Can 9th just come out already?

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A lot of great points are raised here. I would identify with Najo's Group 2 now, but I was in Group 1 before I lost faith in GW the first time during the price increases, the unrelenting new editions after 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition WHFB, the sidelining of the 'specialist' (read: not as profitable) games and the removal of the Mail Order service.

In my opinion there are in fact only two groups in GW's eyes: those who pay, and those who don't. I believe that GW at some point in the distant past made the reasonable financial decision to cater for the guys that subscribe to White Dwarf, that buy every new release and collect a shedload of armies. I'm sure that this breed of 'Ultragamer' was cultivated, I remember the days when even having a company, let alone a chapter of Space Marines was an ambitious studio project; now the Argos catalogue that every damn rulebook, army book and magazine has become is packed with images of tabletops invisible and groaning under the weight of bloated armies. Big gaming has become normalised in order to increase profit, but in fairness looking after the big spenders is lesson #1 at business school. And big games are awesome.

It should be universally accepted that GW's actions over the years have polarised the gaming community, justifiably or not, and from what I've seen I don't think they've felt able or willing to reverse the trend. That may be our fault in Groups 2 and 3; did GW stop listening and adopt its corporate poker face, issuing legal threats to protect its half-original IP and closing down dialogue with its fanbase, before or after rivals tried to poach their business and their own customers started trolling them and sending them hate mail?

Ultimately, we've taken 15 or so years to reach this point, I don't see things changing for a long time. GW will struggle to climb down from their position gracefully to win back the Group 2 old guard/fringe/low income collectors, and we're already catered for with releases like Mordheim, Dreadfleet and Space Hulk along with the numerous cool models and unit types that are available now, not to mention the lure of other companies' systems and models. I reckon we'll see a lot more of the limited release strategy, especially if the moulds or storage are issues. Clean shelves, full coffers. I'm also stunned that GW have only now bought their own print gear, after decades of producing monthly magazines, new rules editions every 4 years, and all that lovely fiction. Better late than never, I guess.

In terms of positive ideas moving forward, I think communication would be a game changer for GW. I work in the trades, and to buy from plumbers merchants etc you're often required to have an account with the shop. Now if GW had this system they could link players' comments and purchases to individual customers, measure trends in various parts of their customer base and begin to build strategies based on what a general consensus and demographics would suggest is most profitable and popular. It would also please the loyal supporters/fanboys to know they have representation at HQ and acknowledgement of their individual contribution to this hobby. Maybe, and without tongue in cheek, GW could issue certificates to thank customers who reach milestones in their collections- breaking the £1K barrier, painting their first squad, playing or running say 10 instore games? Hell, why not invite the biggest spenders or the most dedicated on a golden ticket to visit HQ, shake a few hands and drink some bubbly? That's the personal touch I'd expect from a premium luxury goods producer.

With the store managers vetting and submitting the info to HQ you'd remove the forum frenzy that probably leaves GW snowblind to constructive criticism, and any haters trying to screw the system. With that personal info available they could use White Dwarf to shout out notable individuals' achievements, local gaming groups, even independant retailers. Rebuild the fanbase connection, bring the lost sheep back into the fold and restore the personal touch to White Dwarf! I want to see real games being played and our community represented. Find a cleverer way to advertise GW, use word of mouth, it's how people make most of their bigger purchase decisions. And, although it may dent sales a little, ease up on other companies' models! How does an 80-90% GW quota for GW hosted games sound? This is a creative industry built by and for creative people. Not everyone will be satisfied with GW's vision no matter how perfectly realised it is.

Finally, regarding impact on the putitive 9th Edition, GW could have the best of both worlds. With highly protected IP on more original models, rival models will be fewer and they'll still come off as the big man for showing magnanimity. If 9th is the clean slate everyone thinks it'll be, it's the perfect time to start fresh consumer records. The guys that paved the road here with £20 notes may be forgotten, but if this game is going to be radically different we'll all be able to start on the ground floor and get behind a more honest, personal approach.

Something's got to change for me to rejoin Group 1, beyond the size of the paint pots, because if GW think the only way they'll secure my purchases is to keep me in the dark on their plans for my game, refuse to support my beloved Space Hulk, Quest and Necromunda, and to force panic purchases through all these 'limited releases', I'll have no option other than to tune out entirely and start or join Group 4: the guys that have tonnes of old GW stuff and no connection with the company at all.
 
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A lot of great points are raised here. I would identify with Najo's Group 2 now, but I was in Group 1 before I lost faith in GW the first time during the price increases, the unrelenting new editions after 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition WHFB, the sidelining of the 'specialist' (read: not as profitable) games and the removal of the Mail Order service.

In my opinion there are in fact only two groups in GW's eyes: those who pay, and those who don't. I believe that GW at some point in the distant past made the reasonable financial decision to cater for the guys that subscribe to White Dwarf, that buy every new release and collect a shedload of armies. I'm sure that this breed of 'Ultragamer' was cultivated, I remember the days when even having a company, let alone a chapter of Space Marines was an ambitious studio project; now the Argos catalogue that every damn rulebook, army book and magazine has become is packed with images of tabletops invisible and groaning under the weight of bloated armies. Big gaming has become normalised in order to increase profit, but in fairness looking after the big spenders is lesson #1 at business school. And big games are awesome.

It should be universally accepted that GW's actions over the years have polarised the gaming community, justifiably or not, and from what I've seen I don't think they've felt able or willing to reverse the trend. That may be our fault in Groups 2 and 3; did GW stop listening and adopt its corporate poker face, issuing legal threats to protect its half-original IP and closing down dialogue with its fanbase, before or after rivals tried to poach their business and their own customers started trolling them and sending them hate mail?

Ultimately, we've taken 15 or so years to reach this point, I don't see things changing for a long time. GW will struggle to climb down from their position gracefully to win back the Group 2 old guard/fringe/low income collectors, and we're already catered for with releases like Mordheim, Dreadfleet and Space Hulk along with the numerous cool models and unit types that are available now, not to mention the lure of other companies' systems and models. I reckon we'll see a lot more of the limited release strategy, especially if the moulds or storage are issues. Clean shelves, full coffers. I'm also stunned that GW have only now bought their own print gear, after decades of producing monthly magazines, new rules editions every 4 years, and all that lovely fiction. Better late than never, I guess.

In terms of positive ideas moving forward, I think communication would be a game changer for GW. I work in the trades, and to buy from plumbers merchants etc you're often required to have an account with the shop. Now if GW had this system they could link players' comments and purchases to individual customers, measure trends in various parts of their customer base and begin to build strategies based on what a general consensus and demographics would suggest is most profitable and popular. It would also please the loyal supporters/fanboys to know they have representation at HQ and acknowledgement of their individual contribution to this hobby. Maybe, and without tongue in cheek, GW could issue certificates to thank customers who reach milestones in their collections- breaking the £1K barrier, painting their first squad, playing or running say 10 instore games? Hell, why not invite the biggest spenders or the most dedicated on a golden ticket to visit HQ, shake a few hands and drink some bubbly? That's the personal touch I'd expect from a premium luxury goods producer.

With the store managers vetting and submitting the info to HQ you'd remove the forum frenzy that probably leaves GW snowblind to constructive criticism, and any haters trying to screw the system. With that personal info available they could use White Dwarf to shout out notable individuals' achievements, local gaming groups, even independant retailers. Rebuild the fanbase connection, bring the lost sheep back into the fold and restore the personal touch to White Dwarf! I want to see real games being played and our community represented. Find a cleverer way to advertise GW, use word of mouth, it's how people make most of their bigger purchase decisions. And, although it may dent sales a little, ease up on other companies' models! How does an 80-90% GW quota for GW hosted games sound? This is a creative industry built by and for creative people. Not everyone will be satisfied with GW's vision no matter how perfectly realised it is.

Finally, regarding impact on the putitive 9th Edition, GW could have the best of both worlds. With highly protected IP on more original models, rival models will be fewer and they'll still come off as the big man for showing magnanimity. If 9th is the clean slate everyone thinks it'll be, it's the perfect time to start fresh consumer records. The guys that paved the road here with £20 notes may be forgotten, but if this game is going to be radically different we'll all be able to start on the ground floor and get behind a more honest, personal approach.

Something's got to change for me to rejoin Group 1, beyond the size of the paint pots, because if GW think the only way they'll secure my purchases is to keep me in the dark on their plans for my game, refuse to support my beloved Space Hulk, Quest and Necromunda, and to force panic purchases through all these 'limited releases', I'll have no option other than to tune out entirely and start or join Group 4: the guys that have tonnes of old GW stuff and no connection with the company at all.

Thank you. I couldn't express better myself.
 
I'm not speaking personally or emotionally about segments. I'm speaking purely economically. The reality with anything that is part of the free market is it needs to break even to survive and it needs to be profitable to thrive. There are a lot of players who speak about GW like they are doing it wrong, but regardless facts are they are the industry leader, they've reported losses more than profits and their miniatures are the on majority highest quality when compared to their competitors. The competitors who are at same quality are priced the same. Privateer, raging heroes, Meirce, are all at roughly the same cost as GW.

So, GW gets flak because they are the leader and has the largest following, which creates a vocal minority that echo chamber to themselves how GW should be better. We all have opinions. But hard reality is if GW can't make money off fantasy then it changes or goes away. And like it or not, but segment one is the only group who has any right to speak out about it because they were the group supporting fantasy with their money. The other two segments weren't. In fact, it's because of segment one that end times happened and we are getting some kind of a reboot. GW is hoping that segment one remains excited and happy with the new product and that they can make it good enough that segment two and segment three can be shrunk by converting many of them to segment one.

Put things in a different perspective. Warhammer 40k is at a good place. It has a low cost entry point, lots of diversity, army books are getting more and more balanced. Miniatures are getting cooler. They are starting to to tap into areas of the mythos that has been out of each. for a long time. The majority of players are a mix of segment one and two. Hardly any three.

Or look at warmahordes, it's mostly segment one with a growing segment two. But no three.

From a purely economical stand point, segment two and three create a parasitic effect to the revenue stream of warhammer. Playing the game without supporting it is counterproductive to that game being successful. GW has to reboot fantasy to protect it in the same way 40k and warmahordes are protected. Get rid of segment three, minimize segment two. Maximize segment one.

Honestly, this was inevitable because fantasy was generic enough to allow segment three to thrive. But allot of us from all segments are attracted to the tropes of fantasy armies. So it will be interesting to see how they remain connected to some of the tropes while maximizing the original IP. Hopefully they do it right.

Also, I'm not personally picking on any segment. Like I mentioned before, as players we want a maximum number of players to play against and share our hobby, and we tend to love the creativity that comes with conversions and other companies miniatures. With that said, I would prefer warhammer remains the best game and that requires players to support it with their dollar. The part I don't get is people who love warhammer, play it and want to be a part of it, yet they don't want to give GW a penny. Explain that one?
 
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Bro there is a huge difference between "give a company a penny" and invest a part of your monthly income in a miniature game. Matter of fact,outside travelling and going out is the thing I personally spend more on. Plus I the kind of person that hate to go to play with the Grey army of greyness. I don't know how fast and how much effort you put into painting , but I doubt any of the undead legion player have painted at least half of what they are playing.
Now, once I buy a new codex every 4 years,which is bullshit because is roughly 10 pages more that interest me,the rest is garbage,even the 'eavy metal sucks compared to before. I could pay to download and print what I need or they could just sell a supplement to the older player but no,everything must be new and shiny,am I right?
Plus who are you guys in sector nr 1 (division is the first step towards discrimination and class fight. Unite we stand my ass) to say you have more right than to me that allegedly I am part of a lesser income ? I'm a 15 years old customer,I got an apartment and bills to pay,now because I don't blow off half of my salary in plastic I'm not allowed to tell that the game I grew up with is going into shit?
Economically speaking they have been greedy and unwise.
Morally speaking...for the love of any god you believe in...
Socially speaking,well I can actually mail the Mantic dude and get an answer in reasonable time, when is the last time GW gave any sorts of PR outside lawsuits?
And again,it is a game? Or is a collection ? Because if it is a game, than I buy the rule book,I buy the codex,I have the miniature, than gw should basically shut the fuck up and let me play in peace for 4 years or so. Or I need to keep on buying smack from the same old pusher to keep my voice heard?
 
I'n sorry Najo, I didn't intend to convey any idea of offence at the segment groupings; my sentiments are the exact opposite, I think they're very useful, and that if GW pays closer attention to its base they'll find evidence of all your groupings, plus maybe several more:
- Diehard loyalists
- Fringe community
- Haters who play
- Haters who don't
- Fresh meat with parents' wallets
- Old guard
- Pro painters and modellers?
By following the trends and interacting with the consumers, GW could take us all on the ride and give us a positive experience we'd all pay for. Even if the games stores, or mail order, or new R+D are a financial burden, if they engaged with us, maybe had a 'boring' exec page where they communicated where they want to take us and even had the front to say: 'look, WD is like a membership fee. Buy this everyone and we can do more exciting stuff and support less poppular stuff to keep the community strong', I guarantee that everyone with a soft spot for the good old days would jump straight on it. They could even encourage more fans to buy shares and help to shape the future of the brand. I'd be there, if someone helped me to get started.
 
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I think you have a point Emicrania regarding cost and the required quality of models for gaming. I would love to game with the Heroquest or single pose plastics from back in the day, I've got such nostalgia for those old school models. Perhaps GW could introduce a budget range? It would get fresh players up and running fast, and double their sales with people upgrading as and when. Cheaper plastics would allow new players to practice and learn the hobby without jacking up £20 worth of stuff, and in pure economic terms would knock Mantic down a peg or two. Even the reprinters would struggle to undercut the market leader in a race to the bottom.
 
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Bro there is a huge difference between "give a company a penny" and invest a part of your monthly income in a miniature game. Matter of fact,outside travelling and going out is the thing I personally spend more on. Plus I the kind of person that hate to go to play with the Grey army of greyness. I don't know how fast and how much effort you put into painting , but I doubt any of the undead legion player have painted at least half of what they are playing.
Now, once I buy a new codex every 4 years,which is bullshit because is roughly 10 pages more that interest me,the rest is garbage,even the 'eavy metal sucks compared to before. I could pay to download and print what I need or they could just sell a supplement to the older player but no,everything must be new and shiny,am I right?
Plus who are you guys in sector nr 1 (division is the first step towards discrimination and class fight. Unite we stand my ass) to say you have more right than to me that allegedly I am part of a lesser income ? I'm a 15 years old customer,I got an apartment and bills to pay,now because I don't blow off half of my salary in plastic I'm not allowed to tell that the game I grew up with is going into shit?
Economically speaking they have been greedy and unwise.
Morally speaking...for the love of any god you believe in...
Socially speaking,well I can actually mail the Mantic dude and get an answer in reasonable time, when is the last time GW gave any sorts of PR outside lawsuits?
And again,it is a game? Or is a collection ? Because if it is a game, than I buy the rule book,I buy the codex,I have the miniature, than gw should basically shut the fuck up and let me play in peace for 4 years or so. Or I need to keep on buying smack from the same old pusher to keep my voice heard?
I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying players aren't united. In fact, I said as players we don't care o much about the market segments. We all just play together. What I said is the only segment that is an influencing factor for GW is the one that buys from them, because they can't monitor sales or trends from segments 2 and 3. Those segments are like ghosts for them. Maybe if GW did a massive survey they could get that data, but I'm sure the weigh the cost return on that. Its similar to companies having to consider piracy. If the user of the product didn't purchase the product from the creator, then the creator can't really consider that person a customer of theirs. Does that make sense?

Also, fantasy is being rebooted because of low sales and infringement by 3rd party companies. So, the segment 1 customers are the ideal GW customer. They buy stuff from GW at whatever frequency their budget allows. Segment 2 and 3 don't. So indirectly Segment 2 and 3 by not supporting GW with money, contributed to the reasons fantasy failed. Yes, we can argue about GW's pricing, rules, etc. But in the end Segment 2 and 3 want to play Warhammer, they just want to do it without supporting GW. So when GW has to ditch the game they want to play, why do they have a right to complain when they weren't funding it?

But that aside, I personally am mostly in segment one. Occasionally I'm segment two for things like bitz or trades. I'm not a huge Segment 3 guy, because I really like the models from GW for the armies I play. I also tend to like newer models, like the last VC skeletons were so good, I replaced all my old skeletons with new ones and then moved my old ones to my Tomb Kings army.

I personal play Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Daemons, and Wood Elves. I have a necron army too. Over the years I've owned most of the other armies. I put about 30-50 bucks a month into my habit with the occasional 100-200.00 splurge about once (maybe twice) a year and I have full GW minis for all four armies. I've been playing warhammer for 25 years. I get hours of enjoyment out of it every week. At the amount I play and pay, I'm easily paying pennies per hour at this point, I'm supporting GW and I'm not feeling any of the negative aspects you are having with them.

So, I don't know about other players here, but unless your playing every army and trying to buy everything new, from my experience most players have 2-4 armies they continuously work on and add to similar to how I do. At least my circle of friends are mostly that way too. We have one guy who has one army, and he only buys new stuff for it and then never buys anything again. He plays lizardmen. He hasn't spent a dime on them since their last book came out. I have another friend who has a Nurgle Daemon army that he just keep making cool conversions and adding too, and he seems to have spurts of spending and not spending. Occasionally he will mix in something crazy from a 3rd party and convert the hell out of it. I would still say he averages about 50.00 per month though. The most crazy of guys I know buys every 40k release. Basically, they make it he buys at least one box or two, and then tries the army out. He is spending a few hundred a month. That's as crazy as I've seen. So, I don't know where this spend your whole paycheck on plastic is coming from, because in my experience you can enjoy this hobby on 50.00-100.00 per month comfortably and that is a reasonable amount of money for a hobby that provides so much hours of modelling, painting and playing with friends.
 
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$50 a month? Or more?? Yeesh.

I couldn't imagine having a hobby that cost that much. I use to be a console gamer and thought that was an expensive hobby. I'd only ever spent $200 a year at most with that.

I mean sure I'm a college student, and my income experience has been pretty low so far. But so have my bills. I'd imagine with a 200% increase in pay and bills I'd have the hobby budget I do now (math says so).

I've never understood where so many hobbyists get so much disposable income.

This has been a broke college students perspective.
 
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I'm easily dropping $200 or more per month on wargames. Easily. if I could, I'd spend more! I gotta buy a load more Romans and Gauls, I could do with some more Demigryph knights, some more Vostroyans, I still haven't picked up the latest Chaos Space Marine codex, I want to build a large ruined cathedral for my 40K table out of the Pegasus Gothic city kits, I'm buying up models and bits for my Inquisition warbands, I could do with another Stormraven, Dreadknight, and Landraider for my Grey Knights, I want to do up some Daemon infested terrain, some Necron tomb world terrain, then I want to renovate the gaming room and shed, build a new table, buy some superheavy tanks for my Astra Militarum, buy some new Nurgle stuff for my Chaos forces...

You get the idea.
 
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I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying players aren't united. In fact, I said as players we don't care o much about the market segments. We all just play together. What I said is the only segment that is an influencing factor for GW is the one that buys from them, because they can't monitor sales or trends from segments 2 and 3. Those segments are like ghosts for them. Maybe if GW did a massive survey they could get that data, but I'm sure the weigh the cost return on that. Its similar to companies having to consider piracy. If the user of the product didn't purchase the product from the creator, then the creator can't really consider that person a customer of theirs. Does that make sense?

Also, fantasy is being rebooted because of low sales and infringement by 3rd party companies. So, the segment 1 customers are the ideal GW customer. They buy stuff from GW at whatever frequency their budget allows. Segment 2 and 3 don't. So indirectly Segment 2 and 3 by not supporting GW with money, contributed to the reasons fantasy failed. Yes, we can argue about GW's pricing, rules, etc. But in the end Segment 2 and 3 want to play Warhammer, they just want to do it without supporting GW. So when GW has to ditch the game they want to play, why do they have a right to complain when they weren't funding it?

But that aside, I personally am mostly in segment one. Occasionally I'm segment two for things like bitz or trades. I'm not a huge Segment 3 guy, because I really like the models from GW for the armies I play. I also tend to like newer models, like the last VC skeletons were so good, I replaced all my old skeletons with new ones and then moved my old ones to my Tomb Kings army.

I personal play Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Daemons, and Wood Elves. I have a necron army too. Over the years I've owned most of the other armies. I put about 30-50 bucks a month into my habit with the occasional 100-200.00 splurge about once (maybe twice) a year and I have full GW minis for all four armies. I've been playing warhammer for 25 years. I get hours of enjoyment out of it every week. At the amount I play and pay, I'm easily paying pennies per hour at this point, I'm supporting GW and I'm not feeling any of the negative aspects you are having with them.

So, I don't know about other players here, but unless your playing every army and trying to buy everything new, from my experience most players have 2-4 armies they continuously work on and add to similar to how I do. At least my circle of friends are mostly that way too. We have one guy who has one army, and he only buys new stuff for it and then never buys anything again. He plays lizardmen. He hasn't spent a dime on them since their last book came out. I have another friend who has a Nurgle Daemon army that he just keep making cool conversions and adding too, and he seems to have spurts of spending and not spending. Occasionally he will mix in something crazy from a 3rd party and convert the hell out of it. I would still say he averages about 50.00 per month though. The most crazy of guys I know buys every 40k release. Basically, they make it he buys at least one box or two, and then tries the army out. He is spending a few hundred a month. That's as crazy as I've seen. So, I don't know where this spend your whole paycheck on plastic is coming from, because in my experience you can enjoy this hobby on 50.00-100.00 per month comfortably and that is a reasonable amount of money for a hobby that provides so much hours of modelling, painting and playing with friends.

I agree with you 100% and that sum of money seems more than fairly acceptable and is what I spend now.
But last year I picked up warhammer again after years and I started a new army,Vc, and picked up an half 40k army,blood angels.
Can you imagine what does it means start from 0?
I spent about 150£ of material and gw mini from wayland, 150£ airbrush and compressor,160£ mantic, 200£ used stuff,50£ recaster and got some stuff as a present from a friend. In 4-5 months... Than ETC came,my balls smoked and I start to rage.
Especially now that I got home in Italy (I've been living in the WAAAAARM Sweden for a while now), and I basically have another two core only army,o&g n nurgle.
I love the game AND the miniature collection and I understand is hard out there,but I'll never stop to blame them to go with shareholders and shit...
 
$50 a month? Or more?? Yeesh.

I couldn't imagine having a hobby that cost that much. I use to be a console gamer and thought that was an expensive hobby. I'd only ever spent $200 a year at most with that.

I mean sure I'm a college student, and my income experience has been pretty low so far. But so have my bills. I'd imagine with a 200% increase in pay and bills I'd have the hobby budget I do now (math says so).

I've never understood where so many hobbyists get so much disposable income.

This has been a broke college students perspective.


That's why when I was in college for me was ONLY used stuff. Even a new brush was "wow, new shiny toy!"
Than you grow up,get a bigger salary,get less free time,get more frustrated,spend money in shit you don't need,new TV,new mobile phone,new forniture aaaaand you are back to buy a pot of colour "wow,new shiny toy!"

-.-
 
I guess the tricky part is GW feels expensive from certain perspectives or where your economically at in life. I get the struggles of the college student trying to play or the starting an army from zero. Those two circumstances make second hand and third party much more appealing. There is a cost though, which the extreme is the game or company we love goes away. When we are primarily buying from third party, not only if gw not getting our money, but their competitors are getting our money. That weakens GW and strengths not GW. Secondary market buying doesn't directly support GW, it's possible money spent on someone's army they are getting rid of leads back to buying new at some point, but secondary purchasing doesn't strengthen GW or their competitors. So, if your a big GW fan and love their stuff, buy from them when you can, secondary market when you can't and avoid third party unless you really like something there. That keeps GW reasonably fed.

On the flip side, GW should sell bundles and core troops at lower prices. Army starters should be easy to buy and play out of the box. That would help counter some secondary market and third party stuff. They bundle and price entry and miniature bloat points properly and I think players would be happier about the cost of the hobby.
 
If 9th Edition maintains the high model count of a standard army, the only way to achieve this would be to cut costs on the core by simplifying the moulds, increasing their durability and using cheaper materials. The reduction in quality would be justified by increasing the game's accessibility to a wider market and selling much greater volume.

Unfortunately GW's mission statement of producing the highest quality models available at premium quality prices ensures that this won't happen. Which begs the question, if GW aren't prepared to compromise the models for the game and its community, why are they happy to compromise the game, and a lot of its players, in pursuit of building a reputation for producing high quality (read: expensive) models? Money. This truth bears out: they're happily milking Group 1 and ignoring Groups 2 and 3.

The reason I believe the rumours of a 9th Edition skirmish game at entry level are true is that rather than make their models more economically viable for those of us that really can't justify £30+ per week on toys, they could change the game to allow smaller starting forces so you can have a balanced force straight out of the box.

Sadly, the prospect of changing the game is upsetting the gamers, whose backs are against the wall. Support the game by not having models to play it until the next edition renders your one purchase obsolete, or find another way to get your army where it needs to be. And at this rate, it seems the game we were being asked to support and in many cases did, is no longer being supported for us by GW anyway.
 
If 9th Edition maintains the high model count of a standard army, the only way to achieve this would be to cut costs on the core by simplifying the moulds, increasing their durability and using cheaper materials. The reduction in quality would be justified by increasing the game's accessibility to a wider market and selling much greater volume.

The cost for GW when producing models comes form the design, mold creation, packaging and distribution. The amount of plastic and the intricacy of the molds is a minimal cost. Re-cutting the molds to simplify them wouldn't save GW any significant amount of $ per casting, but would significantly increase their costs by needing to create a new mold to start with.

A couple of problems I can identify with WHFB: Units require multiple boxes to be effective, and you need multiple units per army. Unlike 40K where even with Imperial Guard I can buy a single squad and have a functional unit, I need at least four boxes of skeletons for a single unit, two or even three boxes of black knights, and god help you if you play skaven or goblins! This is a problem not experienced with other games like warmachine or infinity where, even if the models are expensive, you only need a handful of them for a game.

The second problem (and it's linked to the first one) is that people naturally want to play large games. In 40K there is an outlet for that in the Apocalypse system, where any time you play more than about 2,000 points you're really looking at an Apoc game. In WHFB, people don't want to stuff around with 1,000 point games, or 1,500 point games, and often don't want to even play 2,000 points instead preferring 2,250 or 2,500 or more. And how many times have you read about new players starting up an army, and practically breaking their necks trying to get enough models to play at 2,000 or more points? New players don't want to play small games, by and large.

So your stuck with a system where players want to play large games, but the cost of doing so is prohibitive. Even spending hundreds of dollars a month, it can take a very long time to build up a 2,500 point army.

For these reasons and others, I expect GW has decided to re-boot WHFB, in an attempt to reduce the cost of entry by making smaller games more attractive while simultaneously encouraging larger games through a extra battle-mode ala Apocalypse, where we will see all these End Times units. Now, this is all just conjecture and theory, but I reckon I'm going to be pretty close to the mark.

Maybe the new rules will be great. Maybe they won't. But one thing is for certain, GW has literally killed all my characters and rendered all their background moot, so they'd better do a damn good job of reconstructing WHFB or I'm simply going to pretend the End Times never happened, and happily continue playing 8th ed until the end of my days.
 
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@Blutsauger has hit the nail oh the head as for wfb problem. Cost per new unit and preferred size of game.

9th edition needs to scale up and down point wise easily and be fun to play both skirmished and regimental. New and casual players could learn on low point value skirmish games. As a player gets the hobby down they can add to their units/army a box at a time and going regimental is seen as high level play done one you comfortable with the base game. Us vets would be able to delve into high point value regimental play. But we could have fun with warbands and small skirmishes too. This also give tons of new ways to play wfb. Makes seige and building rules easy to do (ie units break formation and go skirmisher in buildings). If 9th gives us mordheim+40k+wfb style games in one package, that could be amazing.
 
I wanna give you 2 example here and than you tell me what to think about it:

1) last year I got back in warhammer right after a big trip and I was little bit short on money but committed to start to play again after X years and to start a Vc army. I got into a group and right after a couple of weeks they were gonna start an escalation campaign that would spread thru 5 months. Now I knew nearly nothing about 8ed or Vc, but I jumped on the wagon and put all myself at work.
Let's say I had a pretty clear idea of what kind of army I wanted to play and the whole background about it. Let's say I cab go back and buy only exactly what I needed .
This would be my shopping chart in 5 months for play a tournament from 500 to 2000 pts escalating 250 pts at the time :

Vampire lord 20$
2 necromancer 30$
1 Cairn Wraith 15$
20 DW 50$
45 Skelly 125$
20 Zeds(plus info at least 20) 70$
6 CH 94$
1 ME 62$
1 TG 58$
-----------------;
That's 524$, roughly 100+$ per month ,without codex,glue,colours,primer,case,etc etc.
Can you blame me for spend 85$ at mantic and get 30 BETTER zombie,20 OK zombie(ghouls) ,20 OK skelly and 40 men skelly).
Can you blame me for spend 40$ and get 6 wolf that looks BETTER than the CH?
Side note: better is an aestethical judgment, so subject at any kind of interpretation .
Can you judge me to buy half used?

Example nr2:

Last week my group started another tournament, Swedcomp based, 500 escalating to 2000,200pts every 3 weeks and being (again) from a mayor trip,I'm broke as a (white occidental) man can be.
I have a nurgle army on the go and I was really looking forward to play it. But I had to take a choose,I made a sound (IMHO) list and checked the economical situation:

1 Great Unclean One 58$
Epidemius 50$
Herald 25$
Plaguebearersx41 116$
6 Beasts 150$
3 Drones 60$
_-----------------------;
459$ and about 50-60 miniature and one big less.
Titan forge makes a waaaaaaay better GUO for 12$ less,really cooler herald for the same price and sells 6 different and insanely more beatifull beasts for 58(!!!!!!)$ less.
So I thought,ain't gonna happen,let's see the O&G I have, I got a pretty nice base there.
Let's just say I stopped at 1000pts list...

How you gonna solve that? Personally,I like some of the hero,most of the special and all the rare of the GW,but the core,the main of the army,is simply not gonna happen that I'm gonna buy 2-300$ of troop where you don't even see a 20% of the details


Edit:btw I'm gonna do this tournament with the VC so I can finish painting them.

PS: what you guys think,is better take a complimentary 6CH,Me and TG or 4CH,5Hex and 3 Varg with the Me and the monoblock of skelly?( I go with the list I wrote on top,all char in one block,so the vamp is first line,the cairn block front row and 2 necro support constantly on the 2 line
 
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This really is the crux of the matter. Ideally 9th will be a fully upscaleable system to allow newcomers and the less wealthy to start small. The problem of people wanting to play big in order to field a wider variety of units is solved by less unit variety. The only problem is, that won't put Kirby's kids through college...

Truth is, we already have a points system with numbers smaller than 3000. With GW having basically put its collective hands up and admitted they're not catering for competitive play, we can stop worrying about game balance and just have fun with it all. We already have Skirmish, Seige, WFRP, Mighty Empires and Warmaster; all the tools I'll ever need for campaigning. Further, the move to 9th seems to threaten the utility of most of our generic troops; I believe them when they say 'the Warhammer World will never be the same again'.

The only advantage I can see in this new edition is if GW pulls a U-turn and tightens up the rules system at all levels of play. If that happens, and they get behind tournament endorsement, they could find themselves heading for a piece of Magic's market and competitive appeal. Also, there is the possibility that the fluff could be awesome.
 
@Emicrania Again, I like to clear something up. As players we don't care so much which segment players are in. So there is no judgment, if your feeling judged by the market segment post I made that wasn't the intent nor what I have said. At no point was I criticizing segment 2 or 3.

The harsh facts is without our revenue, GW starves and dies. Warhammer dies. Segment 1 is the only segment that keeps Warhammer supported. We are all various percentages of the segments. I'm mostly segment one and then partly segment two. @LordTobiothan is mostly segment two and partly segment one from the sound of it due to his status as a college student right now. That is just the reality of his circumstance. Completely understandable. You got to be frugal and creativity when going through college.

Still, if we all become segment two or three, GW and Warhammer dies. That means no new miniatures, rules, etc. I personally don't want that to happen. So since I can, I try to be segment one as much as possible. Part of the value of what I'm buying is securing the longevity of a creativity product that I love. If I don't, then GW does away. That is just the reality of how commerce works.

With all of that in mind, you can work with FLGS and online providers to get new GW at discounts these days. You do not have to pay full retail. There are many online sources at 20% off retail and I'm sure you can walk into a retailer you have near your home and ask if they will match prices or provide a flat discount for volume purchasing. Retailers would like to make a living too, and they are important as they provide a place for new gamers to get created or veterans to come together and play. Ask a store owner if they have a discount program or would provide a discount to you. It's not going to hurt.

See, its like replanting trees when harvesting lumber. There is a whole ecosystem of supply, demand, creation, new ideas and continuity. If this wasn't a creative product and hobby with a social aspect with the whole gamer's clubhouse plus supply of new ideas being supported then the whole segment thing wouldn't matter so much.

So let's take your two examples. I would find a FLGS or online supplier for a discount. And if you really like Mantic's skeletons over GW's then use Mantic's. I personally think the GW VC skeletons a WAY better. Bets skeletons ever. The zombies though, I totally get. I've told GW they need new Zeds. I personally find the GW zombies charming as I've played with them forever and they are gross and funny all at once. I would like something more current and scary though. That said, you mix a box of zombies and empire soldiers together and they are pretty amazing. Very warhammer looking zombies at that point. But either way, getting those undead at 20% off makes the cost more reasonable and your would still be supporting GW (and possibly a FLGS).

Or the Daemons. I don't like the finecast/old greater daemons either. They are very dated. I would either custom build a greater daemon or go for the forge world ones. I personally wouldn't want to throw the cash down on a forge world model unless I was going to get a lot of use out of that model. Also, GUO has a great option with the Glottkin model. If I was playing Nurgle Daemons I would buy Glottkin, magnetize the brothers sit on his back and then use him as a GUO or Glottkin as needed. That model is fantastic! If there is ultimately another model you like better though, use it.

For me its not entirely about cutting cost. Saving money is important, but my purchasing new supports the hobby I love. I make sure I get a discount, I plan my purchases, I genuinely love GW's miniatures most of the time and I rather have new out of the box miniatures than second hand miniatures I have to clean up. I prefer to assemble and paint as I want, and new miniatures are ideal for that. But whatever you have to do for yourself is what you need to do. I am not being judgmental. Just pointing out a reality about how the economics in this situation works. Our feelings don't change the facts that if GW doesn't get our money, new Warhammer models and fluff goes away. Its already happening on some level.
 
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Personally, I wouldn't be sad if GW went under. Then I wouldn't have to buy a new rulebook and new army book every five years, as well as update my army with new units that, frankly, just seem crammed in to make more money. Stormfiends? Ugh. Even the Morghasts feel, I dunno, just like they really don't belong in an Undead army. Like they just invented a unit out of thin air to justify the fact that they had a new release. If I could just keep playing with 8th edition, using my current army, forever, then I'd be happy.

The only downside is that GW models would then be relegated to recasters and second-hand only, and the price would invariably go up. Starting new armies would be very difficult.
 
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And you are currently forced to buy GW stuff because?
They are not stealing your money. You are willingly giving it :)
 
This is a very interesting discussion, I just wanted to put in my two cents.

The hobby is not as expensive as most make it out to be. The example given by Emicrania is actually shows this quite well.

If you buy that army he presents, you pay less than $100 dollars per month and you get dozens of hours of gluing, painting and basing each month. What other hobby gets you entertainment for what amounts to a few dollars an hour? On top of this, once you make this $524 investment you can play with your army for several years to come without paying another $500 when a new edition of your army comes out.

In the people I talk to and play I notice a trend. A lot of the people who complain about how expensive the models frequently shell out a ton of $$$ on other stuff for entertainment. So it comes down to choice. Do you prefer to buy and build a unit of unit of zombies or do you prefer to get a gadget for you car/phone/home?

Also, ironically, I found that as a teenager with very little $$$ I enjoyed the hobby more. Saving up for that cool Lahmian vampiress, finally buying her and the assembling and painting her in the best possible way I could was quite a treat... and then come Christmas I would get something bigger... a Black Coach... what a treat.

Now the limiting factor is time, not money. I could buy a new unit every month (heck every week) but so what? I would never have the time to assemble and paint them.
 
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This is a very interesting discussion, I just wanted to put in my two cents.

The hobby is not as expensive as most make it out to be. The example given by Emicrania is actually shows this quite well.

If you buy that army he presents, you pay less than $100 dollars per month and you get dozens of hours of gluing, painting and basing each month. What other hobby gets you entertainment for what amounts to a few dollars an hour? On top of this, once you make this $524 investment you can play with your army for several years to come without paying another $500 when a new edition of your army comes out.

In the people I talk to and play I notice a trend. A lot of the people who complain about how expensive the models frequently shell out a ton of $$$ on other stuff for entertainment. So it comes down to choice. Do you prefer to buy and build a unit of unit of zombies or do you prefer to get a gadget for you car/phone/home?

Also, ironically, I found that as a teenager with very little $$$ I enjoyed the hobby more. Saving up for that cool Lahmian vampiress, finally buying her and the assembling and painting her in the best possible way I could was quite a treat... and then come Christmas I would get something bigger... a Black Coach... what a treat.

Now the limiting factor is time, not money. I could buy a new unit every month (heck every week) but so what? I would never have the time to assemble and paint them.
There was a Dork Tower that illustrated that very point your making. I tried to find it, but there is to many to shift through and searches aren't bringing it up. Essentially, one of the guys is going around to various places and buys a 7.00 coffee, a 20.00 movie ticket, 200.00 pair of shoes, 60.00 video game and then complains with he buys a 39.99 RPG book that he won't have to replace for 10 years. The point was the same, return on expensive for gaming materials, even a 500-1000$ army is very good compared to nearly everything else people spend money on. We replace our computers and phones faster than our miniatures. Not to mention the amount of money that goes into video games, movies, eating out etc. Warhammer is not expensive in comparison to any of that.
 
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Very true. Our hobby is not, in the grand scheme of things, terribly expensive. Although it is worth noting that every four years you're up for ~$200 for a new rulebook and army book when they re-release the game for no reason at all.
I mean, it all depends on how you want to spend your money. I could drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on wargaming, building my own little wargaming bungalow with multiple tables, pressurised dust-proof display cabinets, climate control, etc etc. There's really no limit to how much I *could* spend.

It's like anything, you've just got to decide what value-for-money means for you, and where your priorities lie.
 
Will also note I think it's clear GW are bringing model count down due to 50% Lords and Heroes...

Like I pushed our group to get into the 2-2400 games to open up my ability to run a vamp-ragon as it is cool as hell..but now...I could happily play a 1500pt game, run my dragon, min core (now 375 instead of 5-600pts) and something else.

Essentially, to play with your big toys you needed to go big, now, not so much.

40k works as there is no minimum spend on troops, or max on anything else. So you can go 2 tiny squads and a cheap 'hero' level HQ, then fill the rest of the list with you big toys...

See the difference there between non 50% fantasy and 40k...
 

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