Why are Black Knights so good?

[Ninja Zombie]

Just curious on this point. Everyone seems to rave about how good the Black Knights bus is, but, to be honest, I'm not seeing it.

Now yes, you are resurrecting D6+4 26pt models with a Lvl4 LoV caster, which is great and yes, they are an excellent delivery system for Vamp Characters, but surely that's the Vamp Characters that make them good? The ethereal movement is also cool, as is the great save, but it doesn't make up for what I think is the biggest problem:

At the end of the day, they have a single WS3 S6 attack, with KB. It's not bad it's only a single attack, and they'll almost always be hitting on 4s. They seem to lack the attacks needed to cause sufficient casualties to break most units, as we all know that cavalry struggles against infantry this edition.

To me, the best cavalry are the ones that have multiple attacks, like Dragon Princes. Dragon Princes are only 3pts more and, although they can't move through walls and be resurrected as easily, they churn out 2 WS5 S5 attacks each which, thanks to ASF and I6, are almost always going to be re-rolling to hit. And they have a 6+ ward and a 2+ ward against flaming attacks, as well as a 2+ save.

Cold One Knights aren't quite as good as DPs, I'd say, but they get a WS5 S6 attack each, which is probably re-rolling to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound, as well as 2 WS3 S4 attacks from their mounts.

So, why are Black Knights so good?

 

[TMS]

As you said yourself, the characters in the unit are what makes it good. They're easy to resurrect (though only 1+wizard level, not D6+level) and importantly they're not frenzied like blood knights are so you can control them easier.

Their low amount of attacks aren't that bad when you've got the unit loaded with red fury vampires.

 

[Demian]

If you want that unit to do well on it's own (-ish), they must have Banner of the Barrows. Other Cavalry (except Bretonnia, perhaps) are useless against them in the 2nd round and beyond of CC.

Hitting on 3s against every Unit makes them more likely to get a KB off and there goes that 1+ Armour Save. They are S4 T4 KB mobile unit, with the slight wildcard of Spectral Steeds. From time to time, you can get your Nightmare-characters out of the unit, so that it regains his Ethereal movement, and charge some stuff from behind a building, etc. Wight Kings here are like... super Hell Knights, with all the benefits of any Black Knight, but 3 awesome wounds, and T5 that can deal with anything while the Knights chop some heads off.

And, of course, that they are Special instead of Rare... (now, if only Blood Knights were Special...)

 

[Aedin]

T4 actually makes for good wound mitigation. Until your opponent gets str 6 but most things in the game have str 5 or lower.

Additionally, having a 2+ save is way better statistically than the 4+ the foot guard get.

And they do get a str of 6 on the charge which is perfect when combined with your characters for that added punch. I can speak from experience if it wasn't for the extra 3 wounds that they caused on the charge I would have been chewed up by an Ogre gut star.

Its defiantly the characters COMBINED with the black knights that make a synergy of death and destruction.

 

[Vipoid]

To me, the best cavalry are the ones that have multiple attacks, like Dragon Princes. Dragon Princes are only 3pts more and, although they can't move through walls and be resurrected as easily, they churn out 2 WS5 S5 attacks each which, thanks to ASF and I6, are almost always going to be re-rolling to hit. And they have a 6+ ward and a 2+ ward against flaming attacks, as well as a 2+ save.

Thing is though, the black knights aren't there to inflict damage - they're there to get the vampire characters into combat. See, if you used blood knights, then you're basically wasting their attacks - your entire front rank is vampires and/or wight kings, so your actual knights are only going to get 1 supporting attack each.


Another way of looking at it would be to consider what it would be like if black knights didn't exist:

- You could still mount a vampire to improve his save, but he suffers with regard to the all-important LoS roll.
- If you want to run vampires as a unit, then you're going to be stuck in M4 units (or sitting on the side of a M6 unit, and forfeiting your LoS privileges).
- You're either going to be forking out for a much larger accompanying unit, or suffering from increased fragility (even GG only get a 4+ save at best, as opposed to the Black Knight's 2+ save).
- You're going to be moving at about half the speed of Black Knights, making it harder for you to outmanoeuvre the enemy.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I do agree that the bkbus is a good tactic on paper. And also works out quite ok on the field alot of the time.
On the other hand, it makes it a very costly unit, easily worth well over 1k points (if not far more depending on how many characters) and denying you alot of room to buy some well-needed distractions (at least in my experience).
Plus this makes your tactic go one way: you have to move into CC with that BKbus asap, forfeiting any IP-bubble for the rest of your core, which is going to hang around and be quite useless for the entire game depending on your matchup.
Also, if you have the bad luck to face a few doomdivers or any other nasty artillery, or lets say; a well played magic phase by your opponent.... The only real target in your army is that freaking BK-deathstar. 2 unlucky HIT! by a doomdiver and there probably wont be much left of your silly BK-bus, its miraculously turned into a BK-moped.

Then it leaves you hanging on the luck of magicdice.... the most unreliable part of the entire game, yet oh so crucial to the synergy of that BK-bus... Get your IoN dispelled, scrolled, shitrolled-for-windsofmagic in that one phase that you really needed it and your entire tactic is gone to hell.

As you probably already guessed, i am not the biggest fan of it, especially in those 2200-2400 games where a BK-bus takes up the entire army if you want to build it right.

As can vampires easily redirect, so can alot of other armies force your silly BK-bus to do things you really dont want to. They might not be frenzied, but harpies and other crap are easily put in their path to make them move ways you dont want to move.

Obviously the BK-bus is a great hammer, and alot of enemy targets will be easily destroyed by your raging vamps, still i find it to be a gamble everytime io build a BK-bus list. Its all or nothing, theres not much room for anything else.




My advice would be:
If its under 3k game?

- Field shitloads of wolves, and i mean shitloads with at least one vamp with "Summon creatures of the night"
- Try to field some batswarms and fell bats as well to make even better use of that racial ability
- Anything that you still have points left over for has to be fastmoving and preferably ethereal to make that extra threat count and take away some of the focus away from that almighty deathstardeluxe (Mortis Engine 2 if possible? is a must to get a save on that bus)

 

[Ninja Zombie]

As I thought, a lot of people have said something along the lines of "they're a delivery system for a Vamp Lord". By that logic, half the units in the book are automatically good. I see a lot of people saying bad things about Grave Guard and yes, they're slower and less durable, but they're also half as cheap and will do more damage themselves when they get into combat, they're a decent delivery system, surely?

The main problem with a BK bus is, at max, you'll have what 3 ranks? That's still not going to break steadfast on most scary deathstar/hordes, so your Vamp Lord is going to be stuck in the same combat all game, whereas I can get tons of ranks much more easily with Infantry.

 

[Valle]

Skittelz... You have already condemmed that BK-Bus to its doom before a single die have been rolled. Its one of the most popular tactics out there for a reason. And whether you like it or not, that unit on its own can potentially clear the table.

 

[Vipoid]

As I thought, a lot of people have said something along the lines of "they're a delivery system for a Vamp Lord". By that logic, half the units in the book are automatically good. I see a lot of people saying bad things about Grave Guard and yes, they're slower and less durable, but they're also half as cheap and will do more damage themselves when they get into combat, they're a decent delivery system, surely?

They're half as cheap, but you'll be needing more of them. And, the movement aspect makes a lot of difference. In addition, if you're putting vampires in GG, then they'll have 3+ saves, at best. On the other hand, if you give them barded mounts, then you can have a front rank of characters with 1+ or 2+ saves.

The main problem with a BK bus is, at max, you'll have what 3 ranks? That's still not going to break steadfast on most scary deathstar/hordes, so your Vamp Lord is going to be stuck in the same combat all game, whereas I can get tons of ranks much more easily with Infantry.

Eh?

Which Deathstars are steadfast? o.o

I thought the point of a deathstar was to win combat? Who wants to spend most of their points on a single unit... only for it to be so crap at combat that it needs to rely on steadfast?

And, in terms of chaff units with steadfast... why is your bus going after them? Surely that's the whole reason why you have M8 - so you can get to the optimum targets? It'd be like if Empire players complained about their cannons because they shot them exclusively at cheap infantry. :tongue:

 

[Skittelz1981]

Skittelz... You have already condemmed that BK-Bus to its doom before a single die have been rolled. Its one of the most popular tactics out there for a reason. And whether you like it or not, that unit on its own can potentially clear the table.

Then you havent read it well.

 

[Valle]

Skittelz... You have already condemmed that BK-Bus to its doom before a single die have been rolled. Its one of the most popular tactics out there for a reason. And whether you like it or not, that unit on its own can potentially clear the table.

Then you havent read it well.

I Think that I have... You talk about unlucky doomdiver hit and the fact that it can be redirected... Well, so can any hammer unit, but when all is said and done, we are more than likely to win the deployment. Dont get me wrong, I agree with allot of your points, but you can list flaws and merrits of any single unit or tactic out there the way you did with the BK-bus.

 

[Aedin]

As I thought, a lot of people have said something along the lines of "they're a delivery system for a Vamp Lord". By that logic, half the units in the book are automatically good. I see a lot of people saying bad things about Grave Guard and yes, they're slower and less durable, but they're also half as cheap and will do more damage themselves when they get into combat, they're a decent delivery system, surely?

The main problem with a BK bus is, at max, you'll have what 3 ranks? That's still not going to break steadfast on most scary deathstar/hordes, so your Vamp Lord is going to be stuck in the same combat all game, whereas I can get tons of ranks much more easily with Infantry.

A BK bus should do so much damage that 3 ranks should be all you need to break steadfast.

And I have played around with GG and the fact is that they are only good with a double handed wep and the 5+ save left them is not any good whatsoever because of str modification from your opponent. You buy more models yes but you loose so many because of the lack of save and combat res. Whereas, the BK bus don't bleed combat res and consistently wins combats with good saves.

 

[Demian]

There is no point & click in Vampire Count's army. Everything must be considered to play, synergize and adapt to your own army, as well as your opponent's (even in an all-comer list). So there are a lot of points to consider with Black Knights:

They go well along with hexwraiths when your enemy has a ton of chaff to throw at them.
You only ever need 1 march and the Terrorgheist can reach the place on the table to melt pricey stuff
You have chaff of your own, so Dire Wolves help you set a charge against other Cavalry, which is almost a death sentence to enemies.
They can out-flank a Monstrous Infantry star and inflict quite a lot of damage on the charge... or ignore it completely and go for the easy kills.

Black Knights = fast Undead, along with Flyiers, Ethereals and stuff, they also protect the V Lord from missile fire and can be raised quite nicely, which other Cavalry, even with lore of Life, can't.

Fast Undeads are scary Undead ( I read that here somewhere, but don't remember from who! D: )

And the final point... if not Black Knights, how else are you going to bring a Vampire Lord's terror into the heart of the enemy? Sure, he can go alone, but few armies allow you such luxury without the threat of a cannonball or warmachine fire. Like the lore in our book: Every Undead save for the important Characters are expendable. They serve so that their masters can win (a little cruel on our skelies, but still...) if they have to die so that you can get a Cavalry-base sized monster-killer, lord-slayer, infantry-muncher, so be it!

 

[Blutsauger]

As I thought, a lot of people have said something along the lines of "they're a delivery system for a Vamp Lord". By that logic, half the units in the book are automatically good.

Well, no. Only the cavalry are good as delivery systems, because infantry are too slow.

And of the cavalry, only Black Knights are cheap enough to buy in sufficient numbers to protect the Vampire characters inside.

So that pretty much makes them the best choice.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

And of the cavalry, only Black Knights are cheap enough to buy in sufficient numbers to protect the Vampire characters inside.

Well, actually you have to pick between black knights and blood knights, because non-Ethereal characters can't join Ethereal units, and none of our Vampires are Ethereal, so none of them can join hexenwraiths. Between black knights and blood knights, black knights are definitely the more affordable.

 

[Aedin]

And of the cavalry, only Black Knights are cheap enough to buy in sufficient numbers to protect the Vampire characters inside.

Well, actually you have to pick between black knights and blood knights, because non-Ethereal characters can't join Ethereal units, and none of our Vampires are Ethereal, so none of them can join hexenwraiths. Between black knights and blood knights, black knights are definitely the more affordable.

and blood knights chew up your rare points allotment way to fast to be a viable bus.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Fast Undeads are scary Undead ( I read that here somewhere, but don't remember from who! D: )

That was me talking about why I don't like Corpse Carts. And showing love to all my Flyers. And it's one of the big perks of a BK bus, too. Those dudes are super fast, and being able to pick what you want to do and when you want to do it is huge. The third rank is there to get your Killmeister Brand Blender Vampire to his target in one piece. Run enough chaff interference and think about Fell Bats for war machines--that's about all the support it takes.

 

[Zully]

ive only recently discovered the joys of black knights, its great having a unit that your opponent underestimates just how FAST it can be, I actually winkled a highly tactical player into ADVANCING TOWARDS my flanking black knight bus, assuming that I wouldn't be in range, not only did I make it into range, but I had distance to spare, que nasty gibbing swirl of melee with lots of choppy action and me making various squelching noises and bye bye huge saurus block + general in turn 3

I will now be running two black knight units, one draw my opponent out and take head on, the other to flank to break steadfast on the bigger blocks my opponents take

I have no doubt there may be more efficient ways of doing it or better units out there, but I like them

 

[Ninja Zombie]

Eh, most people are putting forward good arguments, and I guess I haven't played a game with them yet, perhaps I'll do some proxies and give them a whirl. A strong cavalry unit isn't something I'd normally run, so that'd be nice for a change.

What kind of characters do people like to put in the bus then? I was thinking a unit of 13 with a Blender Lord (lvl4 LoV) and a Hero Vamp (lvl1 Shadow). That's over 1000pts in one unit though, and this is at 2400.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

At 2400 i put 3 characters in there. Blender lord and baby blenders.

 

[Aedin]

In a 2400 pt game I run in 13 black knights FC with +1 movement banner.

Vampire Lord
LvL 2 caster (LoV)
Barded Nightmare
Great Weapon
Heavy Armor
Nightshroud
Talisman of Preservation
The Other Trickster's Shard
Beguile
Quickblood
Red Fury

Vampire
LvL 2 caster (death)
Army Battle Bearer
Barded Nightmare
Lance
Heavy Armor
Shield
Book of Arkhan
Dawnstone

This Vamp I put in a flanking unit of 5 blood knights. However, i guess he could go into the BK buss for the beard factor...

Vampire
LvL 2 caster (death)
Barded Nightmare
Lance
Heavy Armor
Shield
Enchanted Sheild
Dispel Scroll
Obsidian Trinket
Potion of Foolhardiness
Red Fury
Red Fury

 

[Valle]

Dont be worried about having to many points in there... Sure its putting all your eggs in one basket, but if you lose that unit you will have been very unlucky or played badly and deserved to lose it. If you play things right, then its points denial as well, meaning that your opponent who would probably like to avoid that unit, wont have allot of points to pick up elsewhere.

 

[Deathless Dreamer]

Black Knights might be decent... but why stop there? Why not go the whole hog and take Blood Knights instead?

 

[Valle]

Black Knights might be decent... but why stop there? Why not go the whole hog and take Blood Knights instead?

I think someone covered it earlier, but it could have been another thread... Blood knights cost almost double, yet have the same survivability. You wont get much use of what you paid ekstra for since you lord and heroes will take up 3 of the front slots and the guys in second rank will only have 1 attack. A blender and two mini blenders can destroy any unit out there, so they dont need the ekstra power from blood knights, they do however need protection, and the added number of models you can get in a black knight unit will give them that... Plus, blood knights come out of your rare, and you really want that tbat as well.

 

[Deathless Dreamer]

Black Knights might be decent... but why stop there? Why not go the whole hog and take Blood Knights instead?

I think someone covered it earlier, but it could have been another thread... Blood knights cost almost double, yet have the same survivability. You wont get much use of what you paid ekstra for since you lord and heroes will take up 3 of the front slots and the guys in second rank will only have 1 attack. A blender and two mini blenders can destroy any unit out there, so they dont need the ekstra power from blood knights, they do however need protection, and the added number of models you can get in a black knight unit will give them that... Plus, blood knights come out of your rare, and you really want that tbat as well.

Yes but who says you have to put them in two ranks?

Also Black Knights don't get a 2+ armour save, or a banner that gives them a 4+ ward against all ranged attacks, which can be buffed up to 2+ against magic with an obsidian amulet.

Black Knights don't have 3 attacks at S7 on the charge and S5 in all subsequent turns of combat.

Black Knights don't get Weapon Skill 5.

Black Knights don't get Initiative 5.

They don't get a champion that has 4 attacks that can take a magical weapon and get ASF at Strength 5.

They can't march without a vampiric character nearby.

Blood Knights can also be raised. Maybe not as effectively as Black Knights, but they can still be raised.

Given their sheer killing power in all turns of combat, especially on the first turn, Blood Knights will rarely lose combat, especially when joined by powerful heroes and a blender lord all casting IoN every turn.

Okay they can be frenzy baited due to forced overrun, but even if they are the chances of them dying are still slim.