Zombie Dragon, list and build.

[DanteAlSimmon]

Intro:
Coming from Lizardmen, I started Vampire Counts for 2 reasons.

1st: I wanted to play with one of the most versatile and effective combat lords in the game

2nd: He could ride to war on a massive flying beast of an undead dragon!

(as I write this: Vampire, Zombie dragon..big swords....sounds like my Skyrim character)

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Description:
I went head in to a tournament, only with a single Undead Legion / Vampire counts game under my belt, and I did so with this guy to lead:

Vampire Lord
GW
Heavy Armor
Nightshroud
Talis of Pers
OTS
Lvl 2 Death (undead legion)

I lost the first games, trying to get accostumed to what my lord.
The more I understood how incredibly solid this duo was, the more aggressive I played him, the more points I got, the more WIN

He took a Doombull on Carpet with Mark of Tzeentch (Chaos Legion) to the face, and wipped the floor with him before he even got to swing = SOLD!!

While he is VERY costy (not for what he does, but for the armys total pts)
I just feel like bringing everytime, and I always feel sad if I dont put him in my list.


I already found out that if he gets out of the healing bubble, he is in trouble,
So I found that Lvl 2 LoV is necessary, and perfectly viable, for him.
(Is it correct that Invocation can only heal him/his mount with the lore attribute, and not the spell effect itself?)

For list I usually play 1 t-bat, 2 units of Morghasts and 2 units of Fellbats, as flying/hover support.
The Morghast herald ability is VERY useful if he gets pinned in a tough static ress that he cant get through first round of combat (".....oh those knights can call challenges?...I forgot -.-')
The use of the rest I take you can guess for yourself.

core I used 40 ghouls and zombies, but are currently swapping for Zombies, wolves and skeletons.

All is usually backed up by 2 lvl2 necros with LoV (dispel scroll + The good book)

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The question:

- How do more experienced players run him, when and if they do?
- What list would he fit in?
- What lists should fit around him?

Until Undead Legions gets its own actual Army Book my gaming environment does not accept it as an actual army (we run ETC mainly) except for special Tourneys.
This means: Please restrain answers to fit the Vampire Count book

Thanks!

 

[Deamon]

I tried to run him once but my meta is packed by dwarf/ogre/empire/Daemons canons which make him unplayed... but it's a shame because I love the model.

 

[Demian]

Hello! and welcome to the forum!

First, I'd like to invite you to check out our very own handbook, written by two excellent generals here:

https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/sunny-najo’s-vampire-counts-handbook-2014.27561/

However, to address your more specific questions:

1. We (as a concensus) like to run our Vampire Lords extra killy, with all the benefits that this 8th edition has to offer, combat-wise. That means, re-rolls! So, to start, we like to dress our vampires to te top with as much Armour as possible, AND as much Ward save as possible, so expect us to field them with Enchanted Shield or Dragonhelm and a Talisman of Preservation. I know those net a ton of points, but are well worth it in an army that relies so much on characters. Also, consider giving him a "defensive" vampiric power as well, such as Beguile or (to an extent) Dreadknight.

• Now, for the killy part, that comes in the form of Ogre Blade. A great Weapon is cool too, but it prevents us from both striking first (via the Quickblood vampiric power) and re-rolling from the ASF. the To-Hit roll is one of the most important aspects of the game, and we like to get that covered!
  
• Last, but not least, adding the Red Fury vampiric power ensures you can battle your way through hordes of enemies, or gives you that extra-chance to kill that pesky lord with a second-ish chance, depending on the wounds dealt. If not, it can help you achieve Overkill in any challenge, since those extra attacks are performed at the same initiative step, and thus are instantaneous.
• Always have him as a Lvl 4 Caster, unless you are planning on bringing a dedicated wizard (like a Master Necromancer, or a High Liche Priest). Having a Lv 4 on the field is kinda mandatory for magical defense and offense.
  
• Now, all you need to do is select the mount you want and the role he will fulfill: Zombie Dragon? he will fly around, munching stuff that is dangerous. Barded Nightmare? he will go along a group of Black Knights (or Blood Knights if you have points to spare) and basically be backed up by a decent-hitting unit, in case he gets pinned down or fluffs his strikes. On foot, he can go well with Skeletons or Grave Guard, but that role is better used with a Tomb King/Prince because of their "My will be done" rule.

About what lists fit in and around him (in the case of Zombie Dragon), consider having one centered around him, and provide for what he needs most:

• Redirectors (Fell Bats and Dire Wolves) to ease up your flank and rear charges, and keep the pressure off the rest of the army
  
• Tarpits (Masses of Zombies, don't waste points on other infantry, they are the best, points-wise)
• Threat removal (cannons can really hurt this guy, have something to threaten, like Vargheists) EDIT: also, don't underestimate the power of Sepulchral Stalkers with their "beneath the sands" rule. They can pop out and "shoot" at War machines, right from the start, and are not so unreliable. Scorpion Golems can too, but you'll have to wait a turn before they can charge. Skeleton Archer Riders can serve you as well, if you know your opponent has a loose formation and keeps his cannons very far from his main army, your scouts can easily overcome (of not at least distract) any cannon crew, regardless of shooting (charge with them! they have more attacks that way).
  
• A side-kick that can go with him and wreack havoc (since you can fly, you can keep up with the march moves of Hexwraiths, Terrorgheists, Necrosphinxes, Colossus and basically all Monsters from the Tomb Kings army), even consider Varghulfs to do your dirty work against infantry.
• You shouldn't worry about enemy chaff, since you can easily fly above them, so Skeleton Archers should not be needed.
• Choose your Lore with care: Lore of Undeath on a flying dude overcomes the 12'' limitations it has, and even with Ryze, you can summon threats right in the heart of the fight. Lore of the Vampires, will keep your Lord healed, and his accompanying troops replenished, plus you are always in range for a Curse of years or a devastating Wind of Death, should the moment arise. Lore of Death, being so close is just wonderful, as you can cast Fate of Bjuna / Caress of Laniph with ease, and have dice to spare for an über Soulblight (area) or a Doom and Darkness, to make your screaming easier.

That's what I've got for you, off the top of my head

EDIT 2: Missed the part where you could only include Vampire Counts stuff, and not Undead Legions... but, those are included as well then =)

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Damn, that was a good post.

 

[heldantes]

Only thing I disagree with is I think a zombie dragon Lord with night shroud is excellent.

VL, lvl 4, LoV
Heavy armour, Shield, Lance
Nightshroud, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard
Red Fury, Quick blood and (I usually use summon creatures as I have loads of dire wolves running around but beguile is good).

The Nightshroud instead of an ogre blade is more defensive move (no GW as re rolls are so important, you should be making your charges for strength 7, and the dragon has strength 6 attacks for more prolonged combat), but if you get charged by lances, great weapon units, or other characters using an ogre blade, it's just the best item in our book.

 

[The Sun King]

Demian did a great job there, and thanks for the kinds words dude

I've recently started playing with the Zombie Dragon Lord competitively. Not to toot my own horn but try checking out my thread about it here: https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/zombiedragon-lord-etc-tournament.28888/

In my humble opinion the build that heldantes just wrote is the best one, this is because of a couple of reasons:
1. Level 4 LoV is important because Lore of Vampires is GREAT support for a mounted flying lord: Vanhel's can give him the extra movement he needs to get out of a pinch or transport other units that he needs with him. IoN is good because being alive (okay undead) is good thing. Raise Dead is great because you can protect the flanks of the dragon with redirection. And Gaze of Nagash is nice to have since you can pick out single units that gets in your way (or nice targets such as Bray Shamans around a Herd Stone).
2. Lance... Well a static +2 bonus from Ogre Blade would be preferable, but you need all 100 points of magic allowance on other stuff. So a +2 on the charge (which you will most often get because you fly) is a good and cheap alternative. The reason why you want to grab the Lance over the great weapons is because A) you get REROLLS!!! and B) you get a better save which is great.
3. Nightshroud. Okay, we're to begin? This item is EPIC. It nullyfies most threats in CC to your Lord AND it gives you a armour save buff. How awesome is that? This is probably the best defensive item in our army. Sure a ward save is nice, but not getting wounded in the first place is outright better. It also ensures that you get rerolls against other units with Always Strikes first, which is a good offensive trait.
4. Other Trickster's Shard. This item WRECKS daemons and enemy characters. You really need this item when you battle combat oriented enemy characters.
5. Talisman of Preservation. 4++ is needed, not much to say really.

Also, you might want consider bringing Vargheists with a champion so that you can keep your Lord out of challenges (where he wastes his awesome martial skills).

 

[Demian]

Ah yes! Forgot about the Nightshroud!

Sorry, to clarify, the "standard" Vampire Lord uses Ogre blades a lot, but in this particular case, Heldantes and The Sun King got it!

Zombie Dragons are quite the beast, and will also get hit a lot ( since this edition doesn't have a combined Armor Save for ridden monsters D: ) and Lore of Vampires is by far, the key to staying undead. The triple protection from Nightshroud, Talisman of Preservation and Swarm of Flies should keep the dragon safe-ish in close combat. Just watch out for those cannonballs, and park your Vargheists/Morghasts in the trayectory and hope they deflect it with their mass.

 

[DanteAlSimmon]

First of: Thanks for the feedback!
Second: Forgot to put powers in
I use Quickblood, red fury and beguile as standard setup

A lot of your input I already "knew" (more like an assumption) so its nice to get a "yes..yes thats how its done".

I was in doubt about "lance" or "GW" but after my vamp flunked his attacks for 3 combat rounds in a row, I see the GW makes little sense if it never gets to wound. I will Lance-a-lot from now on!

Also: Being a lizardplayer im used to putting many points in my lord, but a Vampire + dragon + lvl 4 is somewhat a new level for me!
I see the points you put forward, and will try it!

I also have a soft spot for Blood Knights (while I realize they are costly!)
so thinking of having my 5 Gamezone MourneKnights run along side him puts a smile to my face


a couple questions:

1. Is it correct that Invocation can only heal him/his mount with the lore attribute, and not the spell effect itself?
- addendum: and Bloodknights cannot get a model back from attribute, only invocation effect itself?

2. Sword of Anti heroes - go or no go?
Because of the huge base one would imagine that he would gain an ENOURMOUS damage output if clashing a deathstar heads on. Combined with a nightshroud, one could figure that he would also get to wreck havoc before anyone else gets to do anything...this however comes with the price of no Wardsave.

3. what other characters would you put in alongside him? (thinking heroes here)
a necro or two I guess?
theres not a lot of points to go around!

again: thanks for your input
The handbook didnt cover the dragon, and the other threads regarding it had little intel in them.
I guess the 50% lords made people look his way again, I know I did!

 

[DanteAlSimmon]

also: Glittering scales + Swarm of flies?
-1 armor, no nightshroud, but its still -2 to hit for all enemies (brutal with a beguile when facing characters and denying re-rolls with quickblood!)

anyone has input on this matter?

 

[Hellion Nox]

i think that you'll benefit more from the nightshroud because of the large footprint you have on a zombie dragon. It also provides more protection. Nullifying enemies strength bonusses etc.

 

[The Sun King]

Glittering Scales effectively reduces your armour save with 2 when compared to Nightshroud and doesn't make it harder for the enemy to wound. I think Nightshroud outranks Glittering.

1. No that is not correct. The Vamp gets one wound from the IoN, the Zombie Dragon gets one wound from IoN and then one of them can get one extra wound from the Lore Attribute

2. No go. Not that it isn't good, but what would you drop to get it? Nightshroud? 4++? OTS?

3. I don't put any characters alongside him other than a back-up necro with a dispel scroll.

Regarding the lack of Zombie Dragon in the Hand Book - it comes in our next expansion.

 

[Hellion Nox]

Regarding the lack of Zombie Dragon in the Hand Book - it comes in our next expansion.

I'm really looking forward to this.

 

[DanteAlSimmon]

1. No that is not correct. The Vamp gets one wound from the IoN, the Zombie Dragon gets one wound from IoN and then one of them can get one extra wound from the Lore Attribute

Well, then I can say as much as I would have most certainly not have lost the way I did multiple times in said tournament. -.-'

Good to know, thanks!
but can you also tell me the argument behind ?
is it because they are treated as separate entities even though they are one model?

 

[TheTrans]

I'd also run a Level 4 Master Necro with the Periapt aswell as the vampragon (have him level 1), you can fit that into a 2k battle, not need to worry as much about nuking your vamp lord, and the Periapt is bloody crazy usefull!!

 

[The Sun King]

The reasoning is this: The spell states that each unit targeted by the spell gains d6+level wounds lost earlier in the battle. The Vampire Lord has the Vampiric special rule and is thus limited to gaining 1 wound per casting and the same goes for the Zombie Dragon, being a Large Target. This means that each gain a wound back from the spell itself. The Lore Attribute is SEPARATE and thus does not count in aforementioned limitation and you can put an extra wound back on either the lord or the dragon. Does that make sense?

 

[Demian]

I think we have aproblem here, regarding the Resurrecting Fallen warriors in the Undead Legions's rules (Nagash) where it reads "unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost wounds cannot heal characters and their mounts"

this would lead us to think that invocation of Nehek would do nothing if a character was targeted by the augment, then it also reads:

"If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds"


and all this matters because:

in the Vampire Counts rulebook, there is a paragraph where it says: "if the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse Cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value"

the "revised" Undead Legions version of Resurreccting Fallen Warriors, (which includes the part where Vampiric "units" not "models" can never regain more than 1 wound ) does not contain the above sentence, thus trumping the argument.

So... I'm afraid that by VC armybook standards, you may heal your lone character. But by Undead Legions "updated" rules you are no longer able D:

comments? counter-arguments?

 

[Alabaster427]

1. No that is not correct. The Vamp gets one wound from the IoN, the Zombie Dragon gets one wound from IoN and then one of them can get one extra wound from the Lore Attribute

I think we have aproblem here, regarding the Resurrecting Fallen warriors in the Undead Legions's rules (Nagash) where it reads "unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost wounds cannot heal characters and their mounts"

this would lead us to think that invocation of Nehek would do nothing if a character was targeted by the augment, then it also reads:

"If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds"


and all this matters because:

in the Vampire Counts rulebook, there is a paragraph where it says: "if the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse Cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value"

the "revised" Undead Legions version of Resurreccting Fallen Warriors, (which includes the part where Vampiric "units" not "models" can never regain more than 1 wound ) does not contain the above sentence, thus trumping the argument.

So... I'm afraid that by VC armybook standards, you may heal your lone character. But by Undead Legions "updated" rules you are no longer able D:

comments? counter-arguments?

Well, the BRB says when a rule is in conflict, reference the army book. Nagash book has spells that references Resurrecting Fallen Warriors in the Nagash book. Invocation of Nehek specifically says to reference Resurrecting Fallen Warriors in the VC book. So IoN would revert back to the VC book and ignore Nagash RFW.

 

[The Sun King]

Doesn't matter that much in my case since when I use the Zombie Dragon it is in tournaments with the ETC comp where I'm forced to play with the VC rules.

But I'll have to keep it in mind for my UL lists though ( I don't think I'll field a ZD in them though )

 

[Burnanation]

We have forgotten the most important reason to take Nightshroud over Glittering Scales. Thou shall not make sparkly shiny vampires.

 

[Deamon]

We have forgotten the most important reason to take Nightshroud over Glittering Scales. Thou shall not make sparkly shiny vampires.

+1

 

[hairyjeff]

Don't forget that the vampire also benefits from 'the Hunger" rule. Although it's never worked for me !

 

[Sception]

Didn't the VC book also have the note preventing healing of characters unless specifically stated otherwise (as in the lore attribute)? I'm pretty sure the zombie dragon & vamp lord don't heal from invocation (again apart from the lore attribute) regardless of which book you're playing out of.

 

[Alabaster427]

Didn't the VC book also have the note preventing healing of characters unless specifically stated otherwise (as in the lore attribute)? I'm pretty sure the zombie dragon & vamp lord don't heal from invocation (again apart from the lore attribute) regardless of which book you're playing out of.

I thought it did too, but when I looked it up again, it seemed to say the opposite. How many vampires could have not died again?

 

[Sception]

It's plain as day on page 26 of the vamp book, under 'resurrecting fallen warriors'.

Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts.

Invocation's regular effect does not specifically say otherwise, but the lore attribute does (via FAQ).

You cannot heal either the Vampire Lord or the Zombie Dragon via the normal effect of Invocation. You can only restore a single wound per casting via the lore attribute effect, same as with any other vamp lore spell. It doesn't matter whether you're playing plain Vamp Counts or Undead Legions, the phrasing is the same on this matter.

 

[Emicrania]

One question thought, isn't the nightshroud already an heavy armour?
If not than heavy armour+nightshroud+mount+ToP goes to 3+4++, 'aight?