ZP- Army List General Discussion

[Ghostmaker]

I have changed the title of this thread. It is now for general army discussion only, e.g. army wide special rules. If you have a unit suggestion, but do not know what category to post it in, PM me and I will direct you.
LoR

Sorry if I’m being a bit impetuous, but I’m just excited about getting started!

Below is a very quickly sketched Army-list for Zombie Pirates that I made just now. It has what I feel to be important parts of the feel to the army (zombies, pirates, sea monsters, mariners’ tales) and some other stuff. I feel like I’m borrowing too much from the VC book and maybe too little from the old official Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast…

What I thought about when making this was that, because of the fluff, this list has to be fast! Pirates strike without warning, furiously hacking at the enemy, then suddenly are gone (either ‘cus they got the booty or ‘cus they were losing). So we need to really figure out how to make a fast Zombie list…
But on with it! Start discussing! Anything it needs, or needs less of? Scrap the whole thing?

Zombie Pirate Armylist

Special Rules:
Undead - As in the VC armybook

Creatures of the Sea - Move through water terrain as if were open terrain. +1 for Invocation of Nehek when within such water-based terrain. Non flyers only.

Close to the salt – After regular terrain is place, Zomby Pirate player places one water-based terrain-piece.

Lords:
Vampire Admiral - Your regular Vampire Lord with a few tweaks perhaps. Maybe he's capable of ordering volleys from his ship(s) out at sea...

Ancient Mariner - A mix of a Lord-level Wight King and Davy Jones. With 0W, but loses either 1S, 1T, 1A or 1WS for each wound he would have lost?

Heroes:
Vampire Captain – Much the same as VC vampire, but maybe with a Mutiny-rule? “If the general is in the same unit as a Vampire Captain and the unit loses a combat, the Vampire captain immediately attacks the general with all his attacks. If this kills the general, the Vampire Captain is now the army’s general.”

Weather Witch – The Necromancer with something else perhaps… Teleporting Creatures of the Sea between water-based terrains? Lore of Storms?

Core:
Dead-hands – (Pun on deck-hands) Regular zombies more-or-less

Oarsmen – Zombies with spears!

Cursed Crewmen – The skeleton crewmen. Cannot take spears any longer, but can instead take 2 Hand-Weapons or pistols.

Wreaks – The Crops-carts except they’re ships that float inland. Capable of transporting infantry, maybe with Movement determined by number of Units abord. Ethereal movement only perhaps...

Special:
Longshoremen – I’m thinking a mix of Grave Guards and Zombies!

Pirates of Old – Somewhat ‘Elite’ combat infantry. Strong offense, weak defense. Bonuses for capturing Banners (Booty!)?

Albatross – Flyer with some sort of area effect. “All enemy units within 6’’ lose -1 Ld” or "all units within 6'' must re-roll all succsesful to-hit rolls in both the Shooting-phase and the Combat-phase" or similar.

Rear:
Kraken – The big tentacle monster! Very powerful, but has to stay within x’’ of general or it will revert to beastly random behavior.

The Flying Tilean – Black Coach, kinda. Only it is a flying ship. Maybe Ethereal. Can transport infantry.

Ship’s batteries – Guns! Artillery! I can taste the shooting-phase lads! Crewed by zombies, though… Maybe magical attacks…

From the Abyss – 0-1. A unit from any ‘living’ race’s book. It is Undead and a Creature of the Sea, in addition to anything else. Borrowed unit takes up its own army-list slot in addition to a rear-slot.

 

[Keldane]

RE: ZP - Army-list

Personally, I'm inclined to lean away from traditional Vampire Counts elements, which, to me, means no Vampire characters and no Skeletons. You know, place the emphasis heavily on the zombies.

I'd rather have them have to carry something into battle with them (say, the Ship's Bell?) that acts as the source of their sustenance, and allows a certain degree of regeneration every turn (Bound Spell, Power Level 7, restores 2d6 wounds across the entire army. No model may gain more than a single wound per turn in this way, and units may not be increased past their starting number).

As far as combat efficiency, perhaps some champion with effects that extend to their entire unit? A small list of options that add, say, +2 I, or +2 WS, etc.

I like the idea of the Ancient Mariner, and I suspect it would take some playtesting to see if that idea was too potent or too fragile. I also imagine that equipment options would play a role in this.

If I may, I'd like to take a crack at designing a fitting Lore for the army. It would essentially be mixing and matching spell effects from other lores, with some tweaks to get them to fit in at different casting values, and I'm fairly confident I can achieve something balanced.

As an alternative to traditional magic, perhaps Figureheads, bought and carried like magic banners, that have certain bound effects? With this system, perhaps there could be a "basic" figurehead that, like dispel scrolls or power stones, could be bought in any number across the army (limited to one per unit, probably) that confers Magic Resistance 1 or 2 to the entire unit, in place of traditional dispelling?

I also like the idea of Wrecks, though I'm inclined to make some changes to distinguish them from Corpse Carts:
- Ethereal Movement
- Increase range of Miasma from 6" to 8"
- (definitely uncertain on this one) Make Miasma's activation compulsory at the start of the magic phase, before any other spells.
- Unit moves on its own 3d3" per turn in a random direction. If this would carry it into impassible terrain, it stops short or goes all the way through, whichever is shorter. If it would end its movement in a friendly unit, it stops short or goes all the way through, whichever is shorter. If it would end its movement in an enemy unit, it instead moves into contact with them, and counts as charging. As this is compulsory movement, it takes place after charges are declared but before charges are moved, which means it may force a failed charge when it moves between an allied unit and the enemy they were intending to charge.
- Cost and upgrade options will likely have to be rethought, if this version is to be used.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

RE: ZP - Army-list

I think the army should lean away from raising loads with magic, maybe more bounds and items like the one Keldane mentioned

Also zombie handgunners (that can misfire)

 

[uga bug]

RE: ZP - Army-list

Personally, I'm inclined to lean away from traditional Vampire Counts elements, which, to me, means no Vampire characters and no Skeletons. You know, place the emphasis heavily on the zombies.

But without a vampire, or some other magic character, how would the zombies have risen in the first place? The list has got to have some form of vampire/strong necromancer(or equivilent) to make the whole zombie idea work.

Also whats the Sartosan Vamprie if not pirate vampire?!

I agree with the no skeletons though-it is a zombie list afterall, although possibly allowing a unit of skeletons as a special or rare choice-showing that they arent common in a zombie army!

I'm not sure about the idea of handguns either-after being at the bottom of the sea, would any blackpowder have survived? and would the rusted mechanics of a handgun still work?

 

[Sanai]

RE: ZP - Army-list

They would work because the same dark magic that animates the zombies animates the handguns.

 

[Ghostmaker]

RE: ZP - Army-list

They would work because the same dark magic that animates the zombies animates the handguns.

Ah, the Ork aproach^^ "It works because it works!"
But that could work, though I am also a bit sceptical to handgunners. I think some Cannons (NOT great cannons) are suficient for ranged. This is a Zombie Pirate list and neither Zombies nor Pirates are inclined towards range (other than pirates' cannons).

I think the vampires have to stay. It’s called the Vampire Coast for a reason ;P But I’m all for them taking a back seat. That’s why I didn’t include any non-character Vampires in the list and made non-vampire options in the Character section. That way, you can make a complete army without fielding Vampires.

And yeah, maybe move the Cursed Crewmen to special, since this IS a zombie list.

As far as magic goes, I think that should be taken in a different thread since this is about the Army-list. I’m thinking we make a Lore of Storms that has some Raising, but that raising is focused on keeping units alive, not making them bigger or making new units.

On the Wreaks, maybe scrap Miasma and instead have a bound-spell that allows it to March-move without a Vampire or General in range. That way, they can work like the fast transports they were intended to be. And instead of being classified as Monsters, they should be chariots with Impact-hits as normal. Maybe a special rule that allows the embarked unit to disembark as the Wreak charges and join the combat as well.

Another cool idea would be if Zombie units had the choice of three-four different Unit Champions that each gives the whole unit a bonus in one stat. This boost only lasts while the Champion is alive, though.
-Mariner 8pts: +2I
-Buccaneer 8pts: +2WS
-Reaver 8pts: +1A
-Navigator 8pts: +2M

 

[Sanai]

RE: ZP - Army-list

I like the idea of the units disembarking when the wreck hits a unit.

 

[uga bug]

RE: ZP - Army-list

On the Wreaks, maybe scrap Miasma and instead have a bound-spell that allows it to March-move without a Vampire or General in range. That way, they can work like the fast transports they were intended to be. And instead of being classified as Monsters, they should be chariots with Impact-hits as normal. Maybe a special rule that allows the embarked unit to disembark as the Wreak charges and join the combat as well.

The idea of a floating ship/boat thing in an army that isnt heavily reliant on magic seems a little odd to me-unless the wreck was ethereal and a ghost ship. I think the idea that the wreck enhances movement of nearby unit is great. I'm not sure what i think of the wreck transporting units-I think a lot of thought would have to go into how exactly it would work, maybe the wreck should be some form of cavalry rather than transporting units.
I think its just the whole transporting idea I'm not too sure about.

 

[Sanai]

RE: ZP - Army-list

Think of the wreck like one of those rowboats that they use to transport people from ship to shore, except its magical and ghostly and killy and full of zombies and keeps going after reachign the beach.

 

[uga bug]

RE: ZP - Army-list

Maybe the background for the list needs to be expanded a bit here.
Currently it seems the zombie pirate list has no real direction to it- its not like the force has got a relentless feel to it, or a fast but fragile one. My point is i think we need to discuss the background a little more to enable us to concentrate our ideas more. Currently theres a lot of talk about ethereal ships, alongside that of zombies- but where is it all headed? Witrhout a clear background of the zombie pirates at war i dont think we're going to get very far with all our crazy ideas!

...not that all ideas are crazy

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: ZP - Army-list

Just a note:

Please follow LoR's direction in this project. He has request that discussions are broken down into the other threads.

 

[Ghostmaker]

RE: ZP - Army-list

I know, just though we needed a thread where we could discuss overall stuff, which category units belongs in and a place where we can gathere what we decide upon in the separate threads. I'll update the First post after we really decide upon something.

 

[Onikaigo]

Another cool idea would be if Zombie units had the choice of three-four different Unit Champions that each gives the whole unit a bonus in one stat. This boost only lasts while the Champion is alive, though.
-Mariner 8pts: +2I
-Buccaneer 8pts: +2WS
-Reaver 8pts: +1A
-Navigator 8pts: +2M

Very nice. This would allow some great variation in our core units, encouraging people to take more of them rather than spam 'Better' special/Rare choices. And it'd be fluffy, as he'd be inspirational to the pirate troops, and of course it'd give you a chance to name your pirates.

Arr, that's one Eye Billy! Cuz he can't see so well, he flails madly with two cutlasses, and his chosen crew jus' do the same 'e does! Arrr!

This would also greatly simplify our special choices, as our core would be variable enough to handle itself.

 

[uga bug]

Very nice. This would allow some great variation in our core units, encouraging people to take more of them rather than spam 'Better' special/Rare choices.

It is a good idea but for a whole unit to gain those advantages for just 8pts?! That'd certainly have to be looked at!
But would it be adding too much variability to the core choices? Maybe a zombie unit with one of the traits should be moved to special? -otherwise the whole army will be incredibly variable and complicated.

We like simple units!..or i'd liek a few at least!-no special rules, just a plain unit with a few weapon upgrades. nothing fancy.

 

[Keldane]

As I see it, the variable types of champion would be the few options available to the rank and file zombie pirates, instead of weapon choices. Or perhaps, specific champions should also come with specific weapon options?

Mariner: +2I, Spears + Hand Weapons
Buccaneer: +2WS, Hand Weapons + Shields (Bucklers)
Reaver: +1A, Flails
Navigator: +2M, Halberds?

 

[Onikaigo]

Of course not for 8 points! But remember, we're talking about Zombies here. Crappy stats and all.

I could definitely see Keldane's option coming to light. For the price of a 'Character' kinda like the Regiments of Renown back in the Dogs of War days, you give the zombies a special weapon/Trait, but their stats stay otherwise the same.

I really, really like this idea. It would allow us to keep the core of the army very flexible, and allow for special choices to fill specific roles as they're intended.

I do suggest a limitation on these Champions though. Perhaps only 3 types could be chosen in a single army list, to prevent the rules from going way overboard? You pick 3 types, and are only allowed to 'Recruit' them, as the rest would be at work on different pirate ships somewhere.

And may I suggest this:
Gunners Mate: +1 BS

Zombies can't hit crap. So this way they hit better, but still (assumedly) shoot themselves on a 1.

 

[Lord of Ravens]

OK, I would like to suggest the first army wide special rule.

As many people do not like the idea of an Invocation-style spell to raise new Zombies, how about a Press Gang Special Rule. When a Zombie Unit (and only a Zombie Unit) wounds and enemy unit, it adds a new member to its own unit.

What do you think of this? It is only a suggestion.

 

[Keldane]

It might prove to be a little overpowering like that, depending on how well the zombies do in wounding the enemies (by which I assume you mean unsaved wounds). I like the idea, and pending some play testing, may I suggest that they gain one member per point they win combat by as an alternative, should your suggested method prove to be too beneficial to the shamblers?

Edit: Reverse crumbling, in a sense. When they lose combat, they lose models. When they win combat, they gain models. Seems kind of like the ebb and flow of the tides, which could somehow be tied into the name of the rule.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yeah Keldane's suggestion sounds better, as it doesn't make it too OP.

 

[Onikaigo]

Good form, Keldane. That sounds excellent.

Now, since they're undead and will undoubtedly cause fear, if and when we win combat we would A:

Gain models by the amount we won combat by up to or past the starting unit size? Could be break our original number this way?

If we autobreak from fear and make our opponent run except on 1'1's I'm assuming we don't get X extra zombies, instead of the two or three we were going to get? Ex: We win combat by 2, but we cause fear so do we get 2 zombies, or 2 Plus X, where X is the remaining LD value to get to Snake-eyes?

 

[Sanai]

I like Keldanes Idea. Means we can have no raisy spells in the army while still getting raisyness for the zombies.

 

[Keldane]

I like Keldanes Idea. Means we can have no raisy spells in the army while still getting raisyness for the zombies.

Which idea is that? The Bell idea I suggested near the beginning of the thread, or the variation of LoR's idea? Either way, I appreciate the recognition everyone's giving me, and I can't really take credit for the latter.

And yes, I realize I keep calling attention back to the Ship's Bell, and no one has really responded to it each time I suggested it. :tongue: Well, with the exception of Capt Ducky, to whom I tip my hat.

 

[Sanai]

I mean the raising zombies out of combat resolution idea.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

To clarify Keldane's idea and to answer Oni's, I think it should work thus (replace's the crumbling rule)

The Tide of Battle
Insert fluff
At the end of combat, calculate CR as normal.
If the enemy unit wins, for each point of CR they win by the Zombie Pirate unit suffers a wound, with no armour saves allowed.
If the Zombie Pirate unit wins, for each point of CR they win by they heal / raise one wound. Models raised in this fashion are equipped in exactly the same way as the rest of the unit. If any of the command group are dead, then they must be resurrected first. If they unit has multi-wound models, this can resurrect models with only partial wounds (i.e if the models has 3 wounds, a model can be resurrected with just one wound). However before resurrecting any new models, existing models in the unit must be fully healed. Zombie Pirate characters may be healed in this fashion, however vampires characters etc cannot.


How does that sound?

In regards to raising past the starting number I would make it simple - only core can raise past their starting size this way. Those type of units should be low powered so that shouldn't be an issue.

Now, are the ZP going to have the rule where Zombies can't overrun but inflict extra hits if they break a unit? If so you could state any extra wounds caused in this way count as healing as above. If you are going to allow pursuit, not sure on that.

 

[Onikaigo]

I'd not allow pursuit except on Special choices, personally. Core is just Zombies, and the thought of zombies chasing anything down is laughable. The sheer weight of S2 hits coming at them as they run would deal a few more wounds, plus the wounds gained from winning the combat through CR would mean a possible jump in unit size that could be big.

Then again, they're just zombies.

So, I second DoN's explanation of it, and say no pursuit allowed for Zombie units.