

1/3 chance they'll get a direct hit (maybe 1/9 chance for a scatter hit (1/6 chance of 2" (4" will always miss), 1/2 chance for a more verticle direction than horizontal)

But to balance this

1/6 chance they'll roll a 1 for toughness
50% chance you'll regen.
1/3 chance they won't do 3 wounds in 1 shot

So overall, you'd have to put the chances of them killing you in 1 shot, at around 1/8.

They might slowly wear you down over the course of the game, but it's probably still better than them shooting at your huge block of ghouls / skeletons, which will be significantly easier to hit + will take large amounts of casualties without the benefit of 4+ regen. Each wound to the CC, is easier to restore than the average 5+ which you'd take on your Ghouls if they are hit in their centre. Also even if you don't restore the wounds, your CC is still at 100% effectiveness, so it's better that they shoot at the CC not Ghouls (Unless it's T5/6 and they are just trying to sneak in some extra points by getting lucky)

& @ Bravo_10

Yep main thing is though, to protect them from shooting you need to ensure that you keep them behind your units of infantry. Since the key to keeping them alive, is ensuring that your opponent never gets a clear shot at them. As they'll wound it 2-3 times as easily if they can shoot it directly, without the benefit of cover.

Although imo, Balefire is a better option than an unholy lodestone. But depends on your army makeup I guess, 2 wounds per IoN to ethereal / cavalry is a pretty nice bonus. But personally I like Balefire since you don't have to do anything to get the advantage.

 

[Bob the Liche]

And don't even get me started about cannons... :swear:

On the bright side if that shot isn't going for your General..... :silent:

One Corpse Cart is 8x Grave Guard (7x with Great Weapons) and the unit doesn't even count towards the 25 percent base. My preference is to stick with the meat and potatoes.

Gotta salute everyone who goes that extra mile to make the Corpse Cart work. A worthy goal, I love it! o7

 

[Count Lasombra]

The more I play vamps...the less I want a corpse cart.Vanhels does it better
Seriously though,I've never been in a critical situation and thought "Damn! If only I had brought that corpse cart!":lol:
This is not intended as an argument,I just thought it was funny.