The Intro
This is a living (or unliving) blog. Before you dig any deeper, please see the article I wrote about VC/TK interactions here. It's the same article that's up on BoLS, but it's imperative that you read this first so you know what I'm talking about.
In this thread, you'll see me post and bump around ideas that I will have on making a competitive, 2500 uncomped list. I would like this thread to have a lot of good ideas, so I'll start off by making a competitive "unit bucket" for both armies. The idea of the bucket is to separate the good, the bad, and the situational, so we can start making competitive lists.
Alright, let's begin. I'll start off with my VC list because I have the most experience with them (I got into them when they got their new 7th Ed. book). My playstyle has always been a killy armored Vampire Lord because that's how I envision myself if I was to personally take command of the army. It just sings well with me.
For now, I'll skip the Special Characters and all the Nagash Vol. 2 units. I want to concentrate on the original army books.
Vampire Counts Unit Bucket:
Vampire Lord, Master Necromancer, Necromancer, Vampire, Wight King, Tomb Banshee, Zombies, Skeleton Warriors, Crypt Ghouls, Dire Wolves, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, Fell Bats, Spirit Host, Bat Swarms, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine
Tomb Kings Unit Bucket:
Tomb King, Liche High Priest, Tomb Prince, Liche Priest, Necrotect, Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horsemen, Skeleton Horse Archers, Skeleton Chariots, Necropolis Knights, Ushabti, Khemrian Warsphinx, Sepulchral Stalkers, Hierotitan, Necrosphinx, Screaming Skull Catapult, Casket of Souls
Preliminary Observations
I don't think Skeleton Horseman and Archers are worth it because of the price range. Skeleton Horse Archers maybe because of the Fast Cav, but I'm not sure if I like the price on Horseman vs. just having Dire Wolves for chaff purposes. Our Skeleton Warriors are better than the TK book, Ghouls are excellent forms of core choices as are the Skeleton Archers. The good thing here is that they fulfill very different roles and thus, do not compete for choices. Skeleton Chariots are up in the air because while they can be good, I think with Archers, Dire Wolves and Ghouls they will be hard-pressed for a slot. That is, unless you want a take an all-moving list with perhaps a Tomb Prince or King in tow.
The next big observation is that VC stands out in two unique ways from TK, and that's via the Ethereal units, and with the scream mechanics. For TK, it has to be shooting, and Undead constructs for me. This is why you see me listing out a lot of the competitive options from the TK book that you normally wouldn't see by itself. I'm talking about the Necero Knights, Ushbati, and Sepulchral Stalkers especially. These guys were subpar until all of a sudden, you can take 2x Mortis Engines and a Necrotect in the same list with them. All of a sudden, 4+ Regen is very, very scary for a lot of people who thought they can just shoot them to death. VC also provides the UL with 2+ armor via the Black Knights, and as we all know by now, that's our main mode of transportation for the Blenderlord if we a well-placed hammer blow.
From a lords/heroes perspective, the Vampire Lord remains the strongest melee component that we have. Tomb Kings and Princes are more unit buffers more than anything, until you fit the Golden Death Mask and then their role changes (only the King, and only mounted on a Chariot I feel). More on this later. Master Necros and High Liche Priests are always good, especially since we have such diverse magic coverage now. For example, you have access to Death, Shadow, Lore of Vampires, and Light, Death and Lore of Nehekhara. This is great, but you have to also consider the fact that you can't mix and match magic items. The VC magic items just destroy TK in terms of competitive selection, and I think that outside of Light and LoN, there won't be much that the TK casters will offer us, simply because the best item there forces through an IF. That might be a game changer with Purple Sun, but we'll see. In terms of BSB, VC dominate the arena with Vampiric powers and the beefy WK, but also because of magical items like the Nightshroud.
Last, but certainly not least, we just gained an ass ton of monsters that we can bring in our lists. That's the only thing that can be said right now because there is a significant price-tag that comes with it.
Exploring Different Archetypes
Before we look too deeply into how we can expand on the archetypes, we need to explore what the existing archetypes are for the armies. In VC, because we have a more flexible book, we have a ton of different archetypes to explore. To give you an idea, here are a couple of things: Walking Blenderlord with an infantry heavy army, Blenderbus with fast moving options, magic-heavy double Necro lists with Regen engines Crypt Horror meatwalls, magic-heavy double Necro with infantry armies, magic-heavy scream machines with Terrors/Banshees, Blenderbus 2x Terrorgheist, and any combination of these.
When you look at TK, you have either your balanced playstyle of some shooting, some combat, and a block of Tomb Guard, or you have flat out all shooty lists with minimal combat. Monster-heavy was something that people experimented with in the beginning, but with the changes that everything can wound anything, this quickly went out the window because a lot of people hated spending a lot of points for minimal protection. Even with the Lore of Nehekhara's awesome healing aura, this was not enough to keep the expensive constructs up.
OK, so now that the boring stuff is over, let's talk about how we can combine the strategic flexibility of the VC book with the TK book. Just to let you guys know before hand, I see the TK book as a support book to our more powerful VC book. This is quite apparent when you look at the units and uses of the units. Things like the Tomb Prince for a WS buff, Necrotect for Regen + Hatred buff, Archers/SSCs for shooting solutions, Casket for magic buff, Hierophant for magic buff, all of these things are buffs at the end of the day. The only combat elements (close combat) that the TK book has to offer us is when you can combine Regen from the Necrotect, with the Regen aura that our Mortis Engines can provide.
With that said, here is the first and most apparent archetype of the combined books..
The Regen Undead Construct Engines of Doom
No, I'm not really calling it that, but the pieces of the puzzle should be pretty self-explanatory. The first thing you'll notice here is the vast amount of points needed to sustain this combo. Not to crap on anyone's parade, but the first thing I need to call out is the vulnerability to flaming, and the fact that Dwarf Cannons with RoBurning and Skull Cannons of Khorne will make your life really miserable. Sure, there will healing, sure, there will be shooting, but you need to keep in mind that laser cannons with flaming shots makes large things with Regen very unhappy.
Here is what you will need:
Necotect in a zombie bunker - The dude that gives as 12" bubble of 6+ Regen to all Undead Constructs. He needs to survive, he needs to be protected, and you might as well put a MR3 Black Peripat Master Necro with him in that bunker to give him added magic sniping protection.
Mortis Engines - These are your Regen engines because they stack with each other and give the rest of army bonuses to Regen. If you have 2x Mortis Engines and the Necrotect, you will see 4+ Regen on all of your constructs as long as they're within range of the engines.
Any Undead Constructs that you can think of - Necropolis Knights, Ushabti, Khemrian Warsphinx, Sepulchral Stalkers, Hierotitan, Necrosphinx. Choose some of these guys that you want in your list and go to town. Even with a sole Mortis Engine and some decent healing, you will greatly increase the lifespan (lol) of these units.
The shooting that never existed in VC
OK, so here's what you do here. You take all the cool shooting components from the TK army and then supplement your existing VC army with it.
What you do:
Gut your entire core and replace them with Skeleton Archers. How you want to take them completely depends on what you want. A big unit does a lot of damage, you don't need a musician because you always hit on 5s no matter what you do. I would probably roll with units of 10-15, or bigger units of 20-30, I would take at least 2 units of these. You want to maintain your deployment advantage with Vanguarding Dire Wolf chaff, so make sure you have save 160 points for 4x units of 5. The rest can either be all shooty, or if you want, take a unit of Ghouls and have some combat in there.
Next, you take 2x Screaming Skull Catapults and keep them cheap, the 90 point variant is fine. Then, you add a Casket of Souls because it's the most awesome thing in the world and gives you a pseudo-shooting solution that can buff your magic as well.
This will allow you to keep the rest of your army how you want. From here, you either branch into an counter-punch style Blenderlord bus, or you can play a beefy counter-punch Regen style block, or you can play a bunch of fighting infantry like a Tomb Prince in Grave Guard with Banner of Barrows block. Basically, at this point you can pretty much freestyle because you just reprimed your core for archer-based chaff removal, kept your own chaff superiority, and added a cheap firing solution in the form of 2x SSCs, which can potentially remove large monsters from the field, like Chimeras. The first time you hit a Regen WoC Chimera with this thing, he will be pissed that you now have this option. Infantry blocks from other armies will also be shocked by the fact you can now rain terror onto his face.
Another cool addition would the Lv.4 High Liche Priest taking LoN. This gives you a greater chance to get Incantation of Righteous Smiting, and possibly allow your big archer units shoot a lot more. Just something to keep in mind.
Terror Bombing you into the ground
OK, this one is a little more gimmicky as you guys know, but the idea here is to deliver a Tomb King with Golden Mask into the enemy lines along side your Vampire Lord's knight bus. Personally, I think this is the best way to deliver this kind of combo because....
1. It's effective, not because of the fear-bomb, but because Golden Deathmask is amazing as an item overall.
2. When it does fear-bomb, it's hilarious because it makes your army godly.
3. Blenderbus + Chariots is the key: It allows you to dictate where the combo is delivered and with all the speed and precision to do it.
4. You might as well bring Terrorgheists because if you're taking this combo, you're not out to make friends anyway.
So here's what you need:
-To be able to play 50% Lords.
-Golden Deathmask on a Tomb King (because it was deemed unfun for it to be on a Tomb Prince), on a chariot, with some more chariots from core.
-You need a Blenderlord in a Black Knight bus, with LoV because you need to be able to heal stuff and move the fast-movers with VDM.
-You need 2x Terrorgheists because they move fast, and combos insanely well with the combo you're going to produce.
-No matter what, you will need the Golden Deathmask, Screaming Banner (on knightbus), Fear Incarnate (on Red Fury, Quickblood Lord), Aura of Dark Majesty (on supporting Vampire BSB). You might as well go Supernatural Terror too while you're at it.
The Splash of TK
This one is pretty self-explanatory. Here, you just take the bare essentials from TK and add it to your army. I'm talking about just adding the Casket or something else, because you want the rest of your army to be VC for some reason.
Biggest additions to the VC army:
Casket of Souls
Liche Priest with Incantation of the Desert Wind
Necotect, for Hatred on Ghouls
Skeleton Archers
Screaming Skull Catapults
The Army Lists
This army likes to sit back and shoot to weaken the enemy force, and then counter-charge with a Blenderbus, Terrorgheist and 6x6 Ghoul block to do the damage. The shooting elements consist of the 2x SSC, Casket of Souls and 2x Archer units. Ethereal Spirit Hosts are a must so you can have extra shooting with the SSC.
This list requires 50% lords or else it's not really possible. Everything here moves really quickly and does a lot of damage for the most part. The idea is to get the TK's Deathmask and the Vampire's Aura of Dark Majesty in around the same location and just go to town with all the Terror effects. The Terrorgheists should be able to scream dead anything in the vicinity, doing 5 wounds on average rolls each vs. Ld.9 while in range of Aura of Dark Majesty.
This is a living (or unliving) blog. Before you dig any deeper, please see the article I wrote about VC/TK interactions here. It's the same article that's up on BoLS, but it's imperative that you read this first so you know what I'm talking about.
In this thread, you'll see me post and bump around ideas that I will have on making a competitive, 2500 uncomped list. I would like this thread to have a lot of good ideas, so I'll start off by making a competitive "unit bucket" for both armies. The idea of the bucket is to separate the good, the bad, and the situational, so we can start making competitive lists.
Alright, let's begin. I'll start off with my VC list because I have the most experience with them (I got into them when they got their new 7th Ed. book). My playstyle has always been a killy armored Vampire Lord because that's how I envision myself if I was to personally take command of the army. It just sings well with me.
For now, I'll skip the Special Characters and all the Nagash Vol. 2 units. I want to concentrate on the original army books.
Vampire Counts Unit Bucket:
Vampire Lord, Master Necromancer, Necromancer, Vampire, Wight King, Tomb Banshee, Zombies, Skeleton Warriors, Crypt Ghouls, Dire Wolves, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, Fell Bats, Spirit Host, Bat Swarms, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine
Tomb Kings Unit Bucket:
Tomb King, Liche High Priest, Tomb Prince, Liche Priest, Necrotect, Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horsemen, Skeleton Horse Archers, Skeleton Chariots, Necropolis Knights, Ushabti, Khemrian Warsphinx, Sepulchral Stalkers, Hierotitan, Necrosphinx, Screaming Skull Catapult, Casket of Souls
Preliminary Observations
I don't think Skeleton Horseman and Archers are worth it because of the price range. Skeleton Horse Archers maybe because of the Fast Cav, but I'm not sure if I like the price on Horseman vs. just having Dire Wolves for chaff purposes. Our Skeleton Warriors are better than the TK book, Ghouls are excellent forms of core choices as are the Skeleton Archers. The good thing here is that they fulfill very different roles and thus, do not compete for choices. Skeleton Chariots are up in the air because while they can be good, I think with Archers, Dire Wolves and Ghouls they will be hard-pressed for a slot. That is, unless you want a take an all-moving list with perhaps a Tomb Prince or King in tow.
The next big observation is that VC stands out in two unique ways from TK, and that's via the Ethereal units, and with the scream mechanics. For TK, it has to be shooting, and Undead constructs for me. This is why you see me listing out a lot of the competitive options from the TK book that you normally wouldn't see by itself. I'm talking about the Necero Knights, Ushbati, and Sepulchral Stalkers especially. These guys were subpar until all of a sudden, you can take 2x Mortis Engines and a Necrotect in the same list with them. All of a sudden, 4+ Regen is very, very scary for a lot of people who thought they can just shoot them to death. VC also provides the UL with 2+ armor via the Black Knights, and as we all know by now, that's our main mode of transportation for the Blenderlord if we a well-placed hammer blow.
From a lords/heroes perspective, the Vampire Lord remains the strongest melee component that we have. Tomb Kings and Princes are more unit buffers more than anything, until you fit the Golden Death Mask and then their role changes (only the King, and only mounted on a Chariot I feel). More on this later. Master Necros and High Liche Priests are always good, especially since we have such diverse magic coverage now. For example, you have access to Death, Shadow, Lore of Vampires, and Light, Death and Lore of Nehekhara. This is great, but you have to also consider the fact that you can't mix and match magic items. The VC magic items just destroy TK in terms of competitive selection, and I think that outside of Light and LoN, there won't be much that the TK casters will offer us, simply because the best item there forces through an IF. That might be a game changer with Purple Sun, but we'll see. In terms of BSB, VC dominate the arena with Vampiric powers and the beefy WK, but also because of magical items like the Nightshroud.
Last, but certainly not least, we just gained an ass ton of monsters that we can bring in our lists. That's the only thing that can be said right now because there is a significant price-tag that comes with it.
Exploring Different Archetypes
Before we look too deeply into how we can expand on the archetypes, we need to explore what the existing archetypes are for the armies. In VC, because we have a more flexible book, we have a ton of different archetypes to explore. To give you an idea, here are a couple of things: Walking Blenderlord with an infantry heavy army, Blenderbus with fast moving options, magic-heavy double Necro lists with Regen engines Crypt Horror meatwalls, magic-heavy double Necro with infantry armies, magic-heavy scream machines with Terrors/Banshees, Blenderbus 2x Terrorgheist, and any combination of these.
When you look at TK, you have either your balanced playstyle of some shooting, some combat, and a block of Tomb Guard, or you have flat out all shooty lists with minimal combat. Monster-heavy was something that people experimented with in the beginning, but with the changes that everything can wound anything, this quickly went out the window because a lot of people hated spending a lot of points for minimal protection. Even with the Lore of Nehekhara's awesome healing aura, this was not enough to keep the expensive constructs up.
OK, so now that the boring stuff is over, let's talk about how we can combine the strategic flexibility of the VC book with the TK book. Just to let you guys know before hand, I see the TK book as a support book to our more powerful VC book. This is quite apparent when you look at the units and uses of the units. Things like the Tomb Prince for a WS buff, Necrotect for Regen + Hatred buff, Archers/SSCs for shooting solutions, Casket for magic buff, Hierophant for magic buff, all of these things are buffs at the end of the day. The only combat elements (close combat) that the TK book has to offer us is when you can combine Regen from the Necrotect, with the Regen aura that our Mortis Engines can provide.
With that said, here is the first and most apparent archetype of the combined books..
The Regen Undead Construct Engines of Doom
No, I'm not really calling it that, but the pieces of the puzzle should be pretty self-explanatory. The first thing you'll notice here is the vast amount of points needed to sustain this combo. Not to crap on anyone's parade, but the first thing I need to call out is the vulnerability to flaming, and the fact that Dwarf Cannons with RoBurning and Skull Cannons of Khorne will make your life really miserable. Sure, there will healing, sure, there will be shooting, but you need to keep in mind that laser cannons with flaming shots makes large things with Regen very unhappy.
Here is what you will need:
Necotect in a zombie bunker - The dude that gives as 12" bubble of 6+ Regen to all Undead Constructs. He needs to survive, he needs to be protected, and you might as well put a MR3 Black Peripat Master Necro with him in that bunker to give him added magic sniping protection.
Mortis Engines - These are your Regen engines because they stack with each other and give the rest of army bonuses to Regen. If you have 2x Mortis Engines and the Necrotect, you will see 4+ Regen on all of your constructs as long as they're within range of the engines.
Any Undead Constructs that you can think of - Necropolis Knights, Ushabti, Khemrian Warsphinx, Sepulchral Stalkers, Hierotitan, Necrosphinx. Choose some of these guys that you want in your list and go to town. Even with a sole Mortis Engine and some decent healing, you will greatly increase the lifespan (lol) of these units.
The shooting that never existed in VC
OK, so here's what you do here. You take all the cool shooting components from the TK army and then supplement your existing VC army with it.
What you do:
Gut your entire core and replace them with Skeleton Archers. How you want to take them completely depends on what you want. A big unit does a lot of damage, you don't need a musician because you always hit on 5s no matter what you do. I would probably roll with units of 10-15, or bigger units of 20-30, I would take at least 2 units of these. You want to maintain your deployment advantage with Vanguarding Dire Wolf chaff, so make sure you have save 160 points for 4x units of 5. The rest can either be all shooty, or if you want, take a unit of Ghouls and have some combat in there.
Next, you take 2x Screaming Skull Catapults and keep them cheap, the 90 point variant is fine. Then, you add a Casket of Souls because it's the most awesome thing in the world and gives you a pseudo-shooting solution that can buff your magic as well.
This will allow you to keep the rest of your army how you want. From here, you either branch into an counter-punch style Blenderlord bus, or you can play a beefy counter-punch Regen style block, or you can play a bunch of fighting infantry like a Tomb Prince in Grave Guard with Banner of Barrows block. Basically, at this point you can pretty much freestyle because you just reprimed your core for archer-based chaff removal, kept your own chaff superiority, and added a cheap firing solution in the form of 2x SSCs, which can potentially remove large monsters from the field, like Chimeras. The first time you hit a Regen WoC Chimera with this thing, he will be pissed that you now have this option. Infantry blocks from other armies will also be shocked by the fact you can now rain terror onto his face.
Another cool addition would the Lv.4 High Liche Priest taking LoN. This gives you a greater chance to get Incantation of Righteous Smiting, and possibly allow your big archer units shoot a lot more. Just something to keep in mind.
Terror Bombing you into the ground
OK, this one is a little more gimmicky as you guys know, but the idea here is to deliver a Tomb King with Golden Mask into the enemy lines along side your Vampire Lord's knight bus. Personally, I think this is the best way to deliver this kind of combo because....
1. It's effective, not because of the fear-bomb, but because Golden Deathmask is amazing as an item overall.
2. When it does fear-bomb, it's hilarious because it makes your army godly.
3. Blenderbus + Chariots is the key: It allows you to dictate where the combo is delivered and with all the speed and precision to do it.
4. You might as well bring Terrorgheists because if you're taking this combo, you're not out to make friends anyway.
So here's what you need:
-To be able to play 50% Lords.
-Golden Deathmask on a Tomb King (because it was deemed unfun for it to be on a Tomb Prince), on a chariot, with some more chariots from core.
-You need a Blenderlord in a Black Knight bus, with LoV because you need to be able to heal stuff and move the fast-movers with VDM.
-You need 2x Terrorgheists because they move fast, and combos insanely well with the combo you're going to produce.
-No matter what, you will need the Golden Deathmask, Screaming Banner (on knightbus), Fear Incarnate (on Red Fury, Quickblood Lord), Aura of Dark Majesty (on supporting Vampire BSB). You might as well go Supernatural Terror too while you're at it.
The Splash of TK
This one is pretty self-explanatory. Here, you just take the bare essentials from TK and add it to your army. I'm talking about just adding the Casket or something else, because you want the rest of your army to be VC for some reason.
Biggest additions to the VC army:
Casket of Souls
Liche Priest with Incantation of the Desert Wind
Necotect, for Hatred on Ghouls
Skeleton Archers
Screaming Skull Catapults
The Army Lists
This army likes to sit back and shoot to weaken the enemy force, and then counter-charge with a Blenderbus, Terrorgheist and 6x6 Ghoul block to do the damage. The shooting elements consist of the 2x SSC, Casket of Souls and 2x Archer units. Ethereal Spirit Hosts are a must so you can have extra shooting with the SSC.
This list requires 50% lords or else it's not really possible. Everything here moves really quickly and does a lot of damage for the most part. The idea is to get the TK's Deathmask and the Vampire's Aura of Dark Majesty in around the same location and just go to town with all the Terror effects. The Terrorgheists should be able to scream dead anything in the vicinity, doing 5 wounds on average rolls each vs. Ld.9 while in range of Aura of Dark Majesty.
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