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2000 Blood Dragon

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#26
Not a fan of people with differing opinions, are you? I think your army is a powergaming one (Although on reflection a "proper" powergamer might drop some of the troops and take a boring Necromancer with two scrolls instead), for reasons listed, and you seem to have a fair amount of success with it (Which I'm sure is partially due to player skill as well as the list, of course). Again: that is not actually an insult! No need to take it so personally, when you get angry and start flaming people repeatedly there's only one person you make look foolish, and it's not the person you're ranting at.

Just go back and look at my saying you were "playing dumb": this was directly in response to your claiming that the fact your Dragon is vulnerable to missile fire means it's not a powergaming list, which is fallacious for so many reasons. Now you can't actually remember the last time he was killed (By anything, including missile fire)... if the main vulnerability is something that never actually stops you winning, then it's not a vulnerability, is it?
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#27
I'm a huge fan of differing opinions. You're not giving a differing opinion, you're calling me a Power Gamer which is a derogatory title, and then go insulting me multiple times by questioning my intelligence; and implying I'm a liar at the same time by questioning my 'consistency'. And then telling me not to 'flame' and take it personal as you throw in a jab about my view on opinions.

I can understand that someone who doesn't know much about the game sees a Lord on Dragon and thinks Power Gamer despite the army he's attached to. But there's simply no way anyone who actually looks at the whole list here can call it Power Gaming. I'd be shocked if someone not use to this army could win 50%. Power gaming without the 'Power' isn't Power Gaming.

Anyhows, I'll avoid taking it personally now, but in return you should sling less mud at people. Makes it a whole lot easier to not take it personally that way.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
46
#28
Sphynx said:
Do you honestly think it's a "power-gaming list"? Maybe we have different definitions of Power Gaming though.... Why do you call it Power Gaming?
I would have to agree with EvC and almost everyone else in the thread, I call it a powergaming list because most lists are made to have a fun competitive game with friends, buddies, or whoever may wander into the shop.

Your list is nothing more than something to try to trash anyone who maybe up against you, where’s the fun in that? How is anyone learning anything? The only lesson anyone would take away from a game with lists like this is "Player A had more cheese on the table than Player B".

Then the way you talk about the list you seem like the kind of person just looking for a way to hammer your opponents into the ground. I don’t know about everyone else but when i sit back and think about past games, i can remember games when i beat the hell out of someone, but the games that stand out the most are the ones where i had to out think someone late in the game, or the time a unit held and cause the enemy to break and ran into something else, or some great tactic i pulled off on a wing and a prayer.

Those are fun memories, not the time i pulled out some gas and burned my opponents army while beating them with a hammer on the table. (Although that would be a funky memory....)
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#29
I'm not going to re-hash this whole thread again. Just go back and read what's already been said since you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. Actually, 'try' to make a list that this army could trash/hammer/etc. Any army. Even a war-machine-less Khorne army. Then try it out and watch how quickly this army loses.

And what the hell is up with you having 1 post and using that to attack me? You've been on here what? 5 minutes, did 1 post attacking me and logged off?
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#30
What I want to know is, who buys 70 dire wolves? And yeah, this doesn't look like a power list to me at all. Direwolves in CC suck. They're good for outnumber and to deny ranks, and to take out warmachines and that's it. Fell bats ditto. Any kind of shooty army would have a field day with this. Same goes for infantry. Skinks would eat it for breakfast with a zombie dragon's 5+ AS. And unless you got lucky with an irresistible casting of IoN, good luck healing that dragon. A decent hero as well would eat it for breakfast (in a unit with combat res).

But yeah, but to my original question; who the heck has 70 wolves?
 

Azahul

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
1,036
#32
i agree with grishnak, this army isnt very good at power gaming. yes it could dominate the movement phase, but, as pointed out by Sphynx, most of the time the majority of the wolves, thanks to the number of wolves and possibly the faster movement of the Dragon (though really there is only a 2" difference between 18" and 20", so most of the units that start off in range should stay in range for most of the battle) the large majority of the army would be moving only just faster than your average infantry unit. and as to hiding the dragon, there is always either not going to be the right terrain (it is a large target), the opponent having a hill, your opponent having spells that dont need LoS, etc. there will usually be something that can shoot the dragon. and most armies would be able to beat this army quite easily. Khorne armies for example, would have so many attacks per guy that all the flank and rear charges would just result in the wolves getting wiped out (trust me, i know from experience) magic being completely canceled out by all the dispel dice and the dragon when it finally gets in to combat will probably kill a lot, but then die from the retaliotory attacks in the next phase (notice the dragons I :lol:)
however i do agree that this army is rather unbalanced :tongue:
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#33
Grishnak... that would be me. ;) And you think that's bad... I have 40 Warhawks, and 35 pegasus knights (Yeah, I do a Royal Air Force style army as well).
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#34
It's quite telling that Sphynx still claims that his general is so easily killed by missile fire, but refuses to tell of a time that it's ever happened. For the record, once again, that's all that I said was playing dumb: making a claim of how easily something happens, when it doesn't actually ever happen in practise. I'd have been happy to discuss this on its merits, and if you don't agree with my view that it's a powergaming list then I'd happily accept that opinion... no need to be so aggressive.
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#35
Please provide quotes from this point onward because you still keep making claims of me saying something I haven't said. I've never said that my general is easily killed by missile fire. Warmachine fire, yeah, Combat Resolution wounds, yes. Close Combat or Shooting attacks, not so much. The difficult part of this army is keeping the General out of combat past the charge. If he gets stuck in combat, he tends to start losing wounds fast from combat resolution. Up til that point, he's pretty hard to hurt unless you have some bolt throwers or something.

He's -suppose- to be hard to kill. He's the General and if he dies the whole army crumbles since it's undead. If he easily fell to missile fire, it would be an idiotic list. Him being able to withstand missile fire doesn't make it a Power Gaming, it makes it a matter of survival. Unless, of course, you think having a Slann Mage Priest in a game is an automatic "Power Gaming".

You will notice I replied with out your cheap-style jabbing of "playing dumb" and "making claims" that are unsubstatianted. If you actually want to discuss this, stop with the jabs or my followup will tear you apart.
 

Azahul

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
1,036
#36
grishnakh99 said:
And yeah, this doesn't look like a power list to me at all. Direwolves in CC suck. They're good for outnumber and to deny ranks, and to take out warmachines and that's it. Fell bats ditto. Any kind of shooty army would have a field day with this. Same goes for infantry. Skinks would eat it for breakfast with a zombie dragon's 5+ AS. And unless you got lucky with an irresistible casting of IoN, good luck healing that dragon. A decent hero as well would eat it for breakfast (in a unit with combat res).
i meant what i said Sphynx, i said i agreed with this :tongue:
seriously guys, this thread has more flaming in it than practically the entire Hour of the Wolf campaign. lighten up, it's just a game ;)
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#37
Yeah, caught that Azahul, definitely wasn't aimed at you nor Grishnakh. :) Just gettin tired of EvC throwing these little jabs at me the whole time he's telling me to not be offensive or offended.
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#38
This thread is becoming convoluted, I recommend we return to the initial subject and this thread will not be closed. Flaming comments will not be tolerated and should they be used, warnings will be given out.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#39
Sphynx said:
Please provide quotes from this point onward because you still keep making claims of me saying something I haven't said. I've never said that my general is easily killed by missile fire. Warmachine fire, yeah, Combat Resolution wounds, yes. Close Combat or Shooting attacks, not so much. The difficult part of this army is keeping the General out of combat past the charge. If he gets stuck in combat, he tends to start losing wounds fast from combat resolution. Up til that point, he's pretty hard to hurt unless you have some bolt throwers or something.

He's -suppose- to be hard to kill. He's the General and if he dies the whole army crumbles since it's undead. If he easily fell to missile fire, it would be an idiotic list. Him being able to withstand missile fire doesn't make it a Power Gaming, it makes it a matter of survival. Unless, of course, you think having a Slann Mage Priest in a game is an automatic "Power Gaming".
Apart from the repeated passive aggressive flaming which I hope we can leave behind, good response! It's funny though, I'm not arguing that this is a power gaming list because your general can withstand missile fire: in fact it's the opposite, as you claimed that because he's "vulnerable to missile fire" (Your exact words before you say I'm making things up again), that means it isn't a power list. But that is not the case.

The point is, investing all those points in one model, and backing him up with a fast army that should take care of the real threats to him quite quickly, leaving you free reign to pick your targets and smash through your enemy, is what I would call power gaming. I don't believe that most of your opponents can take out 3 units of Fell Bats in a single turn, so warmachines should all be destroyed quickly (A smart enemy general can avoid that, though). A massively tooled-up 2nd Gen Slann or Lord Kroak hanging behind the battle lines where they can't be killed by most enemies? Sure, that's power gaming. Karl Franz or another special character on a Dragon, backed up only by fast moving troops (or artillery where available)? Hell yeah! Taking a list with not a single banner to capture? That's a factor.

At least, in theory. As I noted earlier, there's no dull scroll caddy, which makes it less of a power list (But then you can't fit in another character, and the Cursed Book is very effective in this army, assuming the Wraith can survive), and more of an attempt at a fun list that is inadvertently a power gaming list. Like someone who wants to make a Paravon-themed Bretonnian army and ends up with the infamous "RAF", or a Nuln artillery train (Or any number of Dwarf armies). So you came up with a hard-as-nails (albeit a little all-eggs-in-one-basket) army list, that you do well with. Is this an attack on you? It honestly is not.

Your playing style also seems a little hard to interpret... do you really send your Dire Wolves into combats where they face no chance? Do you really just throw your general into combats against the front of massive ranked-up units? If you do fight like that, and you still have a good win record, then that's proof, in my eyes at least.
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
194
#40
Then we have very differing definitions of Power Gaming. Yes, that's almost exactly what I do. I dispose my wolves. Their objective is to do whatever it takes to keep me out of combat. I line them up so that the toughest units will hopefully over-run further and further away from my General. I take out the smallest weakest units first as fast as possible to avoid getting flanked when I run out of Wolves. But these are called strategies and tactics. Building an army around a specific plan.

As a roleplayer, my favorite style of gaming is to play a 'character'. Vampire Lords are the best characters out there, and topped off with, they're the only army that you can have 'just' a character with (and his pets). I go into battle purely to look for a great warrior. I see 2 armies approaching each other and rather than let them fight, I go rip into one, then having not found a worthy opponent, rip into the other (that's how I visualize my games, not how my opponents necessarily visualize them).

There simply is no other army, or other way to create this army, that allows for that "fluff". The Wraith is pushing it, I know that, and I only started using him because I kept getting my Lord handed to me by things like BloodThirsters, or Wood Elf Highborns with Annoyance of Netlings and Spirit Sword on Forest Dragons. A Necessary evil since everyone I played had found the perfect 'defense' against this army. My original list lacked a Wraith, instead having Bat Swarms (which in 7th edition just aren't worth taking). So, thematically, the Wraith is my Goddess Ariel, in avatar form (I'm playing a Wood Elf with Wolves and WarHawks as you'll recall). She's not real, but as long as I feel that she's near me, I'm more resistant to being hit.

My playing goes like this:

Use the Wolves to pull huge CR units away from the General.
Use FellBats (without a champion obviously) to take on 'bunkered' wizards with 2 Bat Attacks at the same time and if needed attack any War Machines.
Use Vampire Lord to take out War Machines first, supported by any extra units of Fell Bats.

Next Up:
Remove all Fast Cavalry and Skirmishers with Vampire Lord attacks.

If successful with wizard-removal tactics, use magic to whittle away at large r-n-f units. Otherwise, continue attacking the weakest unit and hope to cause Fleeing before they force you to stick to combat.

On paper, excellent plan. In practice, wolves die out too quickly, Special items/spells get Vampire Lord tied up in battle unexpectedly. FellBats can't get to, or kill the Wizards. WarMachines are more successful at removing Fell Bats than Fell Bats are at removing ar Machines. Too many 1's rolled in a row for toughness/armour against missile fire. Etc Etc Etc.

A wide, out in the open Lord (even if on a Dragon) as your only serious threat to the enemy, doesn't go as well as a nicely bunkered with improved Barded-Steed Armour save in the middle of a 9+ strong unit of Black Knights with the Crown that gives you a Ward Save. I -could- make this list a Power Gaming list by removing all the Wolves, but that would go against my fluff as a 'character' fighting an entire army by himself.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#41
Sphynx said:
I've never said that my general is easily killed by missile fire. Warmachine fire, yeah
:lol: War machine fire is missile fire ;)
 

Azahul

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
1,036
#42
only bigger :D
[neutral observation] ive always found it amusing that when people are lectured about not flaming they both deny any flaming on their part... [neutral observation]




the above comment was completely off topic and had nothing to do with this thread




:lol:
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#44
We play a game with miniature figures. We build them, paint them, play with them, argue rules, and write fluff. I think we can all assume everyone here has too much time on their hands (well the grown ups anyways, kids should have fun).
 
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