As far as the use of Zombies go, is it more prudent to bus them in ranks of five, or go horde with a full-on 10 wide mess?
Zombies: Bus or No Buss?
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Agreed. Zombies are for holding other units up for as long as possible, not winning combat. Best way to do that is to limit your opponents attacks and give you as much rank bonus as possible.
The only time you wouldn't bus then is if your opponent was also using 5 wide units and then you might benefit from an extra few attacks by going wider. Even so a smart person would combat reform wider so even then you are better five wide 
Von Calyptra
Black Knight
I think the problem here is largely with the nomenclature. I here "horde," and I think, "Zombies. Zombies belong in hordes. It's their natural state, how they exist in the wild." But then I consider the rules and realize it's a trap. I wish they'd called hordes something else.
Honestly, it's not that clear cut.
If you are five wide, then seven enemy models can fit in base to base contact with your unit. This means you will only be limiting enemy attacks if the enemy unit is eight models wide, or wider.
I personally don't see many units that wide.
So, apart from limiting enemy attacks, what does 'busing' zombies do? It makes the unit longer. This means more ranks for the unit, which helps with Steadfast, and means you keep your +3 rank bonus for longer. However, I don't know about you guys but I tend to keep my Necromancers near to my infantry blocks, which means my Zombies are getting buffed with a lot of Invocations during the battle. Often the unit is 50+ strong by the time it gets into combat.
A huge unit like this doesn't need to protect it's rank bonus so zealously, and if it is deployed wider can easily absorb the extra hits it will attract from enemy units. Having a more narrow flank means it's also less likely to get charged in the flank as well.
Now, I will say that I never expect my Zombies to win combat. I expect them to die in droves and hold the enemy in place long enough to hit them with something a bit more choppy. So it doesn't matter to me if they lose by 2 or lose by 6, I'm not running a Blender Lord in there and trying to win combats.
To run the numbers, if you deploy ten wide, you expose yourself to 9 extra attacks from the enemy (assuming they are also deployed ten wide) which will probably work out at an extra four wounds. By contrast you're also generating 20 extra attacks of your own, which should generate a couple of wounds as well so the difference in results is minimal, except you're trading 3 point Zombies for enemy models which is almost always a good deal.
Of course, for smaller units a 5 wide deployment is much more useful.
If you are five wide, then seven enemy models can fit in base to base contact with your unit. This means you will only be limiting enemy attacks if the enemy unit is eight models wide, or wider.
I personally don't see many units that wide.
So, apart from limiting enemy attacks, what does 'busing' zombies do? It makes the unit longer. This means more ranks for the unit, which helps with Steadfast, and means you keep your +3 rank bonus for longer. However, I don't know about you guys but I tend to keep my Necromancers near to my infantry blocks, which means my Zombies are getting buffed with a lot of Invocations during the battle. Often the unit is 50+ strong by the time it gets into combat.
A huge unit like this doesn't need to protect it's rank bonus so zealously, and if it is deployed wider can easily absorb the extra hits it will attract from enemy units. Having a more narrow flank means it's also less likely to get charged in the flank as well.
Now, I will say that I never expect my Zombies to win combat. I expect them to die in droves and hold the enemy in place long enough to hit them with something a bit more choppy. So it doesn't matter to me if they lose by 2 or lose by 6, I'm not running a Blender Lord in there and trying to win combats.
To run the numbers, if you deploy ten wide, you expose yourself to 9 extra attacks from the enemy (assuming they are also deployed ten wide) which will probably work out at an extra four wounds. By contrast you're also generating 20 extra attacks of your own, which should generate a couple of wounds as well so the difference in results is minimal, except you're trading 3 point Zombies for enemy models which is almost always a good deal.
Of course, for smaller units a 5 wide deployment is much more useful.
The only time I've gone with anything besides 5-wide for zombies was in my last game where I used a unit of 100 with my blender lord inside. There wasn't enough room to have a 20-deep unit in my deployment zone so I went for the Horde, and after that I didn't want to waste any movement by making a swift reform. Either way, it still blended. 
Blutsauger said:
Interesting - I see quite a lot of units that wide.
Thing is, those are the units I usually want to tarpit for as long as possible.
Blutsauger said:
How long does it remain 50-strong though?
Speaking personally, I've easily lost about 60 zombies in just 2 rounds of combat. :grave:
Blutsauger said:
Aside from the flanking aspect though, I don't see the gain for the zombies.
Speaking personally, mine just don't cause casualties in combat, and I seriously doubt that a few extra attacks will change that.
Blutsauger said:
By 2 or 6? Blimey your zombies are more fortunate than mine.
My negative combat resolution tends towards 15 or 20. :O
I agree with Vipoid 100%.
Never ever use zombies in a horde.
@Blutsauger
If using zombies as a horde works for you I think it's your meta.
Alot of combat units are deployed in a horde formation and you can often loose 15-20 zombies in one round of combat against such a unit and crumble almost doubles that so you unit wont be big for very long. You will need those extra ranks.
Never ever use zombies in a horde.
@Blutsauger
If using zombies as a horde works for you I think it's your meta.
Alot of combat units are deployed in a horde formation and you can often loose 15-20 zombies in one round of combat against such a unit and crumble almost doubles that so you unit wont be big for very long. You will need those extra ranks.
Zhatan said:
Again, it depends. I don't know how you'd be losing an extra 20 zombies when, worst case scenario, you'd be facing an extra 12 attacks. And that's against enemy elites with two attacks.
Thing is, zombies are better in a column, but don't really lose much by being in a horde. The difference between a bus and a horde losing combat would only be an extra three or four points. And yeah, those points double with crumble. but when you're adding 15+ zombies a turn, who cares? I'd rather whittle the enemy unit down by a couple of extra models a turn than keep my already excessive rank bonus.
Blutsauger said:
I didn't say 20 extra zombies. You could loose 15-20 total and most likely kill 1-2 back. Resulting in nearly as many deaths from crumble.
The difference if you go horde in number of attacks against you are 9. If you are in bus formation he can attack with 21 guys but 30 if you are horde. This is assuming 1 attack and alot of elites have more.
How many extra kills that gives him really depends on the unit. It can be as low as 4-5 but it can also be more.
Also you shouldnt cout your ability to raise models back when doing calculations like this because magic can very often fail and besides that you would also have to take inte account what your enemy will be doing with his PD. So if you count your raise you will also have to count his possible buffs etc.
Blutsauger said:
Who said anything about an extra 20 zombies?
My point was that I've often lost 15-20 zombies a turn when in bus formation. I dread to think how many I'd lose in a horde...
Blutsauger said:
Well, surely it depends what you're against?
I know quite a few hordes that will kill many more than 4 extra zombies a turn if I let them all get attacks.
Blutsauger said:
It seems you have a much easier time getting spells off than I do. Whenever I use zombies, I can't get an invocation off to save my life. :grave:
Cela Shyish
Grave Guard
Reading all this makes me think it might just be better to go 1-wide and conga line zombies into battle, if miraculously everything doesn't just side step them then the 3point rank bonus they lose would be countered by the mass of attacks their opponents lose 
With the next pack of zombies I buy I'm gonna try to convert them to look like they're doing a conga line dance now...
With the next pack of zombies I buy I'm gonna try to convert them to look like they're doing a conga line dance now...
If it wasn't for the fact that space will limit the amount of zombies you can have in such a unit quite alot it might actually work.
Cela Shyish
Grave Guard
I'm gonna try it, I just need to figure out how to fit them on the board in deployment or find a good way to reform them before they engage...
The problem I see with it is that even if you manage to fit them in the deployment zone they will need alot of space to reform into a conga line because the center of the unit needs to remain the same and wheeling the unit will be almost impossible if you have 20+ models.
And even if you manage to do this yo will still loose maybe 5 models from combat + another 8 from combat res. Thats 13 models out of a unit that is already small due to the space issues.
But do try it and let us know how it went.
And even if you manage to do this yo will still loose maybe 5 models from combat + another 8 from combat res. Thats 13 models out of a unit that is already small due to the space issues.
But do try it and let us know how it went.
Vipoid said:
Granted, but think of it this way. In a bus formation you will lose, say, 17 models a turn. This will mean before the start of the fourth round of combat your unit is destroyed, and you've dealt out 30 attacks.
In a horde formation you will lose 23 models a turn, will still make it into the third round of combat and will have dealt out 90 attacks. This is without considering any spells.
If the purpose of the zombie unit is to tie an enemy unit in place, and drag down a handful of the enemy, then the difference between a horde and bus is fairly negligible, if we're talking about 50+ sized units. However I have to say, if the destruction of the zombie unit is assured, then I'd much rather have 90 attacks before the end than 30!
Zombies are fun and very dangerous tarpits if used correctly...
When Demis, MF or Skull crushers are on the table, I run my zombies 2 wide, however many deep.
With 2 zombies creating a 40mm frontage, only 2 50mm models can attack on the charge. Only by a combat reform can my opponent rank up his unit 2 wide as well to gain 2nd rank attacks. With demis it's really nice bc the guy on top has only 1 supporting attack.
This method bleeds far less combat res then having +3 for 3 ranks.
Plus with a command group, you can deploy like this and have your lvl 1 necro sit safely behind the muso/banner and never Make Way! in CC. Meanwhile he'll be casting ION and replenishing the unit. So he'll have to delete the unit before the character dies. And if it's looking ropey, he could potentially Make Way and and block off one models' attacks if you reformed first in a prior round and shifted to where all of 1 models attacks could only hit that spot. Or you'd only need to 2 ethereal models to Make Way and demis/MF can't touch you, and you're winning combat by 1 regardless of wounds bc your zombies have a banner (nobody runs banners on MC bc 1 dies if it flees).
You can all this away fromt he general as well... you can INITIALLY deploy 5 wide with a couple characters in it. Then when whatever big is barreling down at you, you can then reform into a line... so long as no model moves double it's modement allowance (8 inches for zombies), you can reform freely as it isn't a swift reform. Test for it anyway, chances are that you fail, but etheral LD is 5, and a lvl 1 is 7... so no harm trying. Usually opponents are thrown off by this, bc now he doesn't want to charge you, and in fact, you may charge him now!!
There's more... but that's a good start at how you should be thinking when deploying zombies
When Demis, MF or Skull crushers are on the table, I run my zombies 2 wide, however many deep.
With 2 zombies creating a 40mm frontage, only 2 50mm models can attack on the charge. Only by a combat reform can my opponent rank up his unit 2 wide as well to gain 2nd rank attacks. With demis it's really nice bc the guy on top has only 1 supporting attack.
This method bleeds far less combat res then having +3 for 3 ranks.
Plus with a command group, you can deploy like this and have your lvl 1 necro sit safely behind the muso/banner and never Make Way! in CC. Meanwhile he'll be casting ION and replenishing the unit. So he'll have to delete the unit before the character dies. And if it's looking ropey, he could potentially Make Way and and block off one models' attacks if you reformed first in a prior round and shifted to where all of 1 models attacks could only hit that spot. Or you'd only need to 2 ethereal models to Make Way and demis/MF can't touch you, and you're winning combat by 1 regardless of wounds bc your zombies have a banner (nobody runs banners on MC bc 1 dies if it flees).
You can all this away fromt he general as well... you can INITIALLY deploy 5 wide with a couple characters in it. Then when whatever big is barreling down at you, you can then reform into a line... so long as no model moves double it's modement allowance (8 inches for zombies), you can reform freely as it isn't a swift reform. Test for it anyway, chances are that you fail, but etheral LD is 5, and a lvl 1 is 7... so no harm trying. Usually opponents are thrown off by this, bc now he doesn't want to charge you, and in fact, you may charge him now!!
There's more... but that's a good start at how you should be thinking when deploying zombies
I normally start my zombies in a 5 wide bus formation, but if I get a few rounds of growing before combat I will normally redeploy them to a wider frontage (although never got to horde size). I do this as normally I am trying to deny the enemy a section of the battlefield for a turn (or more hopfully) whilst I concentrate my killing forces elsewhere. Thought I try not to reply on zombies to succeed, they usually serve me well enough.
I tried a unit of 30 deployed diagonally in a single rank. Shuffled them up the board. Didn't go well. Will never do it again although, the look on my opponents face was golden. Especially when he charged with bloodcrushers and I hit his flank with blood knights.