Why I'm NOT looking forward to a new Army Book

[Sception]

Yes, I've read vampire books or battles that had warmachines in them. Back when Undead was just undead, Von Carstein was described as using screaming skull catapaults to launch the remains of the dead of previous battles over the battlements of empire cities under seige as a terror tactic, and I seem to recall something about skeletal/zombie archers/crossbows/something during the storm of chaos campaign (though I wasn't playing heavily at the time, so I could be confusing it with the von carstein appendix list an army book or so back in time.

In any event, neither seemed uncharacteristic or odd or out of place. Sylvania's a province of the empire, why would it be so strange for them to have a couple cannons, or the like? Necrarchs are all about bizarre undead constructs & contraptions, why would it be so strange for them to have some crazy unliving warmachine?

I'm not saying I especially want such things, just that I have nothing against them in theory, either.

 

[Grish]

In theory, most armies could have access to most equipment. There is nothing stopping a Bret army from capturing/using a cannon, or paying off an upset Engineer to use such a device.

Von C's could do the same, by enthralling/threatening such people, forcing them to work for them. Happens in all kinds of war, prisoners are forced to work.

I have no issues with it being in the fluff, but I don't really want it for our army. It would, for me, detract from the feel that we must engage, that the undead will press forwards, and that this army is not like a tactical TK army, with archers, chariots, infantry all working in tandem, but a horde of scary undead that pushes/shambles forwards, implacable. When you play VC, I want my opponents know that I WILL be coming for them, scooting across the table as fast as my minions can drag themselves (well, against most armies. Khorne armies I sit back a bit...)

 

[spineyrequiem]

I vote again for having something that effectively fires zombies (really just a catapult firing a big lump of warpstone at some enemy corpses...)

 

[Sception]

When you play VC, I want my opponents know that I WILL be coming for them, scooting across the table as fast as my minions can drag themselves

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

 

[Raizi]

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

I agree. Putrescent Deathmortar of Black Doom that shoots exploding zombies. S4, no armor saves. Use the large round template. Thank you GW, you still have time to put this one in the new book.

 

[Zhatan]

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

I agree. Putrescent Deathmortar of Black Doom that shoots exploding zombies. S4, no armor saves. Use the large round template. Thank you GW, you still have time to put this one in the new book.

I think you forgot it's poison and killing blow.

 

[Raizi]

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

I agree. Putrescent Deathmortar of Black Doom that shoots exploding zombies. S4, no armor saves. Use the large round template. Thank you GW, you still have time to put this one in the new book.

I think you forgot it's poison and killing blow.

Nah, it should be either one, not both. They work rather exclusively together. But you are correct, defenately it should have killing blow.

 

[Zhatan]

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

I agree. Putrescent Deathmortar of Black Doom that shoots exploding zombies. S4, no armor saves. Use the large round template. Thank you GW, you still have time to put this one in the new book.

I think you forgot it's poison and killing blow.

Nah, it should be either one, not both. They work rather exclusively together. But you are correct, defenately it should have killing blow.

Haha now I don't even know if your are kidding... It's hard to tell when it's written and not spoken.
I was of course not serious.

 

[Nosfeatu]

I dont know about anyone else, but in our new book I hope ranged int the form of cross bows, more characters than you can count on one hand, ( dont know if anyone played it but Luthor Harkon in the zombie pirates army was fun to play) and hopfully giving our named vampires (Vlad, Mannfre, and Konrad) some armor.

(I also think maybe some more useful core would be nice)

 

[Raizi]

The presence of the hellcannon in chaos mortal armies doesn't stop them from being a melee army that presses forward implacably, while at the same time it adds a valuable tactical tool that, as a cool demonic engine, feels very thematic. I see no reason why some sort of necromantic engine couldn't be the same for vamp counts.

I agree. Putrescent Deathmortar of Black Doom that shoots exploding zombies. S4, no armor saves. Use the large round template. Thank you GW, you still have time to put this one in the new book.

I think you forgot it's poison and killing blow.

Nah, it should be either one, not both. They work rather exclusively together. But you are correct, defenately it should have killing blow.

Haha now I don't even know if your are kidding... It's hard to tell when it's written and not spoken.
I was of course not serious.

Well, I wasn't being too serious either.

 

[StirogiPerogi]

My typical contrary post.

The current army book is complete garbage. Like most 7th edition books, it is full of no-brain-er must-have magic/unit selections; the lists almost write themselves.
I hope they give the new VC book a thorough cleaning and remove the blatant overuse of 2 unit types and 3 magic items. I would love to field an army that my opponent does not have already memorized.

 

[old man doom]

Aside from warmachines, have you ever read a VC book or battle that had any shooting in it? I think fluff wise VC don't need shooting. We march up stoicly and crush our enemies with weight of numbers. I think a big change would be to just give us back our zombies. They need a 5+ regen (cause zombies are suppose to be hard tokill) or they need to be like 1 or 2 points a piece. I'd like to keep the raising additional numbers ability but would settle for cheaper units and more blood lines.

This. This so much.

While 5+ regen. on Zombies sounds awesome, GW probably won't do something that cool. 2 pts. each though? That sounds reasonable, and still very cool.

On that note, is there any word on who is writing the new book?

 

[El Syf]

Alessio Cavatore did a good job on the previous AB, and he actually played Vampire Counts as well. Dont think he works for GW anymore though.

 

[TMS]

Alessio Cavatore did a good job on the previous AB, and he actually played Vampire Counts as well. Dont think he works for GW anymore though.

I don't think he does, either. He's involved with the rules for Mantic's Kings of War.

 

[El Syf]

Bloodlines. I remember in 6th edition a game of under 2000 points. Blood dragons were shafted because thralls had no magic level at all and you just ended up taking necromancers (who could be upgraded to 2 back then) with maybe one vampire. Although as thralls weren't wizards they couldn't be the general so even if you wanted to do a BD army it ended up being a necromancer army with a vampire thrown in. So long as all vampires stay as wizards or can become wizards it would be fine.
But a necromancer being the general of a Blood Dragon army! No return to those days!

 

[TMS]

But a necromancer being the general of a Blood Dragon army! No return to those days!

To be fair, that was the case of all the bloodlines that weren't Necrarch. I think that bloodlines coupled with the newer rules for our general (that he only has to be a vampire, not necessarily a wizard) would work well.

 

[El Syf]

They need to change so much on having a look at our current book. All the special characters are dead!(really dead!) Only Manfred might still be kicking around, and it makes some of the others imputent as well. Biding their time or words to that effect seem to be used to sum up what they're doing. We're Vampires not assasins/politicians! I know gathering an army and that takes time but it just portrays a as waiting for Nagash or the like to tell it's time to go do a bit of killing. If they can make at least some of the special characters active both as in not having been killed and actually doing some killing themselves that would be nice. Rant over just got a bit irate when I noticed that.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

Through 7th ed I stuck religiously to a single army list that was for all intents and purposes, unchanged from game to game and built upon for bigger games. The core of it remained the saem:

VC Lord decked to chop up opposition and return GG to me.
Necromancer on Cart with D3+9 raise dead rod (name escapes me)
2 x Skeletons
1 x Ghouls
1 x Grave Guard
Fell bats/Dire Wolves
Black Coach

I would vary it by adding in BK and a Varghulf from time to time. This army won me all but 1 of the games I played during this time and got screams of 'overpowered OMG' from one of my regular opponents. It got boring in the end so I went back to my Warriors of Chaos.

I want this book to bring some variety. I can a hellish circus of abominations and undead win. I don't want to be using this list again. I had my cookie cutter and quite frankly, I want new shaped cookies. I live in the hope that the new book is going to do that and the new models already have me salivating at the prospect of bringing new life to my undead (pun intended). I played DeathstarHammer in 7th ed to death (WoC and VC do this superbly) and do live in the hope of being able to use an army that has tactical flexibility. This is why I am building High Elves but being able to do it with VC for the cost of only a few new units would please me immensely.

 

[HERO]

I can't wait to try out my WS9 Dreadknight on a Zombie Dragon and Glittering Scales. If Cloud of Flies is still in the game, WS4 and under will need 7s to hit the Vamp on top.

 

[Sception]

Of course, cannons will still hit him on 2+ (anything but a misfire), and if he fails his ward your army starts crumbling, since thanks to the dragon you won't be able to field a second lord to lead the army. I rather expect the zombie dragon will be better in the new book, but still completely unplayable in any reasonably sized game.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I still don't see why you would field it, the terror Ghiest is a much better option to put a lord on if you ever felt the compulsion to do so.

I just hope we get a few more troop options, sure we have some nice new things but I would like to see some new rank and file as well, levies, bowmen or what have you.
Would bring so much character back to the army.

 

[N.I.B]

I would like the same utility our current book had in the beginning. When it hit the shelves in 7th ed, I went on a rampage win streak. I stopped counting after going 50-0, and I'm not even joking. Didn't matter much what I had in the army as long as I had a good build for my lord - the summoning lord of win, a crazy Dreadknight lord, or the torpedo of death.

In my first big new army book tournament I came second place, only beaten on victory points by another VC player. Then I grew bored and played out-of-the-box builds for the rest of 7th ed, Lahmia-mimicking army with lots of Skellies and Banshee synergies, Abyssal Terror army and lastly a Zombie Dragon army - I took them all to big tournaments with pretty good results. I even had a five (or something like that) win streak with a blitz army without magic (only the basic 2 levels from my lord). I also revived the old wolf train army successfully.

With 8th ed that versatility of VC went out the window. The coming week will be very exciting, to see if there are enough viable builds to lure me back to fantasy.

 

[HERO]

Of course, cannons will still hit him on 2+ (anything but a misfire), and if he fails his ward your army starts crumbling, since thanks to the dragon you won't be able to field a second lord to lead the army. I rather expect the zombie dragon will be better in the new book, but still completely unplayable in any reasonably sized game.

Well gents, it seems to me that we have a disagreement here.

1) Cannons will wound him on 2s regardless, so that's why you always take a 4+ ward on him. This is almost an non-issue. If you get hit by a S10 cannonball, you'll be taking that ward anyway, so who cares what armor your Lord is wearing.

2) Dragons are extremely unpopular now because the metagame shifted. Same reason why I've been having success with my Star Dragon as of late. It's a huge target that does insane amounts of damage and no one seems to remember why.

3) Glittering Scales on a WS9 model that's riding a HUGE base is going to inflict NIGHTMARES in to any unit trying to kill it. The Lord is virtually unhittable, he'll still have his T5, multiple wounds and 4+ ward. You might also want that new magic item that gives everything in base contact ASL and no strength bonuses. Can you imagine the havoc you can inflict on a unit? Probably not, and the reason why you can't is because the "norm" and the internet is telling you Dragons are a bad idea.

New book guys - think of things outside the box and see where it takes you. Otherwise, you're on a road of disappointment before the journey even starts.

 

[Scarr Reincarnated]

Dragon riding Vampire Lord with Nightshroud and 4+ Ward and a combo with a Vampire on Hellsteed (if they still are called that) with Charmed Shield would actually be pretty scary to face. Lots of Flying and power.

 

[Sception]

1) Cannons will wound him on 2s regardless, so that's why you always take a 4+ ward on him. This is almost an non-issue. If you get hit by a S10 cannonball, you'll be taking that ward anyway, so who cares what armor your Lord is wearing.

Best ward you're getting, that we know of, is 4+. Cannon 'hits' on a 2+, wounds on a 2+, and causes multiple wounds. Only takes, on average, what? four cannon shots to take him down? Three for great cannons? Not much worse for bolt throwers or the like?

If your vampire isn't on a dragon, your opponent will have a much harder time getting a bead on him to begin with, and even if they do you'll have a 2+ look out sir role that the dragon riding vampire just doesn't get. There's your difference right there. Dragon riding vamp takes fourish cannon shots to bring down, easily done in a round for many armies, while the non dragon riding vampire takes 24ish, thanks to look out sir.

Some armies don't have access to that kind of artillery, and against those armies, sure, the dragon might be a nasty surprise. But if your regular opponants include empire, or dwarves, or even elves or greenskins who are a little more bolt-thrower-happy then most, or double cannon ogres even, then I expect much of the time that dragon's going to be a liability for the vampire riding it and by extension for the entire army.

Barring of course, mitigating options or special rules we haven't seen, which is entirely possible.