Why have we not talked about a Summon Ceatures of the Nigt List

[Justin Van Carstein]

I have been doing some studying for 2500 points. One thing I have been considering is the Vampires ability to Summon Creatures of the Night. Dire Wolves, Fell Bats and Bat Swarms are all very cost effective and can easily be bumped to large units after 2 magic phases.

Manfred (Dark Acolyte/Summon Creatures) can roll 3 dice at 12+ INVO and raise a great deal of models.

Please give me your thoughts

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

Because of how combat rez of multiple combats works with crumble, Bat Swarms are awful imo. They have a lot of potential to be sweet as a support unit if they had some rule where they didn't apply to your combat rez in multiple combats. I don't know how exactly that would work, but still.

Dire Wolves and Fell Bats are FANTASTIC… at chaffing and redirecting. You don't need to be raising more bodies for them to do this. In fact, more bodies are completely wasted most of the time because they get wiped out by about a million combat rez when they are doing their job, which is fine for the purpose they are fulfilling of redirectors.

I think you could maybe do something cute/weird with massive amounts of Wolves and Summon Creatures of the Night, but I don't see it being very competitive. That also seems like a pain to field as far as space is concerned. You're talking like 80ish Wolves to fill core requirement haha. Maybe run some Fell Bat units with SummonCotN and beef them up to be able to take out some war machines?

There may be some utility in the Summon power depending on your list, but I don't see "building around it" as being particularly effective.

 

[najo]

I agree with all of Patrunkenphat's points and that wolves have potential as a summon creatures lists. The main issue is that you can't safely deliver your blenders through these units. The vampire counts as either infantry or cavalry, while the wolves are beasts. So the vampire can't get look out sir and gets stuck on the outside of the unit if on foot. If on foot he slows them down to much, so nightmare or hellsteed is the only way to go. He can then join the unit properly, but still can't LOS. Plus, combo charging with these units is suicide for your vampire and his unit of knights or whatever. Its just messy compared to other options.

 

[Von Calyptra]

I tried Summon Creatures of the Night in my last game, versus Skaven. My army contained 2 units of 5 dire wolves, a unit of 5 fell bats, and a unit of 2 bat swarms. The bat swarms and one of the wolf darts were out of range of Invocation, but in the first turn the fell bats went from 5 models to 8, whereupon I ran out of models, and in the second turn the closer dire wolf unit went up to 20, whereupon I ran out of models. The large unit of bats threatening his warmachines prompted my opponent to charge them with the unit containing his warlord, which left him in a very poor position and allowed me to blend his general with my vampire. The large unit of dire wolves charged and tarpitted the skaven slaves for the rest of the game. (My opponent did not appreciate it when I pointed out that the skaven slaves were being tarpitted by a cheaper unit, but I couldn't help myself.)
I miscast on three dice in both turns, the second time losing a few magic levels, so from turn 3 on my opponent was able to consistently dispel my Invocation attempts.

One game is a small sample size.

I took the power because I already had the relevant units in the army in a list that relies on the vampire lord for its magic rather than a necromancer, so I figured that in one turn the power would pay for itself.

The biggest problem I had, other than running out of models and miscasting, was fitting the models in. In the future I will need to remember to leave more space around the units in the early game in case they balloon.

I felt like there was a definite psychological element to the game. I think my opponent watched my units suddenly get huge (I also had a unit of zombies that went up to 60-something), and panicked a little. (Although he was right: 8 fell bats flapping around behind his lines after eating his warp lighting cannon would have been really bad for him.) It's not just a matter of watching your opponent's units increase in size; the battlefield role of those units changes, and I think that can throw people off.

Now I just need to buy more dire wolves and fell bats.

 

[Justin Van Carstein]

Thanks Patrunkenphat & Najo! I think Von Calyptra hit my point on the head though. There should be no intentions to write a list around the idea, its a side ploy. If your not going to take our redirectors seriously then you'll have to deal with 10 more of the them and the additional 40 zombies I intended to raise. I mathed it out ad for

10x Dire Wolves
5x Dire Wolves
2x Fell Bats
2x Fell Bats
1 x bat swarm

254 points and it covers some core. Fill out the rest of core with typical stuff. Mannfred/ Baby Vamp cast 12" Invo back to back and avg dice rolling increases by over 500 points.

I'm going to play a series of games with this and I will keep ya'll posted with the results.

 

[Von Calyptra]

Bat swarms are unit size: 2+.

I also don't see a list built around it accomplishing much, but if you've got the relevant units and you're not relying on a necromancer for your primary source of Invocations, I think it allows for some pretty dynamic shenanigans.

I played the list again today against Bretonnians, so my sample size is now 2! My dire wolf units both got huge, but because I was fighting Brets, they were now just big units of redirectors rather than little units of redirectors. My fell bats were out of range; they were off on the flank attempting to sack a trebuchet, but they were intercepted and destroyed by pegasus knights, which were then in turn destroyed by my grave guard. My bat swarms increased from two bases to four, which gave them enough wounds to flutter across the table, eat the trebuchet my poor fell bats never made it to, and then attack and route a unit of archers. I've never been so proud of them.

 

[Quinten]

I think the major plus for summon creatures of the knight is that if it does not do anything it is cheap enough that it does not matter. It still is a nice trick to have up your sleaze however.

 

[Quinten]

Sleeve not sleaze sorry

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

Still not a fan of Bat Swarms, but Fell Bats and Dire Wolves are great tactical units, so I say go for it. If anything, I could see it giving you flexibility against war machine armies where your 2 Fell Bat chaff unit can turn into war machine hunters if needed.

 

[grix]

I kinda agree with what has been said here. I come from a Beastmen mindset where chaff really is needed to win the games. While chaff is important to VC I don't see it AS important to this army as to my BM.

But being able to beef up your redirectors from redirectors to war machine hunters is quite valuable. A hell of a lot more than 10 points IMHO.

I'd say take for what it brings as a plus but definitely do not build your list around it.