World Dragon and Curse of Anraheir

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RarerMonsters

Grave Guard
Jul 16, 2013
255
Zombies
188
In a game last night, I hit a unit with Banner of the World Dragon with Curse of Anraheir.
The question arose when I claimed that dangerous terrain checks caused by the Curse circumvent the BotWD, as the wounds were from dangerous terrain and the spell just caused them to see it everywhere. My opponent says that, being a wound caused by a spell, then it qualified the rulebook definition of a magic attack.

Can anyone offer rules citations or FAQ rulings explaining this one way or the other?
 
That one's actually tricky. I would think the difference lies in Hex vs. Direct Damage. No 2++. It doesn't say anything about the Dangerous Terrain Wounds being Magic Attacks.
 
Adam_Barrow said:
That one's actually tricky. I would think the difference lies in Hex vs. Direct Damage. No 2++. It doesn't say anything about the Dangerous Terrain Wounds being Magic Attacks.

That was my thinking, problem is I have no rule citation to back it up so opinions don't ultimately help.

Do you have any more solid rulings?
 
Adam_Barrow said:
That's the first I've heard of this particular scenario occurring. I can only offer conjecture.

Unfortunately, that's not enough, because, although I agree, it can't end the disagreement.
 
I'm with Hairyjeff and Fodderboy on this one. The spell might cause the dangerous terrain test but it says nothing about the potential damage beeing magical.

And since it doesn't say any diffrent we follow the rules for a regular dangerous terrain test, which ofc. doesn't say anything about magic damage.
 
Interesting debate. I have a similar story with this spell:

Curse of Anraheir was cast on my 10 hexwraith unit. Since I'm ethereal and ignore all terrain as dangerous, I was immune to the spell's effects. A judge ruled in my favour (also it's in the ETC FAQ but that's not universal, I know)

Since the test never had to be taken, we never debated whether or not the failed tests would be magical... if they were deemed non-magical, then since I'm ethereal it wouldn't matter :tongue:

Though things with ethereal movement yet are not ethereal (ME, CV, Skeletal Steeds) would be another debate.

My personal opinion is that you get to use BoTWD on it's effects... the spell makes the terrain really screwed up (by magically enhancing the terrain, amking the terrain magical) so you trip, fall and die. I'd even warrant Magic Resistance saves versus it, same as granting MR against other spells in the movement phase (flame cage, rod of flaming death etc).

Would be nice to see a FAQ on this.
 
That's ok, in fact you're probably correct!

I'll admit my views are oft wrong when it comes to non-VC crap like Beast lore spells xD
 
I mean, there was really no doubt in my mind that the DT tests were non-magical, since the only way you could rule that you get a save against wounds caused indirectly by spells is if BotWD was a completely overpowered BS item.

...

Which it is, and if it protects against Miscast results, then why shouldn't it also extend to just complete immunity to every spell ever.

I'm not sure it wasn't RAI that BotWD stops Curse of Anraheir, all I'm trying to find is if there's some RAW I can be arguing here.
 
never fear, I'm here!

Let me preface my explanation by quaoting the title of a section of the book out of context. "The importance of definition". I found this to be very humerous as, the 8th edition rule book is utterly terrible at defining many things, leaving you to swim through a mountain of wordings to acquire the best means of resolution. :tongue:

The FAQ has no answers on anything relevant to this question so we must delve into the wording, as is always fun.

The banner of the world dragon gives a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by spells magical attacks, magic weapons. spells being the relevant factor here (however it is worth noting that magical attacks are attacks specifically stated to be magical- there is no definition of these in the book.

If we flip over to the curse of Anraheir it states, "in addition, the unit treats all terrain (other than impassable terrain) as dangerous terrain and will fail dangerous terrain tests on a 1 or 2, rather than a 1."


These two have very subtle meaning to them that allows for only one answer- that the wounds from the dangerous terrain test are not magical and the unit is not allowed to take a ward save against it that was granted by the banner of the world dragon.


The first point of the argument for this is the inclusion of the word "caused"- in the context of the game this means that only the last 'step' back can be considered. This must be the case otherwise you could argue to extremism thing like vanhels causes wounds by allowing a unit to charge or wyssans wildform causes wounds by augmenting the strength of a unit- this would be absurd. this point is not overly relevant to the argument but helps to reinforce it.


The most important part is just how Curse is worded. Curse does NOT cause a unit to take a dangerous terrain test, if it was worded such that "until the start of the caster's next magic phase, if the unit moves then it must take a dangerous terrain test..." then this would definitely be the case, as it is with fulminating flame cage however what curse does is give the unit three clauses:
- -1 to hit with shooting and close combat
- treats all terrain (other than impassable terrain) as dangerous terrain
- fails dangerous terrain tests on a 1 or a 2
It is not the CAUSE of the dangerous terrain test being taken, the CAUSE of the test is that the unit treats all terrain as dangerous.

It is unlikely that anyone you are playing against who insists that BotWD gives you a ward save will be convinced by this argument but, until an FAQ comes out that comments on either of these points this is the correct RAW resolution.

On the topic of ethereals, the answer of whether they must take the test depends on whose turn it is- remember the player whose turn it is decides the order in which simultaneous events are resolved. In this case, a unit of hexwraiths targeted by curse has two conflicting abilities
- treat all terrain as dangerous terrain
- treat all terrain as open ground
Thus, the player whose turn it is decides which to resolve first, with the one being resolved second the one that is actually applied (as it will nullify the prior), so it is possible that if ethereals are targeted with curse and they move in your opponents turn that they take the dangerous terrain test.
 
There is a guy who I sometimes play against who is also a VC player and his answer to everything is "show me where it says that." I can't stress enough how much this annoys me. Normally I'll pack up, shake my opponents hand and concede.

As said. The spell is not generating the wounds, it is modifying the roll result when taking terrain tests. Does casting an augment spell like vanhels on your ghoul unit give them magical attacks? If he says yes, slap him in his whore mouth.
 
what i thought of when reading this thread:

A spell curses you to fall, and you hit your head in the floor. While the spell caused you to fall it was not the spell who did you harm. And the floor doesn't get any magical properties.

But, if the spell instead conjured a floor out of thin air which levitated magically and hit you in the head. you would say that the damage you recieved was a direct result of that spell and that levitating floor would probably be quite magical.

Translated into warhammer
Spell that makes you fall - curse
Spell that conjurs a floor which attacks you - direkt damage


Just some random thoughts from Juljima who is bored and awaiting the evening for some serious beer drinking
 
The problem that I have with those saying that you would get a save is that I don't see any rules in their explanation. These explanations have no value.
Lynks provided a good explanation using the rulebook - these are the explanations worth listening to.

Here's something from the FAQ:
Q: What are magical attacks (p.68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls on the miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

Regardless of the how or why, a dangerous terrain *test* is just that - a test - it's neither an attack or magical. Just like a hex spell. I would even limit this to only spells that say "direct damage."

But with that said...you can always roll off on it during the game and end whatever arguments that arose...
 
Thanks to Lynks and Stuck804 for bringing some RAW to the discussion. (I appreciate opinions from people, but please understand that I can't go to other players and say "Some guys on the forum agreed with me")

It seems pretty clear cut, at least as far as the rulings describe causation and magical attacks.

Well, I have some ammunition on me if this ever comes up.
 
Juljima said:
what i thought of when reading this thread:

A spell curses you to fall, and you hit your head in the floor. While the spell caused you to fall it was not the spell who did you harm. And the floor doesn't get any magical properties.

But, if the spell instead conjured a floor out of thin air which levitated magically and hit you in the head. you would say that the damage you recieved was a direct result of that spell and that levitating floor would probably be quite magical.

Translated into warhammer
Spell that makes you fall - curse
Spell that conjurs a floor which attacks you - direkt damage



Just some random thoughts from Juljima who is bored and awaiting the evening for some serious beer drinking

It's not worded 100% like this, but this is 100% correct as I see it. I would be surprised if most did not agree.
My favorite way to sort out rules with someone is to discuss "what GW would have wanted/meant" in a way that balance is #1 goal. Although GW, nor anyone really, gets balance quite right. This is in fact their goal with rules.
With that in mind, I would have to say that they would not mean for the curse to do magical attack damage to you.
Further more, in my experience when Flamming and or Magical Attacks are involved they list them.
My thoughtsxD
 
Lol, magical dangerous terrain test..... lololololololol

So i curse you, which makes all physical movement in any terrain dangerous.... So now the terrain is magical?
makes no sense.
The test is a magical curse, but the failed dangerous terrain wounds are purely physical
 

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