40k beginner army

[Dogmar]

Hey guys,

I've yet to start 40k but seeing that the local community moves more and more from fantasy to the realms of the 41st century I thought I'd try the game out some time soon. Note though, that there's a lot of work to do on my Vamps, so it might take a while, but I'm definitely interested.

What I'd like to know now: Which army is nice to play, has conversion possibilities, and is good to learn the rules with?

If anyone now says: Space Marines! I'll smash said person's skull with a machete (I actually really own one...).

So, no Space Marines please!

I was thinking about DE, Daemon Hunters or Deamons as I like small elite forces and these were my first candidates when I thought of that.

Any other suggestions or comments on the playstyle of either of the armies?

Maybe you can even persuade me to go for a horde style army...

Cheers,

Dogmar

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I hear you about the SMurfs, mate. Welcome to the And They Shall Know No Space Marines Club. Firstly, I'll advise you to stay away from starting Dark Eldar as your first 40k army unless you are truly a masochist. Their codex outright states that they are(and always were) a veteran's army, and they are the single most unforgiving army to play. Unless you're really dedicated and don't mind learning the very hard way, chances are within a few months you will be selling your DE on Ebay.

I don't suggest DH either. It's surprising why you'd consider DH at all, because I consider them(as in their army, not their fluff) to be little more than another flavor of Space Marines.

What I would suggest is Daemons or Tau. Daemons play in a very unique way, just like how Wood Elves operated completely differently from everyone else in 7th. Tau would be easier to cope with, but you'll have to make do with overpointed stuff stemming from old codex syndrome.

 

[untitled_musketeer]

Hell, if you're starting out why not go for the Dark Eldar since they're just being released. I've got the new WD and they are mind-blowingly stunning. Loads of conversion opportunities and the potential to paint tattoos, glowing eyes and make up all in one army. It can't be bad!

 

[Danceman]

Dark Eldar, while unforgivable, was my first true 40k army. Initially played IG but I had like 3 battles and then a year passed without any 40k at all. Sure, it was tough at first but it was oh so satisfying when I started to win. I haven't had the chance to look at the new codex it appears to be very similiar yet quite different.
The notorious sniper squad is gone(as you can only have one heavy weapon per warrior squad now) and other subtle changes. Even so be prepared to lose big a few times if you choose DE... But who knows? Perhaps DE fits like a glove for the get-go. My learning curve wasn't as steep as I was lead to believe it would be.
Just saying, there is a good side to choosing a "vet army". I did the same with Dark Elves back when they still had their amazingly weak army book. Learnt a lot by it.

Dark Eldar remain to this day my only army(besides a small army, well warband, of CSM at like 750pts). While I haven't played as much lately as the dex got pretty outdated I still enjoy playing it. The new dex looks very promising and seem to stay very close to the old dex while feeling 'fresh'. Then again, I am rather biased here I think.

Though out of the three, I'd still go with Dark Eldar. Daemons way of deploying and all the randomness rubs me the wrong way though the Daemonhunters have a certain degree of a appeal. I don't mind Smurfs at all, you play what you like and that's that. Daemonhunters invoke images of a futuristic knight in a more striking sense than other marines. If I would will more time and money into existence I would probably do an army of them myself but for now Dark Eldar and whatever fantasy project my brain decides I am going to do will have to suffice

 

[Questioner]

I started with necrons. As a result, I am almost unstoppable with them...


I recommend seeing if you can have a look at the codexes, and see which army takes your fancy... one look at Necron codex and I was hooked!

 

[Danceman]

That's the way to do it really. Take what you like, don't think of the power or how common it is. You're going to spend plenty of money and time on it after all.

 

[Bishop]

I'd suggest that you make a short list of armies with models/background that you like and make a decision from that list.

For conversions, not much can complete with Chaos.. maybe Orks.

Small elite armies are around, though DH rules are VERY out of date! So, I'd stay away from them...

Some armies CAN be small and elite... well certain armies do this well, some take a bit of work, and others can not do this at all!

Are there any models/backgrounds/rules that stand out as something that you like? Personally, I get the most enjoyment from both of my Eldar/Dark Eldar armies. They can play very differently from each other.

 

[Dogmar]

Thank you for the suggestions so far.

I'll make a list of the things I like about certain 40k armies in order to reply to everything you said:

1.Dark Eldar: The new models are just amazing. From the point I've seen them I was in love with them especially the Mandrakes, which I'll probably get hold of anyways, regardless of if I start them or not. The only thing I dislike about the new sculpts is that some of the female models look too muscular to me. I like my women more female shaped - slim with curves . Well, enough of that. Fluff wise they're also very appealing as they are technologically advanced and have somewhat of a vampiric feeling, seeing that they eat souls of other beings to survive (if I got that right at least).
In game terms, they hit hard and are fast and tactically challenging, which I think is good and fits my playstyle well. My first fantasy army was WE, so I'm used to steep learning curves and I am in love with the guerilla playstyle. I like setting up traps and winning through outplaying my opponent, not just pointing at him with my laser guns and watch everything die. Good points for DE

2.Eldar: Well, they seem similar to DE, just that they're not that evil. I prefer some of the sculpts over the DE (their females, of which there are admittedly few, look less masculin). Also their tanks are nice. I don't know about the playstyle though. They seem more of a shooty army, am I right here? I'm fine with that, it's just that eldar is the most played race behind space marines where I play, so I don't really want them, except it shows they're totally awesome.

3. Daemon Hunters: Fluff wise they are cool and I like the idea of super elite knights forming a small, nearly unbeatable force against evil. Somekind of warband-ish. I agree though that it's probably better to wait for a new dex, as their current rules are outdated. They're pretty much out of the decision.

4. Daemons: Cool models, pretty much the same as in fantasy. I don't know about their playstyle - what is it like? If you compare it to WE in fantasy it might be appealing. I'm afraid though as they don't seem to have any shooting weapons they might be not ideal to learn the game.

5.Tau: Have some cool models, especially the Ghost teams and tanks. Their big "battle suit" things look very static though and are too "boxy" (by that I mean they consist of mostly rectangular shapes, which is boring - maybe conversion options here). Regarding playstyle it's an almost pure shooting army, which is very mobile. I like that. I don't want to play gunline though, as I like to have control of the flow of battle and thus setting up traps is what I like. Again they look nice, except for the warsuits or whatever they're called in the English version.

6.Nids:Offers a LOT of conversion options and generally looks cool. They rely on big numbers and hive synapses though, which I think limits the tactical options a little and gets expensive money-wise fast. Also I'm not too enthusiastic in horde armies.

All other armies are pretty much a no-go for me. For example I think IG looks too much like toy soldiers of the 21st century, which I completely dislike.

What do you think about this? Of course the new DE codex has yet to come out so noone can tell about good builds and their playstyle with absolute certainity.

Feel free to discuss,

Dogmar

 

[Bishop]

Well.. based on your list, it looks like DE/Eldar are the primary candidates.

I find that my DE army is generally more shooty, at least more reliable in the shooting phase, then my CWE list. Though it too can be assault focus if required.

Eldar CAN be a shooty army, though they can very much be an assault/balanced army as well. Here's my 2k Eldar army list that I frequently use. I find that it's a balanced list with good assault and short range elements. I do find it sometimes lacking in long range/AT weapons... but that's a common problem for CWE.

I'd discount DH for the age reason.

I don't know anyone that plays Daemons in 40k... there's probably a reason for that

Personally, I find Tau are just high-tech IG. I tried them for a few months, even had most of an army... I just couldn't get into the play-style required for them.

Nids. I could see myself playing Nids, though I have enough 40k armies already.

 

[Danceman]

Dark Eldar are getting quite a few CC units this time around; Wyches, Elite Wyches(proper name unknown), Harlequins, Incubi(elite choice now) and Mandrakes(though more a hybrid). Then the Hellions and Reavers(with the former being more Wych-like). Not sure on what the Kabalite Trueborn unit will be or what weapon options/upgrades they have. Dark Eldar are also getting a more varied selection of Warp Beasts and as for heavy fighters they're getting two types of Taloi and two types of Grotesques(though the smaller type is an elite choice).

Also, let's not forget the Pain Points which add one ability per squad a DE squad wipes out. They stack;
In order;
1. Feel no pain
2. Furious Charge
3. Fearless.

These certainly will help out the CC element of a DE army.

The change to warriors reflects these changes as you only can pick one heavy weapons option for them now. No more "Sniper Squads"(10 warriors with 2 dark lances). Overall it looks like Dark Eldar is getting a better internal balance as do many codics released lately.

Though I dig Eldar and Dark Eldar both and have borrowed a friends Eldar more than once. Fun armies both but from your comments, especially the last post, I think Dark Eldar is your best choice. Other than I think they'll suit your style, loving the minis certainly makes collecting them more fun.

 

[Sanai]

The tau battlesuits are incredibly convertable, and the forgeworld variants are much sleeker if you dont like the boxyness of the suits. They also have some really scary weaponry and tactics available to them and are great at killing space marines (Wait to you see the airburst frag launcher and the range on their pulse rifles) They are also very tactically dynamic, with lots of highly mobile (but a little fragile, but fragile is fun) long ranged hard hitting elements, coupled with kroot for disrupting the enemies advance. The customisability of their battlesuits can keep an army lister thinking for hours on their own. I have played Blood Angels and Imperial guard in small points games against my little brother many times, and we always had fun. They are also mostly plastic and easy to convert (mostly into more and more dynamic poses, particularly the battlesuits which have lots of ball joints and easily reposable legs)

The nids dont have to be a horde army, as they have big expensive gribblies as well, and they arent tactically stale as far as I see, with so many different options on so many different units.

Dark Eldar are ridiculously cool looking with the new models, and have always been a fun army to play with. Also, their women dont look masculine, they just look tough. Sigh, the world we live in today were people expect women to be wafer thin and holding a handbag.

Daemon Hunters have been popular for a while, but the games I have seen with them in (and the games I have played against them) have been fairly boring, as the army seems to be a weird mix of gimmicks and suped up versions of other armies units, which detracts from its tactical character. I have played against this army with my Imperial Guard and well... he had land raiders and grey knight terminators as the main part of his force, with token amounts of Storm troopers and a single squad of normal grey knights, plus an inquisitor or two and some chimeras for his stormtroopers, so it played pretty much like a space marine army with some weaker troops but stronger power armoured troops. It was a boring one sided game.

Daemons have ridiculously cool models, and have had a reputation for being powerful. They dont play like any other army in 40k, due to their unique deployment rules, which can really mess with peoples plans. I have not played against them before.

Eldar are slightly less poncy than their high elvish counterparts, and have a reputation for being tricky to play. To me they seem to be one of the more generic looking armies in 40k (after the hordes of space marines) I have never played against eldar.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Since the OP is used to a steeper than usual learning curve then why not DE?They have the bonus of the awesome new minis being released, pretty much all of which look great to me.

That aside, Tau don't have to be a gunline. In fact, both their fluff and their army leans more towards a fire and maneuver army. Don't confuse them for 'just high tech IG' as Bishop said, if you try to play them as such you will just keep on losing especially when you go up against IG who will of course beat you at their own game. That aside, as Sanai mentioned their battlesuits are easy to convert too, if you're into that kind of thing.

Eldar are a specialist army where most of your units perform one role to the exclusion of all else, so it requires you to be able to use them in tandem with each other. That aside, they aren't as unforgiving as Dark Eldar as they at least have some decent armor here and there, but their codex is starting to show its age. Eldar models are unfortunately difficult to convert(with the exception of the Wraithlord) as most of them are still metal. Their aesthetic lends themselves to exotic color schemes, much more so than Space Marines I find, so this is good if you're a painter who likes to experiment.

Daemons may look intimidating but I find they are too random to really be very powerful. It's not just the initial deep strike scatter, there's also having to split your army into 2 halves and having to roll a 3+ to get your desired half in first, else the Dark Gods decide otherwise and send in the other half. I have played a fair number of rounds against them with my Eldar and have yet to lose to them, and Daemons in particularly make me wonder whether I really beat the other guy or his own dice did.

 

[Dogmar]

Thanks for the constructive replies so far.

@Sanai: I don't want my women paper thin or especially skinny, i just like them to have actual female curves instead of a huge biceps. Still, I don't think this is the right place to discuss this kind of preferences.

On topic:
I didn't know daemons have complete random deployment. That kinda ruins them for me as it is hard to develop any battle plans without even knowing which of your units are going to arrive first. If I ever start them it's gonna be in fantasy then.

This limits us to Tau and both kinds of Eldar to think about. All three sound very intriguing and I honestly can't say which one's my favourite so far. I thought Eldar were the shooty guys while DE are the CC-monsters. Since you proved me wrong and both is possible they are both valid choices. It would be interesting to see what units are available for both armies and compare them. I'd like my army to be semi competetive and still fluffy. I can start building thematic armies as soon as I'm used to the game.

Tau on the other hand seem interesting as they have a lot of heavy weapons and are not as static as I thought, so they might be fine too. With convertable powersuits that look less boxy. The tanks are cool as well and I read something about target markers, that offer some nice tactical opportunities.

That's the gaming aspect.

On the modelling side: I'm not so aware of the 40k fluff except for the "round table" thing on GWs website about DE (which sounds cool). So which of the three would offer cool thematic armies or conversion opportunities. I'm open minded for any kind of suggestion here. The army I put a lot of time and money into is supposed to look awesome after all.

 

[Tharkad]

On the modelling side: I'm not so aware of the 40k fluff except for the "round table" thing on GWs website about DE (which sounds cool). So which of the three would offer cool thematic armies or conversion opportunities. I'm open minded for any kind of suggestion here. The army I put a lot of time and money into is supposed to look awesome after all.

I would suggest you buy the BRB or borrow one and give it a read. The fluff has been around for 25+ years so will be hard to gather in one place. If you are interested in the fluff of armies I would suggest getting copies of your top listed codexs and giving them a read.

For small "elite" armies any codex can be used just depends on how you choose to play. Even though you dismissed SM they are the benchmark for small elite armies.

From a modeling point: DE, Orks and Chaos offer the best choices.
Eldar can be converted but majority of the Eldar line are metal and are abit of a pain to convert.

 

[Troll]

Daemons can be an elite army, but do better with a nid tactics. Have as many smaller hitting guys as possible, and some larger guys to take on what the smaller guys will have problems with.

The hard part with deamons is that they are either a win big or lose big army. Only half your army is facing an entire army for the first turn, and the rest show up by reserves. You never fully know which group will start and when the reserves will show up, so you have to make the best of what you have and try to split your army as even as possible.

Fortunately with the plastic lesser deamons and the dp, it has gotten a lot better to build, but still waiting for plastic plauge bearers...

 

[Trevy the Great]

Necrons.
Why Necrons? Why should anyone play Necrons?
Because they are the penultimate beginner's army. Duh.

Forgiving on the table? Check.
Play to all phases of the game? Well, they are no Space Marines, but check.
Easy to paint/model? Check.
Requires a player to learn strategy? Check.
Not a confusing or overwhelming amount of options? Check

Seriously, look to further than Necrons.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Whilst I will receive a hail of abuse here, if you truly want a beginners army then I can only recommend the "smurfs" as you call them. They are just that; easy to pick up and play with, not a stupid amount of models to paint, have plenty of kits and always a nice, up-to-date codex, (at the behest of others) and have nice fluff too.

When I first started playing WH40K, I was young, and simply bought the starter-set. 5 Space Marines and some paints. To start with I was the person who you all despair about, crying "eergh spass mahreens" etc. with such crude vehemence. Now, however, I love their fluff. I love the feel of the army, (and GW loves them too) so you'll never feel like chopped meat (like the poor Necrons) without a codex for over a decade.

Shout at me all you like. But Space Marines are the perfect army for a beginner. They suit the majority, so if you start throwing comments like "but I like hordes and I'm a beginner" I will simply show you the popularity of Space Marines, and ask you if you really think your thoughts are popular throughout the majority of players, both the veterans and as the green as grass. Space Marines have everything for every style of play.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me, just giving the SM a bit of positivity in a thread which has, so far, depicted them as utter crap.

 

[Dogmar]

Count Darvaleth: I think you got me (and the others) wrong here. Noone said, that SM are bad or unflexible. In fact they are one of the best and most up to date armies out there. And they have a lot of options to suit every playstyle. I was just saying that everyone has them. Also I don't like the models at all. This is why they're out for me, not because I think they're "bad".

On topic: While I see that Necrons have some cool models and the resurrecting stuff is nice, they're very outdated and don't have the big variety of options other armies offer. I'll certainly take a look at them but for now it looks like Tau or one of the Eldar races will get the cake. One guy at the local store already agreed that he'll do some testing games with me after Christmas. I have to wait with 40k until then anyways, because I'm kinda low on money at the moment.

Do you guys have other cool army theme ideas? I was thinking about an all flying/antigrav DE or a ghost battlesuit heavy tau force. I've yet to figure out anything for CWE.

 

[Danceman]

Phil mentioned in a podcast that you can field a 100% skimmer/flyer army and it is FAST. A ravager can fire all weapons at cruising speed and get fairly cheap upgrades to re-roll to hit and a 5+ invul save.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Count Darvaleth: ... On topic:

He he. I feel like a rambling old madman.


But yes, I do agree; I was in a rather defensive mindset for my post, and I see now it was rather overly critical... but I was always sure that whatever reason you had for not liking the SM was perfectly fine. I just wanted to give the poor fellas some street rep. :tongue:

If you're thinking of going for Eldar sort of style, I'd recommend the non-dark Eldar. They have some uber-hard stuff at their disposal.

How about a S10, T8 monstrous creature with 3 wounds? Boltguns cannot wound it, so basic SM weaponry does NOTHING. And even then you have a 3+ armour save.

Howling Banshees. Pretty cheap. Power weapons and pistols mean 3A on the charge, and the ability to give them counter-attack (yes!) means you'll pretty much always get that. And you're I10 in round 1 of combat, regardless of modifiers. Their only weakness is S3....

....well, how about casting Doom on the unit the banshees are assaulting with your Farseer (who's in a unit of 10 dire avengers with an exarch with bladestorm.... assault 3 weapons, you say? SO what if I can't fire next turn. It's sick!) and then, the banshees are horrible.

I have a 750pts list which includes all of the above and more. And, to be honest, there's about 100 of those points which are on probation (warp spiders) so you could even field it at 650pts. The extra units are 10 guardians (bad some may say. BUT...) they have a brightlance weapon platform. AT? Sorted. Sit at the back, hold an objective, snipe...

I could go on praising the Eldar for ages. They have everything... even the perfect anti-space marine weapons! Dark Reapers have heavy 2, S5 AP3 weapons, with 36" range. How sick is that?! Also, the exarch can be given a weapon which shoots 2 small blasts, at S4 but still AP3. He can then be given an upgrade which allows him to shoot 3 times instead of twice! So, that's 3, S4, AP3 blasts. From just the first man! Perfect for killing SM, and other 3+ armour units.

Dear god, the last paragraph was supposed to be summing up. Instead it turned into another praise-fest. But then the Eldar have so much.... whole units armed with meltaguns! Stick 'em in a transport, zoom, out, tank = dead, in, zoom, tank kill etc... but anyway, these are only SOME awesome things about Eldar.

And you can even have a big unit of psykers on jetbikes, with a farseer leading them! Gaah!

 

[Trevy the Great]

Eldar's weakness, however, are expensive troops with not a great deal of survivability. If I were starting a new game and didn't know all of the sneaker maneuvers and mechanics yet I wouldn't want to be taken out by a player with decent firepower like a broken twig in a stiff breeze.

 

[Danceman]

And of course that they're not Dark Eldar. Their biggest weakness, I think.

As for themes though, my DE are largely a Kabalite force, meaning no wyches or similiar units. It was able to rain down an ungodly amount of fire and thanks to the dracons/sybarites they could engage in combat if need be. The Agoniser is pretty much the best weapon an Eldar warrior can have. Power weapon that negates the number one weakness of Eldar CC units, namely, S3. Not sure if the agoniser will keep these rules though.

It is also worth noting that a squad of Incubi fits perfectly into a Kabalite army as well as they are the merc guards of the DE aristocracy. The theme I am going for is once more a Kabalite theme. DE warrior squads, Kabalite trueborn squads(same as warriors but with superior stats and weapon/wargear upgrades), Incubi and of course lots and lots of Raiders and Ravagers.

At the same time I am going for a seperate Wych Cult army. Different colours and no strings to my kabal other than it might call for their services for a suitable payment. That is the beauty of DE. You can include everything and it will never become 'unfluffy'. The deals, allignments are evershifting. As long as you keep the kabalite unifed and seperated from the wych cult squads. Same goes for the haemonculi covens and incubi and mandrake units should probably reflect their order/clan.

In my experience DE armies who makes these distinctions between the different branches look much better on the tabletop. Adds to the DE character.

 

[Dogmar]

C. Darvaleth: Sorry, I didn't want you to feel old :tongue: .

On topic:
To sum my knowledge of the 40k rules up: power weapons ignore armor, you can get a 4+ cover save if behind cover, hovering things are basically ethereal as per movement rules, except they need to take dangerous terrain tests, AP means the value of armor ignored by the weapon, so AP1 is best, P6 is worst.

Or even shorter: I have few to no idea of the rules.

Still the things about the eldar sound very cool, although I don't really understand them. Comparing the stats to warhammer it seems theres a lot of high strength weapons out there as well as a lot of high armor (vehicles / power armor) - then S3 seems very... weak ... to me.

If I were to build a eldar force I'd definitely include a runeseer (who doesn't like magicians?!) and harlquins (because they're cool). The basic tactical approach would then be to shoot the enemy up while he chases you and then mop up the remainings of his troops in the last 2 rounds in CC which should then not be a problem any more.

With DE I'd like to go for a similar approach. That means either a kabalite force like Danceman plays it (don't know about the available options in the new dex though) or something along the lines of this: All flying army with kabalite warriors in transport vehicles, 1-2 tanks with 3 heavy weapons (not sure if they carry troops), archon with incubi-retinue, wyches (in transports), jetbikes ('cause they're cool, regardless the rules). General idea: use heavy weaponry to crack the can (transport/tank) and then kill whatever comes out with either more shooting or a focused CC phase - hit and run pretty much.

I'm surprised noone praises Tau, are they outdated as well or simply not as flexible or else?

Thanks for the insight so far, 40k sounds better than I thought it would,

Dogmar

 

[Danceman]

That is the DE way. Hit hard, hit fast and most importantly hit first. While we lack tanks we've got the Ravager gunships. Anyone who've ever fielded a tank knows the damage these can cause and with the new codex they have gotten better(upgrades and even faster!). Speed is our armour. Once in combat we got a big bag of dirty tricks in store for the opponents squads. Dark Eldar units can actually get stronger as the game progresses(pain points) so the order if which you soften up units present some interesting options... I mean a squad of Incubi with feel no pain and furious charge(ouch...).

Though as I said, both Eldar and Dark Eldar have their tricks and exciting armies in their own ways.

I generally don't praise any army other than these two, haven't found any other army in 40k which I enjoy nearly as much.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

The Tau codex is getting old but it's still doing OK in the meantime. One of their key advantages IMO is their ability to deny opponents cover saves through the use of something called markerlights, a type of wargear speicifc to them. As you might be able to tell, this is a big advantage in 5ed where cover is so easily obtained.

Unlike many people who play or played Tau I actually used Stealth Suits quite a bit, and the thing about them is that they have this 'sweet spot' to hang out at. To use them well you must be able to judge and/or guess-timate this spot, so that they will be able to keep pumping out shots while making maximum use of their stealth fields to prevent opponents from seeing them.

Harlequins are awesome but also difficult to use. Unlike the assault Aspects, they do well against all target types except Walkers, however they drop like flies to shooting. They have an even more annoying version of the Tau stealth field that prevents anything at all from directly targeting them from more than bolter range(even barrage weapons), so you must make use of this to make sure they do not die pointlessly.

@Danceman: I've seen a preview copy of the DE codex in stores and you'll be pleased to know the agonizer stays the same. However, disintegrators are going to become the DE version of the CWE starcannon(AKA: red headed stepchild, useless weapon, etc).