Wight Kings, who uses them?

[Grok]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum (been lurking for about a week reading as much as I can). I am starting VC, but am a long time warhammer player with experience using Orcs and Goblins, Dark Elves, and Bretonnians in 8th ed.

I am trying to plan my initial purchases and I keep coming back to Wight Kings in the book. T5 W3 for relatively cheap and taking hero points looks amazing. I was looking at potentially taking a few just with a great weapon, keep them cheap, and use them to boost the combat ability of skellie, Grave Guard, or if I decide to go the mounted route Black Knights.

This sort of set up could potentially really shine in a GG unit with banner of the barrows. It seems a cheaper alternative to putting a Vamp Lord in the unit, so he can go elsewhere.

Who else uses Wight Kings? Are they better on paper then in the actual game? How do you use them? I saw some builds in the stickied thread, but there wasn't a ton of info on how people actually use them.

Even one with a great weapon in a skelly block can contribute some kills, take out chaos chariots, 5 man knight blocks, ect.

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

Wight Kings can be sweet, but I wouldn't personally use them for the purpose of buffing skeleton units. They are better as support characters or tanky BSBs. I would use the following builds:
-Fencer's Blades, Dragonhelm, and Ironcurse Icon in a horde of Grave Guard w/ great weapons and Banner of the Barrows so that you get an extra attack and hit on a 2+. This is the best way to maximize killing blow potential and is the ultimate character challenger/challenge acceptor.
-Nightshroud caddy next to your lord. The WK carries the Nightshroud and debuffs the units attacking your VL while you spend your valuable lord points on a more offensive loadout for your VL.
-Tanky BSB in a Black Knight bus. Either give him a magical standard that rerolls charge distances in addition to the Banner of Swiftness on the BKs to insure they get into combat, or just make him a Nightshroud caddy with a BSB upgrade.

 

[John Rainbow]

I think Patrunkenphat7 has a good idea of what most Wight Kings are use for. I agree with the sentiment that they are better used as supporting characters and to tank a few wounds rather than actually kill too much. You also can't really rely on them to go toe-toe with most other kitted out combat characters unless they are going to struggle to wound that T5.

 

[Grok]

See from my arm chair examination of the army it seems like low strength attacks (such as provided by the fencer's blades guy) aren't as useful compared to more S6. Nightshroud is an interesting idea.

The main problem I see with using it as a Bsb carrying a magic standard is that its not very difficult to grab those points. +100 for the Bsb, then the 150 ish for him and his kit seems a steep investment.

What sort of armies and match ups do you find your builds work well in?

 

[Alabaster427]

Every time that I use them, they get targeted right away. Before End Times, our general was so important to keep alive, that you had to invest points on keeping safe, but he is also one of the greatest damage output generators in the game, so you would also have to invest a lot of points for that. I would generally use the WK as a BSB with either Razor Standard in GG or as a NS caddy with Warrior Bane and IC. I have heard of some players sneaking in a Rod of Flaming Death on him while in a BK bus to "discourage" fleeing.

 

[Grok]

I think Patrunkenphat7 has a good idea of what most Wight Kings are use for. I agree with the sentiment that they are better used as supporting characters and to tank a few wounds rather than actually kill too much. You also can't really rely on them to go toe-toe with most other kitted out combat characters unless they are going to struggle to wound that T5.

I think perhaps the use for the 3 wight kings is being a little misunderstood. I don't see them as taking on other characters, but rather helping kill rank and file, chariots, or other mid range type of options. Basically a cheap reliable boost to a core choice, without the points sink of a tooled up character.

 

[Alabaster427]

I think perhaps the use for the 3 wight kings is being a little misunderstood. I don't see them as taking on other characters, but rather helping kill rank and file, chariots, or other mid range type of options. Basically a cheap reliable boost to a core choice, without the points sink of a tooled up character.

Without Slain General and the general not having to be a wizard that knows LoV, this is a very viable option. Granted, it may mean that one of the WK would end up being the general.

 

[HERO]

I love the Wight King BSB. T5 1+ with Nightshroud next to my Lord gives him protection from SO many sources it's not even funny.

He's very cheap too, and the T5 with THREE wounds cannot be understated. The fact that he's 3 wounds is just so huge..

 

[Grok]

Yeah three wounds is amazing along with T5 is amazing!

Alabaster427 not 100% sure what you mean by the general needing to know Lore of Vampires. I don't see the wight kings replacing a vampire of master necromancer, rather used in tandem

 

[Alabaster427]

Yeah three wounds is amazing along with T5 is amazing!

Alabaster427 not 100% sure what you mean by the general needing to know Lore of Vampires. I don't see the wight kings replacing a vampire of master necromancer, rather used in tandem

I meant NOT having to know. Edited for ease of reading. If you don't take a VL and you take a WK, with End Times rule, the WK would be the general is what I am meaning.

 

[Grok]

Oh ok, gotcha. I haven't bought any End of Times stuff so I don't know much about it. To be honest I don't plan to play much of the end of times, if I wanna play a supplement/ campaign style game it will be narrative story style .

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Grok:
The biggest concern with using a WK to add damage to a skellie unit is that he won't do nearly enough to make that unit able to survive or really kill anything other than other armies' crap units. If he is somehow supplementing a VL, however, that could certainly be an effective use of points. I generally do not like taking a magical banner on him unless he is in a Black Knight bus, and even then I usually prefer just making him a BSB Nightshroud caddy. BSB is completely unnecessary in a skeleton block in my opinion and is more of a liability for your opponent to gain some massive victory points from killing him.

I agree that you generally don't want him going up against characters, but the Fencer's Blades build in a Banner of the Barrows Grave Guard unit is a cute/fun way to take down some really annoying, tanky characters thanks to killing blow. He gets 4 attacks that hit almost everything on a 2+, so a little more than half the time you will land killing blow on your opponent. Maximizing killing blow potential is statistically better than 3 strength 6 ASL attacks against most decent or better characters. If you want to make him even more glass cannon-y, slap Other Trickster's Shard on him for fun times over the Dragonhelm and Ironcurse Icon.

 

[najo]

I meant NOT having to know. Edited for ease of reading. If you don't take a VL and you take a WK, with End Times rule, the WK would be the general is what I am meaning.

It's not end times rules. It's undead legion rules. If you run vampire counts or tomb kings on their own, you do not benefit from the undead legion rules. End times rules is just up to 50% lords and 50% heroes.

 

[najo]

Oh ok, gotcha. I haven't bought any End of Times stuff so I don't know much about it. To be honest I don't plan to play much of the end of times, if I wanna play a supplement/ campaign style game it will be narrative story style .

Check the other threads out on this, but end times and undead legion are not a campaign or optional. The book states that warhammer rules have changed. It states nothing about opponents permission.

 

[Grok]

See I get one wight king won't do much. But has anyone tried multiple (2-3) in a unit? The points investment is super cheap. It won't make a skelly unit a killing machine, but it will give it some punch, at least in theory. But maybe this is because I am looking at it from an outside perspective, rather then behind the reigns of the army.

I think overall I should be clear, I am not overly worried about opposing characters. A single character one foot (pretty much the only thing KB will effect) doesn't worry me much, it can be chaffed, controlled, ect. Sure a mounted character is a problem, but again chaff ect.

What I see to be a bigger problem is either small combat units (say 14 Blackguard, 10 demons, 1 warriors chariot) stuff like that.

I was thinking about this mostly because running Night Goblin characters with great weapons 2-4 in a goblin unit is something I have found to effectively boost the unit's killing power for a reasonable investment.

It seems like generally from what I am hearing the Wight King is not really useful to actually kill much? More so to support the Vamp Lord?

 

[Grok]

Check the other threads out on this, but end times and undead legion are not a campaign or optional. The book states that warhammer rules have changed. It states nothing about opponents permission.

Sorry I have seen very extensive discussion on this on twitter other forums. It still seems there are still some solid conclusions to be made one way or the other for it, if I am being honest. I don't really feel like wading thru a thread I am sure that the End of Times book itself says it is official, but much like the Tamurkhan book I think time will tell if it is accepted as such .


Also, I was hoping to build my VC to play on the tournament scene as well as locally, and I would be very shocked in End of Times is accepted in more then a handful of events.

If it becomes pretty widely accepted/ used i'll invest in it, but not till then

 

[John Rainbow]

I haven't been all that impressed by the Nightshroud tbh. You don't want to be in the combats where it is really effective most of the time as you still get smushed all the same i.e. Iron Guts or some other GW wielding unit.

 

[HERO]

It seems like generally from what I am hearing the Wight King is not really useful to actually kill much? More so to support the Vamp Lord?

Yes. He's is one of the more support pieces in the army. His stats are purely defensive and his damage output is based off his capacity to threaten a KB.

 

[HERO]

I haven't been all that impressed by the Nightshroud tbh. You don't want to be in the combats where it is really effective most of the time as you still get smushed all the same i.e. Iron Guts or some other GW wielding unit.

I disagree, because the the Nightshroud's ability to strip strength bonuses from magical AND mundane abilities means S6 GW totting units wound the VL on 5s. Because they're only at S4, the armor save is not modified greatly either, so you still get that awesome 2+ if you're totting 1+ like I am. It also craps all over Eternal Blade, which is something that's absolutely critical if you're to withstand fighting vs. a KoS.

The other ability is less visible, but equally important. Stripping ASF off units because you have ASL allows your Quickblood/Red Fury VL to get the consistency of damage required for him to make his points. Placement, has to be key. I suggest VL on the corner, WK besides him, and then your rank and file. You want to minimize the impact anyone/thing has on the VL while he can commit on the unit itself.
VL, WK, CH, BK, BK

You can also mess with challenges, force someone who thinks they can beat on your lord into BtB with you, and then it goes downhill for them there, since he's going to be touching that Wight King.

 

[najo]

Sorry I have seen very extensive discussion on this on twitter other forums. It still seems there are still some solid conclusions to be made one way or the other for it, if I am being honest. I don't really feel like wading thru a thread I am sure that the End of Times book itself says it is official, but much like the Tamurkhan book I think time will tell if it is accepted as such .


Also, I was hoping to build my VC to play on the tournament scene as well as locally, and I would be very shocked in End of Times is accepted in more then a handful of events.

If it becomes pretty widely accepted/ used i'll invest in it, but not till then

Can you please provide where in the book you read that. So far, all the threads I've seen have people quoting the book where it says these are updates to the brb rules and then everyone in the thread agreeing that the rule book lacks anything about opponent's permission.

All threads I've read conclude the rules are official updates.

 

[Grok]

Can you please provide where in the book you read that. So far, all the threads I've seen have people quoting the book where it says these are updates to the brb rules and then everyone in the thread agreeing that the rule book lacks anything about opponent's permission.

All threads I've read conclude the rules are official updates.

I think perhaps you may have read my post before it was edited , but as I have said I do not currently own the book. Due to my newbie nature I can't post links on the site, but i was following the discussion on the garagehammer forum.


With the nature of twitter a link to those discussions is pretty impossible .

Since I do not actually own the book, I can't quote it, but here is a quote from Gw's description of the book

Warhammer: Nagash Book 2 is a 96-page volume that contains new scenarios and rules based on the events in Warhammer: Nagash Book 1. It includes the full rules that will allow you to field Nagash and his loyal subjects - along with all-new rules for some of the most powerful heroes of the Old World, such as Valten and Vlad von Carstein - in your games of Warhammer.


Armies of the End Times can also field more Lords - up to 50% - and the brand new spell lore - The Lore of Undeath - allows every wizard, mage and sorcerer to wield the fell magic unleashed by Nagash. There are also army lists that allow you to create a unified army of Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts known as the Undead Legion.




Vs the description of the 8th ed rulebook

The Warhammer rulebook is a massive 532-page full colour hardback book. Within its covers the book is divided into four mighty sections. The Rules tell you how to field your army on the tabletop; the Warhammer World delves deep into the background; the Miniatures Showcase is page after page of gloriously painted models; and Warhammer Battles explores the depth and breadth of the hobby.

From my perspectivethe description of End Times doesn't say "Warhammer Armies" but "Armies of the End Times" Similarly, it mentions new scenarios and rules based off the events in Warhamemr: Nagash, not new scenarios and rules for Warhamemr. In comparison, the 8th ed book just says rules for fielding your armies.

I think also, perhaps a point you may have missed. I am hoping to build the army to play in both the tournament scene and local meta. Until those groups decide one way or the other if they are playing with the rules I won't be using them (since I naturally want to be able to play with the people I have available).

 

[Alabaster427]

It's not end times rules. It's undead legion rules. If you run vampire counts or tomb kings on their own, you do not benefit from the undead legion rules. End times rules is just up to 50% lords and 50% heroes.

I thought that it said that Slain General and such are no longer in effect for VC/TK because Nagash's presence (even if slain in game) is enough to keep the undead "alive" and because of this, VC no longer needed LoV. Will read again tonight.

 

[HERO]

I thought that it said that Slain General and such are no longer in effect for VC/TK because Nagash's presence (even if slain in game) is enough to keep the undead "alive" and because of this, VC no longer needed LoV. Will read again tonight.

I have it in front of me, and yes, you are correct.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Why dont we need LoV anymore?

 

[HERO]

Why dont we need LoV anymore?

Because in the Undead Legion rules:
"Blah blah blah fluff. As a result, all rules pertaining to The Generals of Undeath or The Hierophant are no longer required."