your opinion on new v.c unit

[benccowan]

i want to try this nue unit out when i get the new book all the things i say in this are assumptions on wether the new book has them or not this unit would be in a 2000+ army

15-20 Blacknights
vamp BSB on horse with regeneration banner
very fighty vamp lord on horse extra attacks, big weapons etc
unit standared is banner of the barrows
all models completely suited and booted lances shield etc
over all the unit would have
2+ armour
7" movement
14"charge
regeneration
always hit on 3+
ranks of 7 (so probs 21 models)
will have a BSB vampire and a super killy vampire count
+2 stregnth on charge
cause fear
unbreakable
immune to phycology
and can be raised back to its full number
etc :lol:

the pupose of this unit would be to atract all enamy fire and units while the rest of my army sneak around healing the unit and them when the BN get in combat pulverise everything within reach with help from the rest of the army personaly i'd cack myself if i saw it coming the only think i can use to describe the unit is :devil:

 

[User Deleted by Request]

Black Knights might not have a 2+ save in the new book..

Otherwise, it's a nice all-eggs-in-one-basket unit which might do wonders or be 600 free VP's to your opponet just like any other All Eggs unit.

 

[benccowan]

Black Knights might not have a 2+ save in the new book..

Otherwise, it's a nice all-eggs-in-one-basket unit which might do wonders or be 600 free VP's to your opponet just like any other All Eggs unit.

i must admit you are write but the regenerating the armour saves the ability to raise models back etc is just enough for me personaly to risk it besides with spells like vanhells how much shooting etc will you get in before thier mowing through your army plus any spells that add to safety wich you could possibly get from other lores i think its worth it. and why not the 2+ save??? :?: :'(

 

[User Deleted by Request]

There are other ways of killing units than shooting. You could get reared, flanked and ganked, or find yourself in front of two Organ Guns.

The save I'm not sure of, but in the Rumour Compilation it says that they're supposed to be medium cavalry in essence of TK's Heavy Horsemen. My bets on a 3+ save, maybe a 4+ but let's hope not.

 

[Mafo]

They have 3+ save and the option to buy barding for 2+ save.

 

[The Count]

Max unit size for Blood Knights is 20 I would rather bust the points out for the unit even though we're talking like 1250. But fun

 

[benccowan]

There are other ways of killing units than shooting. You could get reared, flanked and ganked, or find yourself in front of two Organ Guns.

The save I'm not sure of, but in the Rumour Compilation it says that they're supposed to be medium cavalry in essence of TK's Heavy Horsemen. My bets on a 3+ save, maybe a 4+ but let's hope not.

im hopeing to avoid such obvios mistakes and remmember its not an ''all eggs in one basket'' unit were talkin 2500+pts army here im just saying do you think its a good idea to have???

 

[Master Vampire]

Not good. Mind that this unit will probably cost 1000+ pts and the risk you involve to get swamped is too big. Isn't it the same for BK's? For every IoN only 1 gets raised back?

You missed one ability though... they can move as ethereals

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I can see the idea your going for and yes it would be a super killy unit that would mow down loads of things in its path but.......

That many points in ine unit is very dangerous, take for example an dwarf army that has a grudge thrower, organ gun and maybe a cannon, those kind of things will mess up this unit or if someone gets off a Pit of Shades Spell.

Also can someone clarify whether your regeneration works the same as a ward, i.e you roll before you mulitply wounds or do you roll per wound caused as a great cannon causes D6 wounds so theres a good chance even with a regenration he would be dead.

All in al I think I would prefer to split into two smaller units

 

[darknesseternal]

It's an everything or nothing unit.. could wipe out everything in it's path and crush the opposing army.. or you could find yourself against a wily opponent who will know how to misdirect it, pin it, nullify it, and take it apart and see you lose a whole bunch of VP's, and pretty much the game, in one unit.

It also screams of cheese, so if it does prove to be a real winner, you might have difficulty getting regular opponents wanting to face off against such a list, and who could blame them?

 

[Mafo]

2 organguns, lets say 20 hits. Of these 13.33 will wound on 3+. Then they will save on 5+, thats 4.44 saves. 8.89 wounds left and of those 4.45 will be regenerated. So 2 organguns that does maximum hits will kill about 4.5 knights a turn. They probably wont get 20 hits, lets say they do 15 hits instead, then 3 knights will die. Only 17 knights, lord and BSB left then. So this unit wouldnt mind standing in front of 2 organguns...

 

[benccowan]

but as i sed before (especialy by using terraiain correctly) and magic e.g van hel's before i can be shot i i would be in combat by either the 1st or second turn

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Against skaven (My Skaven!!!) you'd be horribly out gunned. 20 jazzails firing into yer knights in combat, anyone? Not to mention rattling guns, warpfire throwers, poisoned wind globadiers, a Screaming Bell, lots and lots of warplock engineers, and a pair of warplightning cannons - so are you feeling lucky? Punk?

You're not even safe in combat! All I can say is "send out the slaves!!"
Honestly, you'd be lucky to get a danse going... even though it'd be straight into bullets!
Its a good idea in theory, but it wouldn't really work so well in real life.

 

[The Dead of Night]

2 organguns, lets say 20 hits. Of these 13.33 will wound on 3+. Then they will save on 5+, thats 4.44 saves. 8.89 wounds left and of those 4.45 will be regenerated. So 2 organguns that does maximum hits will kill about 4.5 knights a turn. They probably wont get 20 hits, lets say they do 15 hits instead, then 3 knights will die. Only 17 knights, lord and BSB left then. So this unit wouldnt mind standing in front of 2 organguns...

True, but remember every second dwarven warmachine has a rune of burning on it. I have a cannon with burning and forging and a grudge thrower with accuracy and burning. Both negate armour, both negate regen. One will get a few hits that will pretty much all kill, the other will get more hits but less kills per hit.

Hell S7 bolt throwers with runes of burning don't even have to hope for a flank shot opportunity.

I can pretty much ignore every other unit and focus everything on this one.

Remember also that the two ranks on the back are effectivly providing 2-3 CR, a larger target, a juicier target, a more important target. Those 2 ranks cost a bucket for the cost.

Now consider what this unit must do in order to earn its keep. if you charge ANY unit front on you will probably win and break them, then you should probably persue, assuming you catch them (not always the way it goes) you have to spend time moving them so they can charge another unit. you probably have to wipe out 2-5 units to make your points up. Now imagine playing skaven or goblins.

People can get the drop on you with their own knights, perhaps hitting your flank, thanks to unseen lurker (> Danse btw) and a good anvil unit or march blocker. True you are in combat ver early, but this can happen at any time during the game, it does not have to be before you've destroyed any units, hell you could destroy plenty and the guy has just moved his way into a place where he can wipe you out. You are likely killing what 200 points per unit? Say you aim for a character's unit, he could even leave the unit if he wanted but even if he stays... 300 points. Now try turning with a knight unit 4 ranks deep...

Lots can go wrong and you +2-3 CR wont save you.



Consider what you can do if you drop those ranks.

1. Buy another unit, 2 targets are harder to deal with, can combine charges or charge seperate units. Can provide a different tactic, ie buy another unit of non BK
2. smaller target for my GT and other template weapons

 

[LiveUndead]

Im only going to be fielding BKs in units of 6 tops for flankers. I find with all cavalry with the exception of Bretonians to be too expensive and hard to use in units larger than 6

 

[Nedar]

Why not just run Blood Knights at that point? Far more attacks, at a higher STR. More manuverable, plays better with vampires (Vamps in BKs negate ethereal movement). The horses get frenzy too, and we all know that knights are there to give horses the 2+ armor save! Why even bother with that many? Run 12 at most 7 wide with 2 or 3 vampires. If you need the CR from a rank or two, you are in trouble.

KotBK, not sure of their max size, but why get a bunch at 55 a pop?

5 KotBK - Full Command, Banner of Blood Keep (Ward off shooting nicely), Baleful lance on Champ if you have the urge.
= 400pts +Magic weapon

Vampire Lord - Dread Knight, Red Fury, Beguile, Dread Lance, Book of Arkhan (Wana make these guys go fast?)
= 400pts

Vampire - Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, BSB - Drakenhoff
= 300pts

1100point unit. 7 Models, 3+ ward to shooting, 4+ regen, Frenzy, 2+ armor all around, a bucket of attacks onto anything. If you really wana be silly, you can get another vampire in here, but you'd be getting beyond rediclous at that point.

Lord will have 4 attacks that auto-hit, are S7, can reroll to wound a lot of the time (I just realized that Beguile was re-roll to wound not to hit lol). You'll get another auto-hitting attack for each wound caused. Can be beguiled again. This guy is enough to break a lot of units heh. You'll be running with like 5+ CR with his attacks alone unless you wiff it, and have +2 from banners, sitting at 7 CR before your other vampires get to strike.

BSB has 3 S7 attacks, rerolling to hit.

Then you get to the Blood Knights: SIXTEEN attacks, S7 again. No rerolls (Banner of Strigos anyone?) but who needs them at this point.

If anything survies that blistering amount of damage you got 7 Horses, 5 have frenzy, so 12 horse attacks....and again, we all know horses do better than knights (well, I think KotBK will help dent this fact of life heh).

I dont forsee anything but a huge unit of unbreakable stuff holding up to this units charge. Way better than black knights in every way. You'll have a vamp with BoA (drop it for cursed book and Cadaverous Cuirass to hunt enemy characters :evilgrin and a vampire with good chance of getting the spell he can cast 2 times or so. Helps midigate your opponent leading your frenzied unit around the board.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I agree with Nedar (you might want to remove the points cost you posted before the mods notice), either field in two smaller units or have KotBK.

If your having to rely on scenery to protect your troops there something wrong and since you can't always count on magic as well I reaaly thin kthat against some armies your just leaving yourself wide open.

But saying that one of the fun things about warhammer is trying things out, so if want give it a go and see what happens and don't forget to let us know how it goes.

 

[The Count]

Why not just run Blood Knights at that point? Far more attacks, at a higher STR. More manuverable, plays better with vampires (Vamps in BKs negate ethereal movement). The horses get frenzy too, and we all know that knights are there to give horses the 2+ armor save! Why even bother with that many? Run 12 at most 7 wide with 2 or 3 vampires. If you need the CR from a rank or two, you are in trouble.

KotBK, not sure of their max size, but why get a bunch at 55 a pop?

5 KotBK - Full Command, Banner of Blood Keep (Ward off shooting nicely), Baleful lance on Champ if you have the urge.
= 400pts +Magic weapon

Vampire Lord - Dread Knight, Red Fury, Beguile, Dread Lance, Book of Arkhan (Wana make these guys go fast?)
= 400pts

Vampire - Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, BSB - Drakenhoff
= 300pts

1100point unit. 7 Models, 3+ ward to shooting, 4+ regen, Frenzy, 2+ armor all around, a bucket of attacks onto anything. If you really wana be silly, you can get another vampire in here, but you'd be getting beyond rediclous at that point.

Lord will have 4 attacks that auto-hit, are S7, can reroll to wound a lot of the time (I just realized that Beguile was re-roll to wound not to hit lol). You'll get another auto-hitting attack for each wound caused. Can be beguiled again. This guy is enough to break a lot of units heh. You'll be running with like 5+ CR with his attacks alone unless you wiff it, and have +2 from banners, sitting at 7 CR before your other vampires get to strike.

BSB has 3 S7 attacks, rerolling to hit.

Then you get to the Blood Knights: SIXTEEN attacks, S7 again. No rerolls (Banner of Strigos anyone?) but who needs them at this point.

If anything survies that blistering amount of damage you got 7 Horses, 5 have frenzy, so 12 horse attacks....and again, we all know horses do better than knights (well, I think KotBK will help dent this fact of life heh).

I dont forsee anything but a huge unit of unbreakable stuff holding up to this units charge. Way better than black knights in every way. You'll have a vamp with BoA (drop it for cursed book and Cadaverous Cuirass to hunt enemy characters :evilgrin and a vampire with good chance of getting the spell he can cast 2 times or so. Helps midigate your opponent leading your frenzied unit around the board.

I mentioned it on the first Page these guys can roll with 20 in a unit, Basket? what basket, all we have is eggs, lots of egggs.