WHFB - 9th Edition

[najo]

I like all of these, my main issue though is that these make the whole process more complex. Can we come up with a suggestion that reduces the time taken to resolve the shot AND makes it more difficult to laser tag someone with it?

Well, the pieces we have to work with are BS, artillery dice, scatter dice and premeasured targeting. Anything else like charts, new components or different targeting rules adds complication.

What if we fine tune hero's suggestion. How's this?

1. Place marker.
2. Roll scatter and artillery dice. If hit, marker stays in place. If misfire, consult table as normal.
3. Otherwise, scatter the marker like you would with a stone thrower and then adjust the final position of the marker by moving up to your BS in inches in any direction closer to marker's original point.
4. Then bounce from there directly away from the cannon.

Interestingly, all scattering artillery could work with the BS adjustment.

 

[Sception]

I like that. Misfire - BS might be a bit too much scatter for initial placement from cannons, but it's certainly something that could be tried and tweaked.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

The problem I have with 8th is that things are getting too big and not much is being held sacred. For example:

A. Strength
S3 - average strength of a man w/ basic weapon
S4 - mightiest heroes, slow giant men/beasts, powerful weapons
S5 - Unholy or magical strength. Giant men/beasts with razor sharp claws or weapons. Slow giants, charging Calvary. great monstrosities of all kinds.
S6 - The strength of gods amongst men. Great monstrosities with magic weapons. The greatest, strongest monsters.
S7 - magical weapons that cut through steel like butter.
S8 - giant magical weapons that kill 5 men in a single blow
S9 - you die just by looking at it
S10 - cannonball

They need to hold strength sacred. Why is a chaos standard bearer as strong as a Treeman? If you look at them side by side, its hard to fathom. Why does the swing of an elf with a great sword equal the jaw strength of a mighty dragon?

Fixes
1. Cannons: S8 on the initial hit, and S5 on the bounce.
2. Great Weapons: +2 WS +1 Strength (more details below). Flails provide this in first round only. Lances remain the same (charges are crucial)
- A lot more

B. Weapon Skill
In order to keep the game interesting, if your WS is more than double, you get +1 strength.
A master of the sword can swat away your weapon and chop of your head with ease. WS is now more dynamic like strength. Having more than double WS is already rare, but a bit more common with weapon changes. Fear/Terror becomes huge (but still uncommon to proc). Hatred is now a big deal, giving more value to units like Dryads and Forsaken. Spells with To Hit bonuses become more valuable.

B. ASF / ASL
This has gotten out of hand. It time to remove this completely and replace with Agile/Sluggish. Unit has +2I or -2I. A unit only has re-rolls if their I is more than double their opponents.
Its cool if elves strike at the same time as generals, but not before them & with re-rolls. If a unit is slow enough, attackers will not miss.

C. War Machines
The proposed cannon idea is great, but I would say the reduction in strength is the most important, and keeps its simple. Both might be an ideal fix.

1. Line of Sight: War Machines need line of sight, in a forward arc. They pivot to face the target in the shooting phase, but they cannot pivot toward something that did not start in the forward arc of their base (therefore taking a turn to pivot). If they don't have a base, 50MM is assumed.

2. First Turn: If you go first, you may only fire a war machine on a 4+ (roll for each machine seperatly). If you win first turn, you may force your opponent to go first.
Most table top games you cannot fire war machines on the first turn, representing them "setting up".

3. Cannons:
A. Cannons fire (mostly) in a straight line. Any hill, obstacle, or forest between the second half of the "line" between the marker and the landing spot will block the shot (representing the decline before it hits the ground). For example if a monster is in front a of a forest, the cannonball will most likely hit a branch and explode on it's way down. If a unit is blocking the way and is hit, the first model in the way suffers a single S4 hit, no multiple wounds.

B. The explosion of the cannonball is represented in its D6 wounds.

C. No buckshot. Instead, a cannon may fire an explosive shot within 24". Resolve like a normal shot, except the first target it hits, it explodes with a S5 small template, centered on the unit hit.

D. For all cannon shots, randomize the wounds (after D6 is rolled) on multi-target models. On a 5+, the rider/handlers are hit.

4. Ballista: limit 2 per game

5. Stone Thrower:
A. Randomize the wounds (after D6 is rolled) on multi-target models. On a 5+, the rider/handlers are hit.

B. The "under the center" rule only applies on a direct hit, and is never more than S8. Id the shot scatters at all, the entire template is the lower strength.

C. If a shot is attempted at a unit which the stone thrower cannot trace any line of site, or in which the crew "would have" 6+ or worse to hit with a shooting attack, the strength is reduced to 3 if hit (no center or multiple wounds). Like cannons, a shot may not be attempted at any unit that starts outside the forward arc.

D. Magic
1. Wizards level 1-2 may never use more than 4 dice to cast a spell, and level 3 may use 5 dice.

2. Only a level 4 may ever cast a "boosted" version of a spell

3. Death Magic gets a new dice on a 6+ for each model slain. Characters may always take a ward save (if they have one) versus every spell.

4. No more dispel scroll
Anything mandatory in every list takes away from balance. Building lists around a scroll is not fun. (Tweaks to MR below)

E. Ward Saves
1. Ward saves are capped at 4+, no matter what (chaos can still get 1 re-rolls)

2. Regeneration is a ward save, eliminated by fire. If a model has both ward and regeneration, and is hit by fire, no ward saves may be taken.

F. Magic Resistance
1. Magic resistance still confers a ward to a unit against spells (capped at 4+).

2. A Wizard gets +2 to dispel for each MR level on the unit being targeted.

3. A unit get +1 WS for each MR level while being attacked with magical weapons.

G. Flammable
Units with this special rule may not take any wards against flaming attacks (no more 2 wounds)

DBG/Dragonhelm: The model has a 3+ ward save versus flaming attacks, that may even be taken by models with the flammable special rule. For every failed save versus a flaming attack, the wound is multiplied by D2.

H. Chariots
Chariots can be assaulted like a war machine from behind. If the crew dies, the unit is removed as a casualty.

Conclusion
Obviously there are a lot of tweaks to be made, but I think these changes would make for much more balanced and competitive games. I'll probably do some more tweaks as I think of things. Let me know if anything sounds crazy.

 

[John Rainbow]

How about you place the marker where you want the shot to be and roll the scatter dice to see where it actually lands then again to see where the bounce goes?

 

[Infernal Skull]

I really think the suggestion of cannon wounds multiplying to D3+1 rather than D6 is the best and simplest solution. Minimum of 2 max of 4. So, Hero characters will still get pulped, as will all 1-wound models, and an average roll will still kill Lords with 3 wounds. 3-wound monstrous infantry will still be killed on an average roll. The important thing is that cannons can't kill expensive monsters in a single shot anymore, which I think is what we're striving for here, but 2 cannons will still most likely take them out.

On the cannon's side, the amount of wounds they inflict goes from a wildly unpredictable 1-6 to a more reliable 2-4. GW could even bring back the S7 Wound= instant death for Chariots if they still want Chariots to be more vulnerable to cannonballs.

Edit: I'll add that if we're trying to make cannons less accurate-- A cannonball shouldn't miss a unit of infantry or cavalry, but it is more realistic for it to be more difficult to peg a dragon flying across the battlefield. Unfortunately, there's no way to make variable accuracy rules without overly cluttering the game play. Having a cannonball that creams infantry and still reliably hits a monster but doesn't damage it as much can be interpreted as an abstraction of the cannon being less accurate against the monster; it's represents a more grazing hit.

 

[GreenGiant]

How are you doing your math? Are you factoring in 2 bounces? Why are you doing 7" away from the target? Ever heard that saying 10" from the back?

My math was kind of quick, basically it was 7" from the front of the model. I have always used 7" as my starting position from targets I wanted to hit specifically, like characters in a unit. With a large monster the distance would be different.

I did assume a bounce, but I simplified it quite a bit since there are quite a few different scenarios to work out. I assumed a 6+ Ward Save I believe (can't remember exactly).

I really think the suggestion of cannon wounds multiplying to D3+1 rather than D6 is the best and simplest solution. Minimum of 2 max of 4. So, Hero characters will still get pulped, as will all 1-wound models, and an average roll will still kill Lords with 3 wounds. 3-wound monstrous infantry will still be killed on an average roll. The important thing is that cannons can't kill expensive monsters in a single shot anymore, which I think is what we're striving for here, but 2 cannons will still most likely take them out.

I agree, that is a very simple solution. The only thing I would want to add to this is that Monster and Rider are not both hit by a single cannonball. Maybe just make the Rider never hit from a cannon. BUT have the rider always get hit by a Stone Thrower (Ok, ok that last part was a joke)

 

[Infernal Skull]

I agree, that is a very simple solution. The only thing I would want to add to this is that Monster and Rider are not both hit by a single cannonball. Maybe just make the Rider never hit from a cannon. BUT have the rider always get hit by a Stone Thrower :tongue: (Ok, ok that last part was a joke)

I'd be okay with templates (both cannonball and stone thrower) treating ridden models as "one model" and randomizing which element takes the hit (1-4 mount or 5-6 rider). Also go back to randomizing shooting hits on a cannon and counting the crew as actual models.

 

[GreenGiant]

I'd be okay with templates (both cannonball and stone thrower) treating ridden models as "one model" and randomizing which element takes the hit (1-4 mount or 5-6 rider). Also go back to randomizing shooting hits on a cannon and counting the crew as actual models.

It would be interesting if a cannon hit the rider on a 5+, but a stone thrower hit the rider on a 3+. Because of the nature of each attack (would be too complicated, but would be fun to see).

Agreed on the randomizing. Giving the crew a built in soft cover save and you'd be done, otherwise it would be a swing in the wrong direction (shooting at T 7 is too hard now for non-warmachines).

4. No more dispel scroll
Anything mandatory in every list takes away from balance. Building lists around a scroll is not fun. (Tweaks to MR below)

This I 100% agree with. (and most other items on your post )

One of my major complaints when I played with Dwarfs before the new book were similar to this. I had to take a runesmith (who was inferior to any of the other Heroes in every way, except he gave dispel dice). If my opponent didn't take Magic (or really enough to matter, like a single level 1 for example), I instantly wished I had just taken a Thane, since the runesmith's points were almost wasted. Now their functionality is less dependent on the enemy taking magic.

 

[Infernal Skull]

2. Regeneration is a ward save, eliminated by fire. If a model has both ward and regeneration, and is hit by fire, no ward saves may be taken.

Regen and Wards are already either/or. If you have both, you can only use one.

D. Magic
1. Wizards level 1-2 may never use more than 4 dice to cast a spell, and level 3 may use 5 dice.
2. Only a level 4 may ever cast a "boosted" version of a spell
3. Death Magic gets a new dice on a 6+ for each model slain. Characters may always take a ward save (if they have one) versus every spell.
4. No more dispel scroll
Anything mandatory in every list takes away from balance. Building lists around a scroll is not fun. (Tweaks to MR below)

1. 6th edition handled magic much better: A Wizard could roll one more dice than his wizard level when casting. So Level 1s could roll 2 dice, and Level 4s could roll up to 5. If we used that and still added the Wizard's level to the casting roll, it would be in line with the amount of power a wizard can put out.

2. I think the higher casting difficulty on the boosted spells already kind of dictates that a higher level Wizard is more likely to be able to cast them. No need for an additional rule. But I see where you're coming from, a Level 1 Wizard six-dicing a spell with a casting value of 25 is kind of silly. But hey, six-dicing is aiming for Irresistible Force, and that's also going to be a Miscast for that poor Level 1 who is meddling with powers he doesn't fully understand! So it kind of balances out already.

3. Holy Living Christ! I've never really used the Lore of Death, so I wasn't familiar with its Lore Attribute. That's ridiculous, you have a better chance of generating power dice from killing things with the spells than you do from the initial WOM roll or Channeling! And yeah, getting an extra dice on a 6+ is in line with things like The Hunger, which also has its effect on 6+. And no Ward saves vs Purple Sun, when the model is slain outright, is lame. I know what Lores my VC are using from now on. Man, Lore of the Vampires is sooo yesterday!

4. I used to take dispel scrolls when you were allowed to have multiples, but now that it's one-only, and people six-dice Irresistible the really powerful spells anyway, it never seems worth it. I think the fact that players treat it as an auto-include is a holdover from previous editions. But it shouldn't go away. We need every opportunity to shut down enemy casting, because so many spells are just out of hand.

 

[HERO]

2. I think the higher casting difficulty on the boosted spells already kind of dictates that a higher level Wizard is more likely to be able to cast them. No need for an additional rule. But I see where you're coming from, a Level 1 Wizard six-dicing a spell with a casting value of 25 is kind of silly. But hey, six-dicing is aiming for Irresistible Force, and that's also going to be a Miscast for that poor Level 1 who is meddling with powers he doesn't fully understand! So it kind of balances out already.

Which 25+ to cast powers is your Lv.1 shooting for? Because all the really dangerous ones do not require 25+.

 

[theknightofjello]

After reading the Nagash story line book. I think we are going to see a lot of changes in 9th edition. Chiefly the lore of Death is going to be radically different and I think we will see something along the lines of 40k ally's. The story is definitely pointing that way with some of the makeshift alliances that occurred in the book. Oh and hopefully there will be a whole slew of new characters

 

[najo]

Regen and Wards are already either/or. If you have both, you can only use one.



1. 6th edition handled magic much better: A Wizard could roll one more dice than his wizard level when casting. So Level 1s could roll 2 dice, and Level 4s could roll up to 5. If we used that and still added the Wizard's level to the casting roll, it would be in line with the amount of power a wizard can put out.

2. I think the higher casting difficulty on the boosted spells already kind of dictates that a higher level Wizard is more likely to be able to cast them. No need for an additional rule. But I see where you're coming from, a Level 1 Wizard six-dicing a spell with a casting value of 25 is kind of silly. But hey, six-dicing is aiming for Irresistible Force, and that's also going to be a Miscast for that poor Level 1 who is meddling with powers he doesn't fully understand! So it kind of balances out already.

3. Holy Living Christ! I've never really used the Lore of Death, so I wasn't familiar with its Lore Attribute. That's ridiculous, you have a better chance of generating power dice from killing things with the spells than you do from the initial WOM roll or Channeling! And yeah, getting an extra dice on a 6+ is in line with things like The Hunger, which also has its effect on 6+. And no Ward saves vs Purple Sun, when the model is slain outright, is lame. I know what Lores my VC are using from now on. Man, Lore of the Vampires is sooo yesterday!

4. I used to take dispel scrolls when you were allowed to have multiples, but now that it's one-only, and people six-dice Irresistible the really powerful spells anyway, it never seems worth it. I think the fact that players treat it as an auto-include is a holdover from previous editions. But it shouldn't go away. We need every opportunity to shut down enemy casting, because so many spells are just out of hand.

1) & 2) I think capping the number of dice a wizard can use does solve some of the six dicing issues. I think maybe +2 dice over level. The other option is giving miscast affects based on number of dice used. You could also go to two or more ones causes miscast and failure and two or more success is total power. If you get a miscast, it cancels out total power.
3) lore of death is good, and it's lore attribute should be changed as it doesn't work with half its spells. But it's also unreliable in aggressive vampire armies. Lore of vampires is WAY more stable and supports vampire armies looking to close quickly. Lore of death works better for defensive armies. I'd actually say the overlooked lore is shadow.
4) I agree on to many people taking dispell scroll. I never take them myself. I think the problem is partially not enough good arcane items. You need things competing with those arcane slots. I do think dispell scrolls have a place in the game though.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Which 25+ to cast powers is your Lv.1 shooting for? Because all the really dangerous ones do not require 25+.

Not referencing a particular spell, I just threw out a number. But Purple Sun & Wind of Death are both 25, Kadon is 20, Birona's is 24, Dwellers is 21... you get the idea. There are plenty of high value, deadly spells that a level 1 can throw 6 dice at hoping for 2 sixes.

I think the problem is partially not enough good arcane items. You need things competing with those arcane slots. I do think dispell scrolls have a place in the game though.

Book of Ashur (+1 to cast & dispel) is my auto-include. It's usually on my Necromancer Lord.

 

[najo]

Not referencing a particular spell, I just threw out a number. But Purple Sun & Wind of Death are both 25, Kadon is 20, Birona's is 24, Dwellers is 21... you get the idea. There are plenty of high value, deadly spells that a level 1 can throw 6 dice at hoping for 2 sixes.



Book of Ashur (+1 to cast & dispel) is my auto-include. It's usually on my Necromancer Lord.

Thats a great item, but it doesn't stop the obligatory scroll caddy that the last 3 editions has had. We need 50 points or less arcane items that are on par with dispell scroll. Like make some of the one use items more than one use, earthing rod being a good one. Or adjust some, like forbidden rod could be less lethal and produce fewer dice and it be more useful. What if it gave you an extra dice every turn but you roll a d6 and take a wound on a 4+ with no saves allowed.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Thats a great item, but it doesn't stop the obligatory scroll caddy that the last 3 editions has had. We need 50 points or less arcane items that are on par with dispell scroll. Like make some of the one use items more than one use, earthing rod being a good one. Or adjust some, like forbidden rod could be less lethal and produce fewer dice and it be more useful. What if it gave you an extra dice every turn but you roll a d6 and take a wound on a 4+ with no saves allowed.

But there aren't scroll caddies anymore. You get one dispel scroll for the army and that's it. That's why I don't think it's a problem. But I agree that there should be more useful arcane items. Honestly, I rarely consider them unless they add to the power dice pool or offer a permanent buff.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Alright. I just got back from a game and the NUMBER ONE thing that needs to be adjusted in 9th edition is the return of awarding half victory points for units brought below half strength. The only reason death star units are a problem is because they yield no points unless they're dead, but they practically can't be killed over the course of a battle.

We never had much of a problem with them in 6th & 7th, but part of that was a cap on unit size. I don't think we need a return to caps on the maximum size (and GW probably wouldn't because they can sell more models), but awarding half points alone would curtail the dreaded death stars.

Also, a return to the old psychology rules when people had to take a lot more panic tests would discourage people from putting all their eggs in one basket when it has more opportunity to run off. More panicking units would also speed up the games as well. (Anyone else notice the games taking longer now than they did in the past?)