ZP- Magic

[Ghostmaker]

They all look good, though I think we need a VanHel's of some sort to make our Pirates as speedy as they need to be.

Also, I would scratch either Gale or Eerie Mist as both of these are kinda similar. That way we also have room for one more.

I was also thinking that perhaps divide the Lore in two. The first three spells are basic ones that all units can sing, and the strongest three must be sung by either Special or Rare units. Hopefully that prevents the spamming of the really powerful spells.

 

[Onikaigo]

Separating them by units is a good idea. We'd haveta decide which are the 'Strongest', though.

So let's replace Gale with something like:

'First to Board!'
Shanty affects only the unit itself. Add D6 inches to it's charge this turn.
Being the first aboard is every pirates dream. Cutlass bringing the foe to his knees, and the briny embrace 'O the sea.

I'm definitely seeing this one restricted to special choices only, or maybe even rares. As this spell, spammed, would be incredibly strong in most situations.

This is a Pseudo Van hels, as I really didn't wanna copy that spell.

 

[uga bug]

The spells are good, i'm in agreement with the similarity between gale and eerie mist. I'm not sure about one being replaced with a movement spell though-aren't the wrecks, in ZP-core, the movement aids?

 

[Onikaigo]

I haven't looked at the unit selections at all. I'm going based purely off of what I feel are fluffy spells for Zombie Pirates.

But, I made a suggested change for Gale at least.

 

[Ghostmaker]

Valid point, the Wreaks might be enough Movement aid for the army... Maybe have a full-blown Mother-of-All-Storms spell as the final?

Ryhme of the Witches' Weather - Special or Rare only
A gargantuan storm ravages the board. All flyers must move at their ground speed. All shooting is done at -1 to-hit. Non-standard shooting (not using BS) cannot be used at all. All units not within a piece of terrain takes d6 S2 hits designated as shooting. All effect lasts untill the beginning of your next magic-phase.
Just like bad luck followes the Undead like an albatross soaring as their shadow, so does savage storms trail their ships.

I also believe that all the spells should be named as songs, ryhmes, jigs, chanties or tunes in the same manner as i did this one to add to the feel.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think Ghostly Barrage is too weak. Use the ordnance / large blast template and that would be better.

 

[Onikaigo]

I don't think there should be a 'Mother of all Storms' spell, as the magic system we have in use doesn't really allow for it. Kind of like Tomb King incantations, these spells automatically go off unless they miscast, so having a -Guaranteed Cast- of such a spell is incredibly strong. I like the thought, but I'd hate to see any 2 DD opponent cry as you get automatic successes that he only has one real hope of stopping.

I think DoN is right, use large templates. It'll be fun!

This will give the Magic a more Relentless, thematic feel. They're coming, they're hard to shoot, they can charge a bit faster, and they've got a little something against magic missiles. Once they get to combat they're understandably crap(At least the core is so far), but they're leaning toward a more combined arms/slightly more ranged army.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I really like the idea of these shantys, and as for DD rather the 1 per every 2 musicians, how about something a bit more random, role a dice for every musician and on a 4+ you gain a DD. Also maybe musicians can't be used in the event of a tie in combat if used to gain a DD.

Edit: How are units going to be 'healed', should we have a shanty that does that.

 

[Ghostmaker]

There's the Press Gang Plauge Chant, which grants the unit a single extra wound for each wound they cause in combat, but I also think that might not be enough... We might need a Song of Nehek to get some propper Resurecting into the list.

 

[Onikaigo]

Why would we need 'Proper' resurrection? I'm somewhat against having this list play like Vampires.

They're pirates. They kill things. There aren't enough bodies under the waves (well, whol bodies..) to make for summoning zombies, nor are there any real reasons to need resurrections. We're using -zombies-, how many do you think we're going to field once we start the game? Do you really think we need more bodies?

Zombies in the current VC book are 4 points. A fear causing, combat weak thing. We add a pistol or somesuch for say, 2 points. BAM, we have a pirate zombie.

roughly 6 points a model. How many units can we field at 2K? Even with characters/Specials/Rares? A 20 man unit is only 120 points! And if they're dedicated range, they'd only be ten strong, and then they'd be 60!

My point is that we're going to have enough bodies, so why do we need the ability to consistently bring more? I stand on the basis that pirates recruit the Vampires might be out of touch with the winds of magic and not cast 'Spells' at all, so how would the invocation survive?

I don't want -another- Vampire army. This is zombies. My two cents on it at least.

 

[Lord of Ravens]

Everybody is making valid points so far, but I think we should sort out how the magic will work before we start discussing specific spells etc.

So, what I understand we have agreed upon so far is;

The Magic will be cast by Shanty Singers (see Character discussion thread).

They will channel the power through a Zombie Unit. A dice will be rolled to determine the power level.

The Caster can cast multiple shantys, buteach Unit can only sing once per turn.

Musicians will play some part in dispelling enemy spells (I still think 1 DD per musician).

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think 1DD per musician could be used too much. Someone could have lots of min size units and have a horde of DD

On the note of shanties, can this be our theme tune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AzpByR3MvI

 

[Lord of Ravens]

That was disturbing...

If we make the minimum unit size for Zombie Pirates 20, this would prevent people taking lots of small units.

 

[uga bug]

If we make the minimum unit size for Zombie Pirates 20, this would prevent people taking lots of small units.

That or have it so only certain unit types with musicians generate DD...or a unit has to have a certain unit strength size before the musician generates DD.

 

[Onikaigo]

Would that also mean, by default, that whittling down a unit to less than X models would deny them dispel dice? That'd make it interesting.

I've been thinking about the magic system, and pondering how to not make it seem so overwhelming, or some small changes to the miscast table; as for the moment it seems like it has no downside. What I'd need to add into the miscast table is a 'Magic Phase Ends' result, because otherwise the shanties seem a little unstoppable.

The dispel dice should still be limited in any case. 2 base +:

1 per Musician in units of X size or larger
or
1 Per Musician in certain types of units
or
1 per every 2 musicians, regardless of unit size.

 

[Lord of Ravens]

I think 1 per Musician;

In certain types of units that START the battle over unit strength X.

 

[Onikaigo]

I think our opponent should have some sort of option to hamper our anti magic/Magic ability. Otherwise, we'd be the only army with the unshakable magic defense, and that doesn't sound fun to me.

2 base + 1 per unit size X or larger at the beginning of the battle.

Given normal Zombie costs, we could field 6 + units of 20 or greater, so we're looking at 8-10 DD. That's a pretty strong anti magic phase.

I propose that if the unit falls below 1/2 strength, they lose their dispel dice, but can still shanty. Otherwise, most magic phases would be shut down pretty effectively. Who else can generate 10 dispel dice, and not have to worry about wizards getting assassinated?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think DD should be calculated every phase, by looking at the unit strength. Basically when the list is drawn up, you then choose which units can use the sea shanty / DD, and then choose what unit strength they must be to generate DD. So some abbreviation such as DDSG (dispel dice size generation):

Zombie Deck Hands
DDSG: 20

Fishmen
DDSG: 10

Siren
DDSG:1

They are just examples. But it would be very interesting. Like the CR healing rule discussed in the other thread, this would mean the tide of battle can flow and ebb. A good combat phase with units healed up would mean for a more potent magic phase, a bad one could spell doom. Unpredictable just like zombies should be, but lots of fun.

 

[Lord of Ravens]

I think DD should be calculated every phase, by looking at the unit strength. Basically when the list is drawn up, you then choose which units can use the sea shanty / DD, and then choose what unit strength they must be to generate DD. So some abbreviation such as DDSG (dispel dice size generation):

Zombie Deck Hands
DDSG: 20

Fishmen
DDSG: 10

Siren
DDSG:1

They are just examples. But it would be very interesting. Like the CR healing rule discussed in the other thread, this would mean the tide of battle can flow and ebb. A good combat phase with units healed up would mean for a more potent magic phase, a bad one could spell doom. Unpredictable just like zombies should be, but lots of fun.

Yes i think this is how it should work. It makes things a little more wacky.

EDIT. Or, we could have something totaly different. Thi would be an alternative to this plan. Sorry to keep suggesting new things...

Instead of this, units could by figure heads as their standard. This would confer magic resitance (1) onto the unit.

Musicians could then add +1 to cast shantys instead. Like I said, this is just another theory.

 

[uga bug]

Instead of this, units could by figure heads as their standard. This would confer magic resitance (1) onto the unit.

I did have this exact same thought!..or near enough- That musicians should grant a unit magic resistance! I then realised very soon after having this thought that the army would be way over powered against magic again-with every zombie unit having magic resistance, few offensive spells would ever stand a chance.

 

[Keldane]

I happen to think that Magic Resistance 1 may not be overpowered. Yes, it means they have a chance to dispel any spell cast on a 6 or less, and it means that they can only do so against spells that affect that specific unit. It's far more selfish than each musician generating a dispel die, and it means that they only have two shots per turn at stopping spells cast on 7-11. It also means they only get to use their base dispel dice against any spell that doesn't specifically affect them - Steed of Shadows, Pelt of Midnight, Shades of Death, Unseen Lurker, The Oxen Stands, The Wolf Hunts, etc.

 

[Lord of Ravens]

OK, a summary,


The Magic will be cast by Shanty Singers (see Character discussion thread).

They will channel the power through a Zombie Unit. A dice will be rolled to determine the power level.

The Caster can cast multiple shantys, but each Unit can only sing once per turn.

Instead of each musician generating a dispell dice, the musician (or standard bearer, yet to be decided) will confer magic resistance (1).

 

[Ghostmaker]

Are we really going for Magic resistance... I'm not sold on that idea.

Firstly, as Keldane said in his post, the MR1 only protects against things DIRECTLY affecting the unit (such as magic missiles and such). All other spells can get through pretty easily since you only have the two base Dispel Dice to use against them. If fighting Vampire Counts, the Pirates can't do anything against Invocations, Raise Deads or Dances, for instance.

Secondly, the Zombie Pirates won't have the ability to dispell the big spells. We'll be using a maximum of 3 dice to dispell the biggest spells the opponent vill be using 4-5 Power dice to cast. I'd like at least a decent shot at shooting that down...

All in all, I don't think the Magic Resistance is flexible enough. I'm all for the unit-size determining if the Musician (or Standard bearer) generates a Dispel dice, though.

 

[Onikaigo]

Agreed with Ghostmaker, except I still want to make each Musician generate 1/2. Perhaps rounded up, but we're going to have a LOT of units the way I'm seeing things. And the more units = a whole lot of Dispel dice= cruhed magic phases for the beginning of the game, at least until combats start going south for the Pirates.



I have to admit that it -could- work out beneficially though. Have all those dispel dice, then start getting eaten alive in Combats and lose about half....It'd make pirates really reliant on the momentum of their army. If they do well from the start, they will probably keep doing well. IF they start getting crushed, they lose strength from different aspects of the game.

But I'm still not sold on it. =/

 

[Lord of Ravens]

If this is going tobe too complicated, perhaps the Shanty singers should generate DD in the usual way?