Witch Elves...

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Steapa

Ghoul
Feb 8, 2014
103
Zombies
91
May as well just call them erasers...cauldron + 40 WE wiped out 70 zombies in one round of combat. The cauldron alone...D6+1 impact...the hag with rune of khaine rolled up +3 attacks, making 8 attacks. 2 crew on the cauldron = 8 more attacks. 2 attacks base, 2 hand weapons + frenzy...ASF, re-rolling to hit....altar of khaine says they get to re-roll to wound as well.

Facepalm.

Couldn't even get my flank because they have to over-run...which put them in perfect position to just turn around the next round.

I have decided the best way to deal with them is simply to not deal with them.
 
Used my witch horde (28 + cauldron) and played vs VC the last tournament I attended. Front charged a 34 strong unit of GG (sword and board) with a WK (fencers + OTS). Thought that this will go smoothly. What happened? Well, I killed them after many turns grinding, but it took time! Why? Double level 3´s rasing the up every turn and a nearby corpse cart taking my re-rolls away. Those two things actually made all the difference (and the occasional vanhels!). But yeah, best avoid that unit at all costs! :D
 
Firstly, those witches are frenzied and we have the best chaff in the game. Stick direwolves or fellbats in front of them such that they have to close the door to the flank and overrun to the middle of nowhere. A cauldronstar is a huge amount of points and you're doing well if you can hold them out of the game.

The second way to deal with them is ethereal and armour. They have a lot of attacks and poison, so unarmoured troops will fall to them fast. But hit them in the flank with hexwraiths, spirit hosts, or black knights and they won't be able to push wounds through. Even skeletons in the flank would work, as the wounds you'd bleed would be made up for with SCR and disrupting ranks. So long as you had a proper hammer pushing wounds through, that is.
 
No magic weapon on the Hag? Interesting. I usually see Ogre Blade placed there as well as Cry of War (although that wouldn't affect us).
You can stop their bound spell that gives them "extra frenzy" so you'll be dealing with less attacks.
But, yeah, go with pirate's suggestions.
 
Yesh! you can try:

1. Redirecting the unit into a favorable combat / out of harm to your army. Fell bats and Dire Wolves excel at this.

2. Knights and Ethereals as Pirate has suggested, much better while fighting in their flank.

3. Nightshroud against high strength weapons and ASF negators. Best used on Vampiric blender Knights

4. Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadows (Elector Count of Sylvania, mind you) with a Tomb Prince / King inside any Infantry unit, will make those elves hit on 5+. Although this is not the optimal way to deal with them, you may want to try a Horde vs Horde matchup with Grave Guard with Banner of the Barrows. This last one is not really recommended, but could have their uses and may even end up winning (specially with magic support).

5. Mortis Engines's aura will quickly damage them due to their T3 and no armour saves, but this should only be "support damage" and by no means a solution.
 
the sad part is i hit them 3 times with 3 dead on hits with screaming skull pult before he got to me too. That 5+ ward that the shrine gives sucks too. They are like little slaanesh demons running across the battlefield. But they cost less.

I had krell and a vampire lord in a unit of 30 GG with BoTB. My lvl 4 Lord was able to keep the GG healed up. Krell chopped down a hydra and a dreadlord (not a super kitted up dread though mind you) And then we took down the knight bus he delivered his dreadlord to me with. Long story short. The WE ate my right flank, I ate his left and he didn't manuever his 2 lords out of my way and got the victory only by his tactical blunder. I am not sure how that would have gone had he put his WE dead center. I don't want to take a war kitty cause all those poison attacks will eat em. But fiery breath could be amazing...
 
Alright... hmmm...

Witch Elves are a very effective killing unit with a fatal flaw: frenzy.

Our Core is never meant to win combats, but to stall them. If the enemy is so overwhelming, then using large-sized units (like Zombies) is not an optimal choice, since they'll get hacked apart as easilly as 5 Dire Wolves. That's why redirecting is the prime strategy to use against Witch Elves.

Now, that is only a part of the whole problem, since our purpose is to defeat it, either by destroying the unit or winning the game by leaving it untouched/controlled, then I'd recomend the following:

- If that Unit is on the flank, then you have a bit of an advantage, since it will not be able to engage the middle line if you redirect it properly. Even without a tooled up list to face them, we have Dire Wolves and Skeleton Riders as cheap maneouverable units that can just stand in front of them, angled "away" from the main battle so that they must either reform (and pass their frenzy ld test, which is easi for ld 10 elves) or charge the meager 5 wolves and overrun further away from the battle. That's your tactic no. 1.

- Now, while redirecting, your opponent may anticipate the cheap chaff you'll throw at them and attempt to reform said unit, while targeting your chaff with either shooting attacks or spells. This is perfectly fine, as long as you can weather the damage inflicted. You should be positioning your own strike force (of, perhaps, Black Knights) right where they need to be, closing in on expensive stuff, or the Witch Elves themselves. To counter the unit reforming and then re-engaging the middle fight, consider using Fell Bats as well as Dire Wolves. They can dance all around a Horde, while forcing them to a uncomfortable charge with ease.

- Dealing with the Horde itself, you can use any number of "safe" ranged options to grind them down to a more manageable size. As far as undead Legions is concerned, The Net of Amyntok and Usirian's Vengeful hex (don't know the name in english, I have the spanish verson of the TK book, hehe), are quite good at holding the unit back or decimating it. Curse of Years is another tool, despite their Ward Save and Magic Resistance, it will cause some wounds, plus it will draw some dispel dice. Usirian's Hex is particularly good, because of the negative movement stat and the dangerous terrain test.

- Finally, if we are to compare might against might, consider using a 50+ Skeleton Archer unit with Khalida in it, and just shoot at those T3 Elves, coupled with anything that can debuff T from Lore of Shadows or Death. They should get weathered down rather quickly and become much more manageable once they've received 3-4 volleys. Pair this up with chaff to get much more damage inflicted on them while redirecting them.

All of the above requires you to sacrifice units (even important units, like Varghulfs or Terrorgheists) for the sake of redirecting it into a trap and grinding them with vampires or such. Don't play as you would another army, and plan your moves carefully, and most lists should have a way to deal with deathstars such as that of Witch Elves. I speak of experience, no matter how powerful a Horde is, if it gets flanked and has no way to deal frontal attacks, it is doomed to break or crumble away, even against sub-par warriors, like ours. Static Combat Resolution plays a big role, and having an advantage of +4 (3 ranks plus, at least, flank combat) is nothing to laugh at, specially with so few returning attacks being made, regardless of how many a Witch Elf can dish, they eventually lose.

I hope this helps, and gives you many more ideas of how to defeat an "invincible" enemy :D
 
One thing to also be concerned about is Hellebron. Her ridiculous number of high S attacks are the bane of most of the traditional counters to that unit (ethereal, armour, etc). Remember that the Cauldron isn't on the same base size as the rank-and-file and must always be in the middle of the unit, so can't make way to attack the flank (and can only get into combat by issuing and accepting challenges). Hellebron, so long as your opponent isn't an idiot and doesn't put her on a cauldron, counters this quite neatly.

HOWEVER, tag her with a nightshroud and she goes from having 10 S10 attacks with ASF to 10 S3 attacks at initiative. Not the worst.
 
The only thing I would add is that Lore of Undeath can be used to set up multiple baits and overruns, though it is perhaps a less than ideal choice. I've found it to be helpful against the end times elf list, since it is very effective at clearing chaff with shooting.
 
They fight in 3 ranks now too right? So they got so much more powerful .. and they can stick a HE hero with BotWD in there now. Regardless I'm sure they are going to have 3MR in there. DE easily have 10Ld with BSB so frenzy isn't going to do jack (other than make them ItP and +1 attack). And they can have the Incarnate of Life bringing wounds back for fun.

The end times are not kind to ethereal units - magic is their weakness and now every mage apprentice and his mother has a magic missile ready to cast 4 times every magic phase. What the end times does do is give us a lot more chances to raise dead for all the chaff we could ever need. Chaff is what we will need to redirect and avoid. If you hit them really hard on the flank and make them flee it will be very funny.

With a corpse cart we may even cause a few wounds with zombie chaff which is nice. Regarding GG, are you saying that simply having the ASF rule, even if negated by ASL, takes away the ASF re-rolls of elves?
 
In my last game, they(witches+cauldron+Hag) run through a 50skeletons units and wiped them in 2 combat turn. They reform then charged in my VL and his majestic dragon (my bad). My VL survive through challenging his champion (phew), the dragon crumbled a bit...

My turn: My black knights + Baby Vampire charged the Witches flank and my Hierotitan charged their rear. My VL challenge the hag and killed her while my black knights, baby vampire and Hierotitan successfuly killed some witches without loosing to much. I win the fight with around 8-9 and he werent stubborn anymore since my black knights were unharmed (with equal ranks than the remaining witches, 2)... Witches flew, Knights got them, end.

This is the story of the first time I seen those Witches leaving the battlefield...


PS: I lost the game.
 
I think a horde of crypts horrors followed by a corpse cart and a mortis engine could win against those witches ... Negating their reroll to hit and only wound on 6

Maybe add a beast lore vampire :P

Gonna try it soon, I hope I will destroy them :)
 
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Witch Elves are built to kill lightly armored infantry, most of our infantry ends up being great match ups for them. Just feed them chaff and kill off their support. Since they are frenzied they have to overrun which makes them super easy to control. While they are being led around run Hexwraiths thru them and scream, even a curse of years or wind of death could be good for the numbers it will hit.

If you do insist on combating them use heavily armored things (3+ saves), Do not throw monsters into them as poison will shred them, because of this higher toughness isn't the best answer (though it helps). A black knight unit could do wonders with some character support. Blood Knights in the flank could wreck them.

Consider trying to hex the Witch Elves WS/I before going into combat, Miasma could be a great equalizer here.

I think Crypt Horrors could do well, but only if the witch elf unit has been weakened a little first.
 
Giving ASF on horrors (via corpse cart) cancel reroll for the witch elves, so less poison.

And we will attack at the same time ASF vs ASF

So all crypts horrors should attack with 54A (horde :) ) and 6 stomps

They only have F3 and we got T5 ok, poison hurt but they will only wound on 6+ (with reroll)

Unlike their 5+ ward, crypts got 4+ regen (via mortis) and a lot of wounds

I'm sure Horrors will win !
 
Giving ASF on horrors (via corpse cart) cancel reroll for the witch elves, so less poison.

And we will attack at the same time ASF vs ASF

So all crypts horrors should attack with 54A (horde :) ) and 6 stomps

They only have F3 and we got T5 ok, poison hurt but they will only wound on 6+ (with reroll)

Unlike their 5+ ward, crypts got 4+ regen (via mortis) and a lot of wounds

I'm sure Horrors will win !

These things could work, but with this amount of buffing (which can be blocked in various ways) you are essentially doing the same as weakening the opposing unit.

Chaffing and killing other stuff ends up being more reliable and economic, as it only take 40 point dog units, spirt hosts, ect. No support spells or units nearby, and next to no luck to pull off.
 
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These things could work, but with this amount of buffing (which can be blocked in various ways) you are essentially doing the same as weakening the opposing unit.

Chaffing and killing other stuff ends up being more reliable and economic, as it only take 40 point dog units, spirt hosts, ect. No support spells or units nearby, and next to no luck to pull off.

And more importantly...free zombies!

Seriously though, what I would do against an army with a cauldron star is just chaff the brick all day long and try my damnedest to kill everything else. Bring fast units like vargheist packs to kill their bolt throwers, and make sure that everything is shooting at dogs to clear up the witch elves rather than whittling down your bus or hammers.

Then I'd throw Wind of Death or Curse of Years at the witches all day long, using these to draw dice away from the far more important Raise Dead. If they dispel Raise Dead and eat a Curse of Years then either they cripple their own next magic phase dispelling it or it whittles the brick down slowly but surely.
 
The witches have a 5++ and the cauldron gives them MR1 so I wouldn't rely on spells.

Would you not shoot bows at something with a 4+ armour save?

Having resilience to CoY or Wind of Death just makes the opponent less likely to dispel it. The best way to take down witch elves is to WHITTLE WHITTLE WHITTLE. 30 of them is devastating, but 10 can be ground out.
 
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No, I wouldn't shoot my bows at something with a 4+ armor save, I would instead take out the more fragile units like fast cav and other chaff, things I knew I could eliminate. The tougher units get zombie speedbumps to deal with.

I'll give you Wind of Death against Witches but not Curse of Years. How many 6's are you going to roll? Not many. How many 4+ wards will they make? Enough so that they will lose about 1-2 models per casting.

Knowing that, I wouldn't magic them at all. I would use my offensive spells on Executioners and whatever else isn't well protected.
 

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