Zombiedragon Lord ETC Tournament

[najo]

Just always good to get a practice in.

I've never used archai or harbingers so couldn't say if Crypt Horrors are better, but CHs could definitely serve as a perfect protector for your ZD, and it's amazing to be able to squeeze in a unit of 8 on top of everything else. Suddenly makes the list much more padded out.

Pure power level, morghasts are better. Points wise you get double the crypt horrors to morghasts. So the crypt horrors are more anvil for your buck. They serve different roles because of this.

 

[najo]

Er, I think it means European Tournament Championship? Not 100% though and only ever played using its rules three times now.

I don't think a second level is needed on the necro. You'd be unlucky not to roll a double on four dice and be able to swap one for invo and one for vanhels or raise at a minimum but, yeah, likely get all three of those spells.

If he wants to ensure he gets all the vampire spells he needs and wants to control which spells end up on the lord, you need a level 2 and a level 4. Otherwise it's random what goes where.

What you do is roll the level 2 first and then swap out the spell for the lord with the signature. Then lord has a higher chance of getting a duplicate roll and choosing spells.

 

[najo]

Yeah I thought about the same thing with switching wraiths for SH but I still need 5 points more for the level...

I think wraiths key advantage over spirit hosts is they can hide in your units. Post wood elves that's huge.

 

[Asmodeus]

I cannot find the points for a second level on the Necro at the moment. Any ideas?

Skip Arcai - put Tbat and you have spare points on necro. Scream and better target saturation during shooting phase is not bad.

 

[Alabaster427]

Skip Arcai - put Tbat and you have spare points on necro. Scream and better target saturation during shooting phase is not bad.

The TBat IS slightly harder to wound, but the Archai are harder to hit. They also have more hits and hit harder than the TBat and have the -1 to crumble. A TBat may draw some fire away from the Zombie Dragon, but I think that the Archai are the better choice in this list.

 

[Asmodeus]

the Archai are the better choice in this list.

Depends. They are more costly. To be effective, they must charge into combat while terror is dangerous outside of it, and have greater threat range. And is cheaper. And it can kill high T model more easilly than Archai.

 

[The Sun King]

Okay I went to the gym and when I came back this thread had gone haywire

@Alabaster427 ETC stands for European Team Championship and they have a soft comp that you can find here: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=126956&start=0

@Asmodeus The Terrorgheist doesn't synergize well with this list since I don't have lore of death, Aura or heavens. Also, point for point the Archai outperform the Terrorgheist. They have a save, are way harder to hit with shooting and in close combat, they have way more wounds for the points and they can actually kill things and their footprint is smaller than a TG.

@najo Rolling for 2 levels with the necro is actually a bit risky since I can only make one of them the signature. So for example if the necro rolls Vanhel's and Raise Dead one of them is stuck on him which is subpar. I don't see how having the two levels means that I WILL get the spells that I want... could you elaborate?

 

[Alabaster427]

I think a lot of those rules are dumb. I guess I can't move to Europe now (or ever). Two of the best things about Lore of Undeath is free units and ethereals. Basically, anyone who uses Undeath would be at a severe disadvantage.

 

[The Sun King]

Everybody has their own view of comps, but this thread was supposed to discuss my list, no the comp

 

[Seneschal]

I liked your first list better as I feel harbingers suit it more than horrors. I'd drop the horrors and the banshees for 4 of them and take a sole wraith.

 

[The Sun King]

I think the CH win out against Harbingers because I don't have the models and I have enough painting to get done anyways The Harbingers need to be a MUCH better choice, and I don't think they are, if I'm going that route.

 

[najo]

Skip Arcai - put Tbat and you have spare points on necro. Scream and better target saturation during shooting phase is not bad.

My 3 archai unit killed a Bloodthirster last time I played with them

 

[najo]

@najo Rolling for 2 levels with the necro is actually a bit risky since I can only make one of them the signature. So for example if the necro rolls Vanhel's and Raise Dead one of them is stuck on him which is subpar. I don't see how having the two levels means that I WILL get the spells that I want... could you elaborate?

That's a rare fluke and it still be ok. Just signature out the VHDM (so its near combat with the VL), keep RD on the Necro. RD has long enough range.

The deal is, you're trying to not get stuck with Hellish Vigor, Wind of Death, Gaze of Nagash and Curse of Years on your level 4 and not get VHDM or Raise Dead at all, right? Even if you get a double, you only get one of those spells. A level 2 means you like will get both those spells on the VL unless you happen to roll them both on the level 2. But the odds are less likely that is going to happen and even if it does, the control over making sure the VL has optimal spells is worth the small risk of getting RD stuck on the necro. A level 1 can't do any spell shifting at all. They either keep what they get (Raise Dead or VHDM, eek!) or they swap and do nothing to help you control odds. At least with a level 2, you're getting some form of spell selection for the Level 4.

 

[The Sun King]

@najo I see your point. Still not seeing where to get the points though. My Archai also slayed a Bloodthirster in my lasts Tourny

 

[najo]

You're not going to like my suggestion, but here it goes...

Lose the dispel scroll and the champion in which special unit needs it less.

Or

Lose an Archai and put in a third wraith and level.

 

[bigbadbat]

Let me chime in...
Not sure where your list is at presently, got lost in the muck.
But... I prefer the banshees in units opposed to Wraiths. Sure, wraiths have more attacks, but the scream although not dependable when it works it works wonders. I'd also go CH over Harbs and maybe lose a varg to fit in pts for banshee.
Archai are ace!
Why no Lance and Shield on that vamp?
GW is fine, but there's plenty of high strength attacks on the dragon to offset lack of GW.
If Str 7 on charge plus RF and re rolls plus Dragon attacks (and breath weapon and Tstomp) don't do it, yiu charged the wrong thing.
My 2 cents...

 

[The Sun King]

@najo You are right I don't think those alternatives are nearly as good as keeping the level 1 as is.

@bigbadbat You just completely sold me on Lance+Shield! This is the new list:

Lord:
Vampire Lord: Zombie Dragon: Nightshroud, Lance, Shield, Heavy Armour, Talisman of Preservation, OTS, RF, QB, Level 4 Lore of Vampires

Heroes:
Wraith
Necro: Level 1 Lore of Vampires, Dispel Scroll

Core:
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
20 Zombies: Banner
20 Zombies: Banner
20 Zombies: Banner
42 Skeleton Warriors: FC, Banner of Swiftness

Special:
Spirit Host
3 Vargheist: Champion
8 Crypt Horrors: Crypt Haunter

Rare:
4 Archai

Total: 2386

 

[najo]

@najo You are right I don't think those alternatives are nearly as good as keeping the level 1 as is.

@bigbadbat You just completely sold me on Lance+Shield! This is the new list:

Lord:
Vampire Lord: Zombie Dragon: Nightshroud, Lance, Shield, Heavy Armour, Talisman of Preservation, OTS, RF, QB, Level 4 Lore of Vampires

Heroes:
Wraith
Necro: Level 1 Lore of Vampires, Dispel Scroll

Core:
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
20 Zombies: Banner
20 Zombies: Banner
20 Zombies: Banner
42 Skeleton Warriors: FC, Banner of Swiftness

Special:
Spirit Host
3 Vargheist: Champion
8 Crypt Horrors: Crypt Haunter

Rare:
4 Archai

Total: 2386

Fair enough, but I do think losing the spirit host so you can get that level is worth it. FWIW, I never use a dispel scroll. Ever. Seriously.

 

[The Sun King]

I always regret not bringing one when I occasionally try the "najo-way"

 

[bigbadbat]

Happy to help!
Now... Don't have the current ETC draft in front of me, but...
(In Darth Vader voice) Your lack of Fell Bats is disturbing.
Are you maxed at flying units/qb/rf?
That leftover 14pts + dropping that SH = 2 units of Fell bats.
Imagine for a second...
Your VL declares a charge. reaction flee.
FB charge- keep fleeing. FB charge- bye bye!
FB are fantastic Dragon escorts. They keep crap of the dragon, and if you set up charge lanes correctly, can really seal the deal!

 

[Alabaster427]

Happy to help!
Now... Don't have the current ETC draft in front of me, but...
(In Darth Vader voice) Your lack of Fell Bats is disturbing.
Are you maxed at flying units/qb/rf?
That leftover 14pts + dropping that SH = 2 units of Fell bats.
Imagine for a second...
Your VL declares a charge. reaction flee.
FB charge- keep fleeing. FB charge- bye bye!
FB are fantastic Dragon escorts. They keep crap of the dragon, and if you set up charge lanes correctly, can really seal the deal!

The problem with that is if the target unit gets out of charge range after it's first (or second) flee and the FB can't charge. Even if successful in this strategy, then you would have to roll the charge distance for all three units at once and they would likely not be able to make the charge distance and be considered a failed charge, potentially leaving your VL in a really bad spot. However, there is an even more optimal situation in which the VL declares charge and the unit flees. Units around it flee. VL redirects and causes another flee. FB charge first unit, it flees, redirects to second unit, also flees. And so on... doubling your damage or better. I guess it basically comes down to how the units are lined up.

 

[Bullhax]

BBB is as usual right.. I'd even wager that loosing the wraith to gain felbats will net you more than you loose.. But SH is another place to get points.

Do not using your comp. 'choice' grant you anything beneficial? As i see it you only use 3 'choices' 1 for QB/RF, 1 for the SH and wraith. That still leaves two points.

At the very least you can take one fellbat unit without increasing the score..

 

[najo]

I always regret not bringing one when I occasionally try the "najo-way"

Granted, having a monster riding character means you may have to save his ass. But most spells come down to damaged we heal. Since dispel scrolls can't stop IF spells, players expect to have to deal with scroll and it's one use, plus most casters can be shutdown by engaging or sniping them, I find the dispel scroll is not always the best choice. Tactics can supersede it. But, I can see how protecting the zombie dragon lord needs protection with it.

That magic level seems important. The zombie dragon character needs the right spells, and the rest of the army needs decent support and a bit more than a level 1 IoN. For example, gaze of Nagash on the necro could be extremely valuable. Just roll the Lord first, kick gaze of Nagash off him with signature and then there is a high chance the necro gets GoN.

It's that control between the necro and dragon rider and whatever your match up is that isn't possible unless you have a level 4 and 2.

Just my two cents. Totally respect your final decision, and it isn't an easy one as everything on the block has value.

 

[najo]

Happy to help!
Now... Don't have the current ETC draft in front of me, but...
(In Darth Vader voice) Your lack of Fell Bats is disturbing.
Are you maxed at flying units/qb/rf?
That leftover 14pts + dropping that SH = 2 units of Fell bats.
Imagine for a second...
Your VL declares a charge. reaction flee.
FB charge- keep fleeing. FB charge- bye bye!
FB are fantastic Dragon escorts. They keep crap of the dragon, and if you set up charge lanes correctly, can really seal the deal!

I agree with the tactics, but in this list what can fell bats do that die wolves can't if they run with the dragon rider? They have 1" extra move and can hop over things, but dire wolves are capable of doing everything else.

 

[The Sun King]

Wow, thanks for all the brilliant input @bigbadbat @najo @Bullhax @Alabaster427 ! This is what I love the most on the forum, when we get a good discussion going!

The Fell Bats: I totally see their use but I think that with my Vargheists, Archai and Dire Wolves I'm pretty much in the clear regarding double charges. Unless I have missed something.

The Level: I agree with the pros of having the extra level, but I don't think it outweighs the cons of removing my ethereal stuff.

The use of Comp Points: As @Bullhax noted I haven't used all my comp points. There is no benefit to this but at the same time I don't know what to use them on as the list is pretty solid as is and I'm not sure the use of comp points would improve it.

Another question for you awesome dudes: Is there a way to improve my core selection? Do I need Doomwolves?