When to reveal information

[Drakim]

This is a constant source of problems for me and my friends. We don't really have any clearly established rules for when and how we are to reveal information about equipment and magic items and the like. We play with closed army lists until the match is over.

We figured that you can "see" what sort of equipment a unit has, for example, if skeletons are using spears, the models should be holding spears, and if you don't have those and is using some sort of replacement model (or even blank bases) you should inform your opponent about how they should look.

But then comes the smaller issues. Should an opponent be informed of what magic weapon your characters are using, or are you allowed to keep that secret? What if you are using say, the Black Axe of Krell on a Wright King, should the opponent be notified that the Wright King is fielding a "magical great weapon" if he asks?

When fielding magical armor on a vampire like the Nightshroud, should the opponent be able to tell that the vampire is mysteriously using a light armor instead of the regular heavy? What does even the Flayed Haukberk count as? Super Awesome Fullplate armor?

The issues are too numerous to list here, so I was wondering, is there actually some rules on this, or some commonly used rule of thumb?

 

[IvorTangrean]

My group tends to play that you declare any mundane or equivelent gear. So you would say the wight has a great weapon if asked and then when you attack you explain the full rules.

 

[Drakim]

My group tends to play that you declare any mundane or equivelent gear. So you would say the wight has a great weapon if asked and then when you attack you explain the full rules.

That can work, but it's not always that there is a mundane equal to magic items. What then?

 

[IvorTangrean]

Then you declare it when you use it

 

[Bishop]

Mundane equipment should be visible and obviously, especially on units. (ie. Spear Skeletons, GW Grave Guard, etc.. as well as Musicians, Standards, et al.).

Magic Items and Vampire Powers (Demonic gift, etc) should only be declared as needed. After all, there are magic items in the game which "detect" magical items... so, ask yourself, what would be the point of those if all magic items were "visible"?

 

[Drakim]

Mundane equipment should be visible and obviously, especially on units. (ie. Spear Skeletons, GW Grave Guard, etc.. as well as Musicians, Standards, et al.).

Magic Items and Vampire Powers (Demonic gift, etc) should only be declared as needed. After all, there are magic items in the game which "detect" magical items... so, ask yourself, what would be the point of those if all magic items were "visible"?

Indeed, but if you are to tell the mudane equal of the magic item, an experienced player very often tell what sort of magic armor your vampire has.

If he is wearing light armor he is almost certainty using Nightshroud. If he is wearing fullplate (4+) he is almost certantly wearing the Bloody Hauberk. If the vampire is wearing an "unspecified" armor he is almost certantly wearing the Flayed Hauberk.

 

[Lord Fear]

Yep, them's the breaks. Means you can't really sneak through things like Nightshroud, but it's a great little item anyway! Also note that the Bloody Hauberk is not actually full plate armour, it would just be "armour".

I've recently been running an ultra-defensive Wight King BSB on foot with Flayed Hauberk and Gem of Blood. Normally he would have to have heavy armour, so when I go through my army I just say he has "armour" quite quickly- if opponents want to assume I mean heavy armour I won't correct them, if they want me to clarify, I will.

 

[Danceman]

Mundane equipment I declare openly. Magic items remain unannounced untill they come into effect. Never run into anyone who's played it differently.

 

[rogerjeny]

If you want the reveal information then you have to declare openly there are so many magic items remains announced that untill they will come into the effect then never run to any one who played differently in a various manner .

 

[Tamodan Varison]

Mundane equipment should be visible and obviously, especially on units. (ie. Spear Skeletons, GW Grave Guard, etc.. as well as Musicians, Standards, et al.).

Magic Items and Vampire Powers (Demonic gift, etc) should only be declared as needed. After all, there are magic items in the game which "detect" magical items... so, ask yourself, what would be the point of those if all magic items were "visible"?

Indeed, but if you are to tell the mudane equal of the magic item, an experienced player very often tell what sort of magic armor your vampire has.

If he is wearing light armor he is almost certainty using Nightshroud. If he is wearing fullplate (4+) he is almost certantly wearing the Bloody Hauberk. If the vampire is wearing an "unspecified" armor he is almost certantly wearing the Flayed Hauberk.

We always played it that if you didn't have to tell your opponent what type your magic armor is, or if you have any untill he gets wounded, even if you don't have any normal armor.

Ex. Does that vampire have any armor? No mundane armor, no
....
Alright, two wounds with a -1 save modifier on the vamp,
now does he have any magic armor? Yes, Walach's bloody Hauberk

I'm fairly sure the enitre Belgian tournament crowd plays it like this... Apparently there's a difference between countries.

 

[Lord Fear]

Well if they play ETC rules - and much of Europe does, especially the tournament circuits in smaller countries - then you are completely and utterly wrong.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

Luckily we don't play by the ETC rules Belgium tournaments (unfortunalety sometimes) usually don't use any comp system.

 

[Zambula]

Mundane equipment should be visible and obviously, especially on units. (ie. Spear Skeletons, GW Grave Guard, etc.. as well as Musicians, Standards, et al.).

Magic Items and Vampire Powers (Demonic gift, etc) should only be declared as needed. After all, there are magic items in the game which "detect" magical items... so, ask yourself, what would be the point of those if all magic items were "visible"?

I came looking for this exact answer!

In our game (6th edition) the situation was: the vampire can fly due to vampiric powers. The enemy unit flies for losing the combat. The vampire had to pursue, so then he declared “I have wings, I catch you and destroy your whole unit”.
The opponent said “You had to declare that vampiric power at the beginning.

Your comment supports my opinion: the vampire powers are like the magic items: secret until exposed by need.

 

[Unas the slayer]

I came looking for this exact answer!

In our game (6th edition) the situation was: the vampire can fly due to vampiric powers. The enemy unit flies for losing the combat. The vampire had to pursue, so then he declared “I have wings, I catch you and destroy your whole unit”.
The opponent said “You had to declare that vampiric power at the beginning.

Your comment supports my opinion: the vampire powers are like the magic items: secret until exposed by need.

let's just put aside for a moment that this is an incredible feat of necromancy...

i could agree if this was a RPG game.
But WHFB is not: in 40k, you give a list of your army to the opponent where everything is listed. In tournaments, you cannot hold any information.

 

[Zambula]

let's just put aside for a moment that this is an incredible feat of necromancy...

i could agree if this was a RPG game.
But WHFB is not: in 40k, you give a list of your army to the opponent where everything is listed. In tournaments, you cannot hold any information.

I have to disagree here.

In WHFB 6th edition, magic items are normally hidden from the opponent at the start of the game. A player is not generally obliged to disclose to their opponent which magic items are in a unit or who specifically is carrying them.

Some gaming groups prefer to play with "open lists"(where armies are laid out and all special rules and items are discussed before deployment so that games are decided by tactics rather than surprises), but the standard rules rely on the excitement of not knowing exactly what powerful artifacts the enemy is fielding. There’s an interesting WD article about this option.

But because magic items are kept secret, there are several specific items, abilities, and spells in the game designed exclusively to force an opponent to reveal them:

• The Crystal Ball (Empire): Forces the enemy to reveal all "secrets" involving units within 12", which explicitly includes revealing which magic items are present and who is carrying them.
• The Skull Staff: Forces the enemy to reveal all magic items carried by models within 12".
• Divine Eye (Dark Elves): Forces the opponent to reveal the number of magic items in enemy units within 12", although they do not have to reveal what the items are or exactly who has them.
• Vaul's Unmaking (High Magic Spell): If successfully cast on an enemy unit, the owner must reveal all magic items in that unit to the caster.
• Perceptive (Archetype Ability from the Warbands game mode, basically same rules): Forces the opponent to reveal all "secrets" and hidden items (including magic items, Night Goblin Fanatics, and Assassins) within 18" of the character.

Another example would be the Fanatics NG, who may be (or may be not) hidden between the ranks of the Night Goblins. The possibility makes them a threat to the enemy cavalry. And then you have, OC, the assasins.

For tournaments I have seen that two list are given: One with the complete information (for the referees), another with the minimum info (for the opponent).

 

[Zambula]

I just found an example of the “two list for tournaments” thing from a modern 6th tournament organizer:

https://www.sutherlandshiregamers.org/wp-content/uploads/MOAB-2021-Warhammer-6th-Ed-Players-Pack.pdf

Allow me to quote:

HIDDEN ITEMS
The game of Warhammer is intended to be played with “hidden items” which means that
things like magic items and special abilities are intended to be hidden until the relevant time
for them to be revealed, also the rules for many magical items in the game are written with
this intent and are best used as a surprise.
For the purpose of writing your list for the event is that there are various items & abilities
that may be hidden on your list and revealed to your opponent during the game. This
includes magic items of all types (including magic banners), vampire bloodline powers,
knighty virtues, sacred spawnings, Dwarven runes, Ogre Big Names etc.
In the case of magic weapons and armour the mundane equivalent must be on the list, i.e. if
your character carries a magic shield then you can list “shield” on your list for that
character, if a suit of magical armour permit a model to have a 6+ save then it is considered
to be light armour and a 5+ save is considered to be heavy armour. Magic weapons should
be publicly listed as their weapon type such as great weapon, lance or spear. If there is no
specific weapon type is listed for that magic weapon it can be counted as a hand weapon on
your list. Please ask the TOs if you have any questions about list formatting.
You must list all your magic items and abilities (as per above) on a separate page as well as
which characters they are assigned to so that you can show this to your opponent when the
item is revealed.
An item is revealed in game when it is relevant to do so, for example if a character is
attacking with the sword of might (+1 strength) then you would reveal this when rolling to
wound. A character who has a ward save of some kind would reveal this when he has failed
his armour save and is required to roll for a ward save.

Source: Player’s. Pack forMOAB tournament in 2021

This also solves my own question, since the Vampire has flying due to Vampiric Powers, which will be revealed only when used.

 

[Unas the slayer]

For tournaments I have seen that two list are given: One with the complete information (for the referees), another with the minimum info (for the opponent).

Then i stand corrected. But i never went to WHFB tournaments, while i did with 40k


Edit: your "hidden item" quote pretty much closes the argument.

 

[Zambula]

Then i stand corrected. But i never went to WHFB tournaments, while i did with 40k


Edit: your "hidden item" quote pretty much closes the argument.

Damn the living! Yes, of course you are right and I misread your comment.

I wasted energy for nothing, it is a right punishment for the lack of attention.
I will now drink some blood and go back to my coffin.

PD: Didn’t know about the 40k thing, good to know!

 

[Unas the slayer]

I wasted energy for nothing, it is a right punishment for the lack of attention.

Well, not for nothing. I learned a new thing so the effort has been appreciated.