40k beginner army

[Count Darvaleth]

Ok, when I went mad about using Doom, it means you get re-rolls to wound. So, you're unit strikes first, has 3 attacks each, ignores armour, and re-rolls failed wounds. Basically, it's absolutely deadly.

Also, the Bladestorm thing; Assault 2 (assault 3 when using bladestorm, but no shooting the turn after) weapons, at S4 and AP5. Basically, It means each person in the unit fires 2 shots each (3 with bladestorm) AND can still assault perfectly, and can fire a full 18" regardless of movement. That's awesome!

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Ok, when I went mad about using Doom, it means you get re-rolls to wound. So, you're unit strikes first, has 3 attacks each, ignores armour, and re-rolls failed wounds. Basically, it's absolutely deadly.

Also, the Bladestorm thing; Assault 2 (assault 3 when using bladestorm, but no shooting the turn after) weapons, at S4 and AP5. Basically, It means each person in the unit fires 2 shots each (3 with bladestorm) AND can still assault perfectly, and can fire a full 18" regardless of movement. That's awesome!

As a 40k player who currently uses Eldar as his main army I feel I must provide a reality check to counterbalance this exuberant young lad quoted above...

Doom is a psychic power for the Farseer and it is indeed a great boon to have. A well placed Doom makes it so much easier to execute schwerpunkt and will continue to serve well in 2v2 or even Apocalypse games. Also, Eldar pack the best psychic defense in the game, the Runes of Warding. No other psychic defense out there has infinite range, reduces a Ld 10 psyker's chance of passing to about 50/50 and raises his chance of popping his own skull to 40%.

On the other hand, the codex is starting to show its age. 3 power weapon attacks or 3 S4 AP5 shot per pax will only get you so far, even with Doom. Eldar are fluff-wise the most powerful race in psychic terms, but you certainly can't tell if you compare our psychic powers to the ones you get in the spanking new SMurf codices. Our troops are as frail as ever, many things are now waaay overpriced. Also, a few units have been degraded from meh to downright useless in the change to 5ed(I'm looking at you, Swooping Hawks and Support Weapon Batteries). The Dark Reapers our eager young friend touted have been neutered by the availability of cover in 5ed. They are now simply a delivery system for the Dark Reaper Exarch with Tempest Missile Launcher and not Fast Shot but Crack Shot. This combination allows you to fire 2 long range indirect fire S4 AP3 small blasts that most importantly may re-roll to wound and ignore cover saves. Even used in this manner they are not worth the Heavy Support slot any more.

PS: I apologize if I'm overloading you with details, but I felt compelled to tell you that things are not as rosy as Darvy Jones is portraying. Eldar have things going for them, but many against as well. Add one optimist with one doom-and-gloom guy and you get a balanced viewpoint

 

[Danceman]

@Danceman: I've seen a preview copy of the DE codex in stores and you'll be pleased to know the agonizer stays the same. However, disintegrators are going to become the DE version of the CWE starcannon(AKA: red headed stepchild, useless weapon, etc).

Ah, well. Suppose we can't get everything. Least we got to keep my favourite weapon. Infinitely useful on sybarite and succubi. Taken down models far greater in size, strength and toughness thanks to this wonderful weapon. Also, ALWAYS put combat drugs on your Archons/Archites(wych HQ but might have gotten a new name in the new dex).

Should suit your needs as well, Dogmar. Zoom in guns blazing and mop up. Soften up the big stuff and finish off the last few wounds with Agonisers.
Remember, our splinter weapons are poisoned so we'll wound anything on 4+(I bet tyranid players like that a lot :lol: ).

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Ok, ok. Give a slightly less panglossian side to Eldar (I bet you don't know what panglossian means ) but then you had to call me Darvy Jones.

A step too far, my friend. :grave:

I will accept that Swooping Hawks are perhaps the most useless units in the game, and support platforms are simply laughable; but you still cannot factor out Eldar strengths. Also, how are they overly expensive? A unit of 5 high WS, power-wep toting models with 3 attacks on the charge (and counter-attack) and striking first for under 100pts! How is that at all expensive? They could easily chop their way through whole units of SM (given Doom) without much fuss.

But that's the point of Eldar. They're greater than the sum of their parts. If you don't take a Farseer, you're utterly screwed.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Ok, ok. Give a slightly less panglossian side to Eldar (I bet you don't know what panglossian means ) but then you had to call me Darvy Jones.

A step too far, my friend. :grave:

I will accept that Swooping Hawks are perhaps the most useless units in the game, and support platforms are simply laughable; but you still cannot factor out Eldar strengths. Also, how are they overly expensive? A unit of 5 high WS, power-wep toting models with 3 attacks on the charge (and counter-attack) and striking first for under 100pts! How is that at all expensive? They could easily chop their way through whole units of SM (given Doom) without much fuss.

But that's the point of Eldar. They're greater than the sum of their parts. If you don't take a Farseer, you're utterly screwed.

I may have to stop calling you young man, clearly your eyesight is like an old man's . I said 'Many things are overpriced' but I never said Banshees are one of them. Look at IG Vendettas, now back to my Wave Serpents, and back to them, and back to me. Sadly, Serpents aren't Vendettas. Ok I should stop with the meme now(cookie if you got the reference), but I meant that example seriously. You want a better one, look at our Vypers and compare them to Land Speeders. The Vyper is inferior in every respect and yet costs more. Weapons options, unit choices, I could go on but I think I've gotten my point across.

BTW, Banshees' WS isn't high. In 40k WS4 is merely average.The girls are still worth taking though.

SILVERFISH HANDCATCH!

 

[Dogmar]

Hmmmm, I'm really torn between Eldar and Dark Eldar now. The new rules sound fancy although I have no idea how good or bad they really are. With new models on the way to the stores the DE of course have a slight advantage, as the newer plastic kits look brilliant altogether and offer easy conversion opportunities. Also you could go for many different themes with them from what I can see now. You either have a shooting heavy kabalite force, a wychcult force, a haemonculus force with a lot of grotesquen and beastmasters (and whatever the other units are called) or a mix of these three.

Still Eldar look nice too. From your telling they have a few very hard hitting units to tear anything they touch apart. Also I've recently seen a game where a unit of Infantrymen with heavy weapons (fire dragons?) shot the enemy tanks to pieces before they could do something useful. I don't know too much about their fluff but there's certainly also a lot of options for a thematic army, aside from the competetive builds. You could go heavy on walkers or a special aspect warrior... is all flying/in transport possible for them?!

@sweeney todd: I dont get the reference so no cookie for me . I don't know about their things being overpriced, I can't really compare. Do you think the Eldar army is able to build an all-comers force? From what I've read you can tailor your units to do pretty much anything. But what's good against one is not necessarily good against the other. As all their units are specialists, isn't there a conflict?

@Danceman: I'd be happy to have a little more insight on the troop options available. If I choose DE I'd probably go for a shooting heavy kabalite force with some heavy hitters in CC to mop up the rest anyway, but it's good to know the options .

Cheers guys and thanks for the great input.

 

[Danceman]

@Danceman: I'd be happy to have a little more insight on the troop options available. If I choose DE I'd probably go for a shooting heavy kabalite force with some heavy hitters in CC to mop up the rest anyway, but it's good to know the options .

Kabalite Warriors; Always make on a sybarite. As you can deploy a good amount of firepower the excellent initiative actually means they might kill some in combat. This is also why the sybarite is so important. I've had warrior squads been reduced to very few in number but in the end been able to put down the hurt. The splinter cannon is a nice addition as it is Heavy 6 or Assault 4 if moving. Blasters have an increased range as well(18" now I believe). It might actually be a good idea to field 20 of them with 2 splinter cannons and 2 Blasters(not sure what the other alternative is).

Wyches; Needs to go into hand to hand. 6+ save is not much to be proud of and if caught in the open they're going die fast, very fast. However, once in combat they are a joy to watch. Very tough due to the 4++ dodge save and they get combat drugs and special weapons.

Then it comes down to managing Pain Points. Do you use firepower to kill off units, or just soften them up for the wyches to wipe out? Even just a single pain point increases the survivability of a squad as they gain the Feel No Pain special rule. 2nd pain point makes DE units much deadlier on the charge. I feel this will make a huge difference if you learn to use it well.

The most interesting CC unit though remains to the Incubi. They will tear through anything with ruthless effeciency. The squad leader have the ability to make the unit gain attack for each 6 when rolling to hit, this not just the initial rolls to hit but also applies for the attacks generated in this fashion. So a unit of 5+Leader charging a SMurf unit you'll be looking at 15 S4 power weapon attacks at WS4 and 4 attacks with WS5(or 4 S6 or 6 S4 attacks if you opt for his special weapon). The fact you don't have to pick an archon to field them is a massive bonus as your archon should help to tip the balance of combat elsewhere. They're also I5... I expect such a unit would land around 150-160 points though + the raider making it over 200 points but what a unit it is. A 3+ AS not common among the Eldar.
As for Howling Banshees, well, let your wyches deal with those as their power weapons will count for naught VS their 4++ save. :devil2:

Then there are Mandrakes and Kabalite trueborn, as well as the elite wych unit. The haemonculi coven units too(grotesques, wracks, 2 taloi skimmer dreadnoughts). I can't speak for these units performance yet though.

Reavers looks very interesting as well with their drive-by attacks. BUT I find the hellions more interesting with their snatch'n'grab attack which means you can actually tear an Idenpendant character from a unit... I don't care which IC it is fighting a unit of hellions on its own isn't going to be pleasant. All the while the unit the IC was apart of his charged or shot to pieces in a suitably dramatic way. I imagine this would be a very useful trick to deal with armies which have their ICs confer abilities onto the units they join. How practical this ends up becoming remains to be seen.

In short, DE are very much like Eldar and vice versa. Use the right tool for the job or the tool will break in your hands leaving you unarmed and probably very dead.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Hmmmm, I'm really torn between Eldar and Dark Eldar now. The new rules sound fancy although I have no idea how good or bad they really are. With new models on the way to the stores the DE of course have a slight advantage, as the newer plastic kits look brilliant altogether and offer easy conversion opportunities. Also you could go for many different themes with them from what I can see now. You either have a shooting heavy kabalite force, a wychcult force, a haemonculus force with a lot of grotesquen and beastmasters (and whatever the other units are called) or a mix of these three.

Still Eldar look nice too. From your telling they have a few very hard hitting units to tear anything they touch apart. Also I've recently seen a game where a unit of Infantrymen with heavy weapons (fire dragons?) shot the enemy tanks to pieces before they could do something useful. I don't know too much about their fluff but there's certainly also a lot of options for a thematic army, aside from the competetive builds. You could go heavy on walkers or a special aspect warrior... is all flying/in transport possible for them?!

@sweeney todd: I dont get the reference so no cookie for me . I don't know about their things being overpriced, I can't really compare. Do you think the Eldar army is able to build an all-comers force? From what I've read you can tailor your units to do pretty much anything. But what's good against one is not necessarily good against the other. As all their units are specialists, isn't there a conflict?

@Danceman: I'd be happy to have a little more insight on the troop options available. If I choose DE I'd probably go for a shooting heavy kabalite force with some heavy hitters in CC to mop up the rest anyway, but it's good to know the options .

Cheers guys and thanks for the great input.

"All-flying" is not only doable for both Eldar and Dark Eldar, it is very common. Other races' transports mostly move 12'' with a few being able to move 18''/24'', but for us transport skimmers that can move 24'' are standard issue.

It is certainly possible to make an all-comers force. There is no conflict so long as you build your list to cover all angles. I can't explain any further until you possess a CWE codex of your own. All your different specialists must be used together to overcome the weaknesses of the individual units. That's why, as said before, an Eldar army is one where the different elements work in tandem with each other.

 

[ChaosJedi666]

The easiest thing to do is to buy/borrow a copy of said army codex, then play a game with it. Use whatever mini's you have (whether they be Fantasy, 40K, whatever they just need to represent a unit), and go from there. If you like it, then go nuts with buying. But, you don't want to buy and paint a force, then play a couple of games and think "I should have gone for the other army..." My two cents anyway

 

[Dogmar]

One of the employees at the local store already agreed that I can borrow his DE army for a few testing games, which I find really nice of him. I still need to find someone who lets me test CWE though.

From a unit option point of view I don't see the CWE as versatile as the Dark Eldar. I've skimmed both codices (<-sp?) and the DE seem to have more options to specialize their army. Admittedly I've actually read most of the rules section of the DE codex while only briefly skimming a few of the CWE list entries, but the DE have 3 big fluff-factions if you want to call them like that. Kabals, Wyches and Haemonculi. All three exceel at one thing each. Kabals are more shooty, wyches wreak havoc in CC but are fragile and haemonculi stuff seems brutal and tough but not as fast. This makes for three cool thematic army options and for a big variety of combined lists. The CWE seem to be lacking the CC staying power and brutality. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong here

Cheers guys,

Dogmar

 

[Danceman]

Kabals, Wyches and Haemonculi. All three exceel at one thing each. Kabals are more shooty, wyches wreak havoc in CC but are fragile and haemonculi stuff seems brutal and tough but not as fast. This makes for three cool thematic army options and for a big variety of combined lists.

Precisely so! Allows you to create distinct colour schemes to represent each faction. As the models differ a fair bit in appearence this allow for a nice change of pace. Not only modelwise but also in how you paint the various units(CWE is also strong in this sense as each unit has their own flavour). The part I like about DE is that you can 3 unified themes within one army. Really ties the army together and represent the politics and reality of DE.

The CWE seem to be lacking the CC staying power and brutality.

Looking at both codics, I'd say, yes this is how it looks right now. Dark Eldar got more offence and staying power in CC. Incubi got their version of Power Armour, high initiative and Power weapons themselves, with a leader their killing power goes up by a lot and Wyches have 4++ save in CC, combat drugs and special weapons. For awhile now GW seem to adopted a policy of adding more special rules and character to their releases. Doesn't mean CWE are a weak army and on the flipside of things it is safe to assume they will get the same treatment once the their codex once again ends up on the schedule.

 

[Bishop]

Well, the classic stance of "he with the newest codex wins" seems to be in effect. j/k

Actually, the DE doesn't appear too bad at first glance (from a power level stance anyways)... I have only recently skimmed it though.

I would agree that the CWE army is starting to show its age (I think it's 4 yrs old now).

The difference between CWE and most other armies is that you have to take "X" unit to fulfill "Y" role. With other armies you just take whatever unit and then insert appropriate weapons needed to fulfill "Y" role.

Most Eldar units do not have staying power in CC... if that's something that's important to you then I'd suggest DE over CWE. Between Wyches and Incubi you can have a decent amount of reasonable CC units.

On the other hand, CWE have (almost universally agreed upon) the best transport units in the entire game. They are expensive point-wise, but will very reliably get the Eldar units to their destination.

 

[Dogmar]

You're probably right bishop, but I normally don't want to go with the new release hype. Although the DE fit my preferred playstyle pretty well and with many unreleased choices offer great conversion opportunities. The possibility to wreak havoc in CC is cool of course, still I was heading for a shooty army. The only CC choices would probably be 1-2 units to catch lone survivors. So CWE and DE could serve the purpose.

What I like about DE is the possibility to unify them. A great / rich Archon could gather all kinds of troops around him, be it through physical superiority or due to some kind of political stuff. I don't see that possibility for CWE, because their elites are "aspect warriors", so they're all in separate clans or something. At least that's how I understand the fluff. Of course I'm not that familiar with it, but that was my basic understanding.

The Eldar tanks do look pretty cool, yes, but whats their advantage rules-wise?

 

[Danceman]

CWE tanks? They provide excellent cover once our dark lances have cut them in half! It is quite satisfying to watch a ravager zoom around a corner and fire three lances at a helpless tank. You can also kit it with a 5++ invul save and re-rolls to-hit will hit with 2 lances every time and 3 most of the time. I know I've mentioned this before... but it is brutal. Oh right, did I mention it can more 12" and still fire ALL weapons... Oh, I did... Hm, I just love my skimmers.

Seriously now, they can be annoying to bring down with all their gadgets. Don't let the AV12 fool you. More importantly, if you can't bring them down your ravagers and/or raiders are in big trouble. Luckily, we have access to a lot of lances.

The important bit to understand is that you most likely will lose, and lose a lot, at first with DE. We have nothing in ways of armour bar a few units. Every mistake will cost you dearly. When you commit to an advance you will commit 100% because if you lose the initiative you will lose models, and quickly. This is however what makes DE so much fun. When the hammer strikes true is with a whole lot of force. The most fun I've had with DE is when facing CWE as the battles invariably is a slaughterhouse. The most memorable battle was between my Archon + Wyches VS a Farseer and Striking Scorpions. The battle between the Farseer and Archons lasted for several turns as no side managed to deal the final blow. Meanwhile, DE and Eldar around them fell by the score. Felt very much like a movie where the hero and arch villian faces off. It didn't make for a hollywood ending though as finally my Archon sunk his Agoniser into the Farseer ending him.
Even so the battle was a draw as the casualties on both sides were too heavy. A suitable ending to such an epic battle.

 

[Bishop]

Well, against other Eldar tech... Serpents don't have much advantage over the cheaper Raider. And now that Raiders can have a 5++ with Wargear is nice, it negates having your transports dropped on the first turn before they get a chance to move.

However, against other armies the Energy Field is very nice to fend off Meltaguns, Lascannons, Railguns, etc...

 

[Dogmar]

My first Fantasy army was wood elves, so I know about the losing thing. By now the fact that they're hard to use has helped me develop my tactics a lot.

I'll see if I can cope with the same thing in a whole new system soon in some testing games.

On the glass-cannon topic: I think it applies to 40k elves (Eldar) as well as to their fantasy versions. All Eldar races seem to have the great ability to move and shoot, which makes them harder to hit and them having a nice time outmaneuvering the enemy. The main issue that comes to my mind is the following: You can start behind cover - fine. You are fragile and thus must set the enemy under pressure fast which is why you move out of cover und try to "snipe" some important targets with the superior technology - fine. Once you move out of cover in order to do so you expose yourself to enemy fire (no LoS arc like in fantasy) - here is where the problems start. From my understanding of the rules (which is admittedly not much) you expose yourself to at the very least one turn of shooting which will make for a lot of dead Eldar. Then how do you approach units with ranged abilities with minimal casualties? Is there a possibilty to move - fire - move again to get behind cover or something? Otherwise you'd have to basically "win" the game by taking out all heavy hitters (i.e. tanks?!) in the first turn and then mop up the rest, because nothing can touch you.

Also, what does an Energy Field do?

I'm sorry that I can't go more in depth, because I've yet to ever play 40k. Still, that's the reason I started this thread and I'm thankful for your help this far.

Other armies would surely be easier to learn, but I have always had the attitude of choosing armies by look of models, fluff and playstyle, not easyness. And it happens that I like the apparently most difficult playstyle - guerilla war / an army that works together like a clockwork.

Cheers,

Dogmar

 

[Bishop]

I find that Eldar armies (CWE and DE) work well be being mobile. Transports are key to getting your fragile/specialist troops to the correct location. Skimmers that move fast are more difficult to take down (statiscally over time...anyone can get a luck shot). Also, remember that most Eldar are Fleet... thus they can move, run and assault if they forego shooting.

The CWE Energy Field removes bonus pen dice and slighty reduces the Str value of really high Str weapons (shooting only).

The majority of things in the game can NOT Move-Shoot-Move. This is a trait that is almost exclusive to the Tau race. The only exception I can think of the top of my head is Eldar Warp Spiders which can move again during the Assault (with a small risk).

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Actually I would disagree regarding Serpents being no more durable then Raiders. The thing is that while DE have enough Dark Lances to put some hurt on the Serpents, Raiders are vulnerable to virtually every weapon in the CWE arsenal, but on the other hand your splinter weapons aren't gonna do jack shit against our front armor. Also, CWE can pack plenty of high ROF S6 weaponry to knock out those open-topped AV10 Raiders with. Every slot type(Troops, FA, HS, ETC) can get S6 guns. Plus don't underestimate the durability of a Fortuned Serpent moving flat out.

Move-shoot-move(better known as jump-shoot-jump or JSJ for shoot) is indeed the domain of Tau battlesuits. It was orginally an Eldar mechanic but the people who designed Tau copied it over when they were made. Keep in mind that besides Warp Spiders, all Eldar Jetbikes(including DE ones) can move 6'' in the Assault Phase even if not charging so they can replicate this JSJ effect.

Regarding lack of staying power in CC, it's true though. The closest we get is a Fortuned Avenger squad with Exarch packing Shimmershield and Defend, but that requires a lot of coordinated investment and I still don't think they're as good as Wyches in that role.

As for unity, Eldar Aspect Warriors are not 'different clans'. Craftworld Eldar generally do not divide themselves amongst clan lines with the notable exception of Craftworld Saim-Hann. Craftworlders dedicate their lives to different 'Paths', and those on the Aspect Warrior paths are those who are dedicated to war in a certain form. When a Craftworld mobilizes for war, it is the Aspect Warriors who usually form the primary component of the warhost(in terms of being the real force behind the army). The Guardians are drafted from civilians and are there to bulk the army out and provide the numbers the Aspects would otherwise lack. The Aspects are obviously expected to lend their services to an Eldar army, why spend decades or even centuries training for war if you're going to avoid it?

 

[Sanai]

The way Tau work is thus
Fire warriors in devilfishes zoom forward in the devilfish, deploy from the devilfish so they are shielded from enemy reprisal by the devilfish, and rapid fire.
Battlesuits move in (or deep strike) fire their powerful weaponry (preferably with the upgrade that enables you to fire multiple weapons) then move away towards cover.

 

[waaanial00]

The most important thing to remember is the following:

You will lose you first round of games if you play people who are familiar with the system.
You will lose more games against people who are familiar with the system and their own army.
You will lose more games if they also know your army as well.

3 brilliant barriers to entry in each wargame and things you are likely already aware of given that you have played wargames before. So what can we do with such information?

Well the first thing to do is reduce the chances of being massively stomped by superior knowledge straight away by engaging in simple small games first to learn the core rules. Start at anywhere between 500 - 750 points and ensure that, you at least, pick the units you are most comfortable with the rules ie the ones which have the fewest. As much as you are wanting to stay away from Marines if you can get your hands of a 500 point marine army they are generally the best army to learn the core rules with because they are so vanilla and easy to understand (most of the rules being based around the humble Tactical marine as a middle point also means that they are very average feeling is a good thing).

Ok so once you have played a couple (3 is plenty) between 500 - 1000 points and experienced how the game handles you should then start to have a look at how your chosen army works within the gaming system. Again I am probably not telling you anything you dont already know. Important thing to concentrate on is that despite knowing the rules of the game and having a feeling for how your army works within them, as you gain experience you will apply tactics better. What this amounts to is the fact that you really cant make any true assessments about how you play army X until probably your 5th real game with it, less if you pick things up quicker, more if its an especially tricky army to succeed with (hello dark eldar Im looking at you with your Slannesh smile and wicked dagger).

The final thing which is generally worth saying to anyone is the double edged sword of playing someone who is familiar with your army. Playing someone with knowledge of what you should be doing and what you can do is both a great and a terrible thing. For one they can provide you with a crutch when it comes to the rules (assuming they are not an ass hat and lie to you that is) they can aid in your learning curve and be a great mentor to you in so many ways. However they will likely know what you are going to do about a turn before you do it, its really not difficult once you know the capabilities of your opponents army and the general positioning of his troops. Therefore you might find that the tactics you employ have less than spectacular effects than you might normally have, this might lead you to thinking that the army is less impressive than you thought it was or put in the back of your mind that certain tactics are no good.

Still this is all rather generalistic and probably something you already know, still I see people jumping between armies and wargames without remembering these key facets enough that they warrent repeating. 40K is a very different animal to Fantasy, neither less complex or easier/difficult. Some tactics can be carried across and generally having a toe in both pools will make you a better gamer overall.

Specifically Eldar are not built for protracted fights, Dark Eldar specifically. Cover plays a big part in things however less than you think it will in real games (not everything can reach out and touch you turn 1 or even 2) being mobile is a huge asset though it takes a while to figure out exactly how to use it properly (anyone who has tried a Space Marine Biker Army can tell you that, I try and fail it every now and again).

I have found the best way to look at 40K is in gaining local superiority, break the board down in your mind. Now the key to breaking the enemy with mobility is probably following the VC tactics, commit enough of your force in one or two places whilst limiting the exposure of those forces to counter attacks. Have a plan to be able to commit in zone 1 this turn then plan for 2 more zones to move to assuming the enemy will respond by trying to destroy you in zone 1 or defend another zone.

Most importantly if it looks like it will turn into a meat grinder then sacrifice to gain a better footing in subsequent turns.

Hope this rather top level analysis helps you out. Play and keep playing is the overall advice, 40K is more forgiving of bad decisions early in the game than Warhammer because of the power of shooting and the range of weapons. I have seen many games which looked like becoming a massacre in turn 2 which have become a draw in turn 6. The victory conditions are such that its not over till its over!

EDIT: Jebus look at the wall of text, sorry about that

 

[Dogmar]

Ok, replying to these should take a while, prepare for another wall of text.

First of all thank you for the substantial and constructive comments!

OK with the JSJ I see how Tau keep their guys out of harms way, but I don't see how Eldar/DE do that. Okay they're fast, but are they fast enough to outshoot the enemy in one round, because they have a higher range and then go all the distance towards them to strike in CC without giving them an opportunity to massacre them with shooting (wyches only sport a 6+ save outside of CC which is rather pointless)? Are there other ways to withstand firepower? That's what I'm most worried about, especially as I'm planning to go shooting heavy myself. I know they're fine in CC with the 4++ save and because they slice almost everything to pieces before it is able to strike back - go wood elves ... ehr... Eldar(be it dark or not)!

The insight on the Eldar fluff was pretty helpful, I see now that a combined list of various aspects can still be fluffy. I wouldn't want to distinguish the aspects that much and would probably unify their colour scheme. Just looks too ... poncy (<-vocab?) otherwise.

waaanial00: I've found your reply to be especially helpful. You put a lot of effort into writing this and the result proves that it was well worth it.
As you already mentioned I know the basic barriers in each wargame, I experienced them in fantasy and LotR myself. I see your point about the experience thing especially when you play against a vet with his own army. A friend of mine had to experience that scenario with me teaching him how to play WHFB - I was honest about all rules though .
Also it might be a good idea to play with an easy army first to get a good grasp over the rules, however I don't want to invest like 50-80 EUR in a force I will only play 3-5 games with before I decide for something else and that I won't enjoy playing. Maybe I can borrow some SM at the local store because, well, everyone has them. In terms of the time I need to practice the ability to learn fast and the choice of a hard to play army cancel each other out in my case - at least I hope so. Anyway it's a good idea to play the game, before deciding on what to buy - a whole new game system is a rather big investment after all.

On the tactics: The local superiority makes sense, although I've seen some people at the local store play "everything forward" and win. Guess they were lucky, as you have proven my guess, that said approach is a rather bad idea in just about any game system. In fantasy I play with this tactic with my woodies as well as with my VC. Have some supported heavy hitters while the rest is stuck in CC grinding re-raisable core (in case of VC) or outmaneuver the enemy and play seek and destroy with his units (woodies), although the latter has become more difficult in this edition, because of new rules and thus new army list compositions, but that topic does not belong here really. I like that both eldar races can play that way too. Like I mentioned before I want to win because of superior tactics and traps which require your army to work together rather than by throwing a horrendous amount of dice or being extremely lucky. What you mean is basically to focus on one small area and put all heavy hitters there to get their required job done quickly and then move away to another sector to do the same. The unoccupied sectors are either abandoned completely or held by durable troops or troops that are in cover so they're out of danger. The key is to strike precise and fast and to set up little traps with the units in the "unoccupied" sectors. Did I get that right?

Keep the comments coming, I really like where this is going.

Cheers guys,

Dogmar

 

[Sanai]

You do realise you don't have to win right?
I find losing to be just as entertaining when gaming in 40k as winning. You actually learn alot from losing as well.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

You do realise you don't have to win right?
I find losing to be just as entertaining when gaming in 40k as winning. You actually learn alot from losing as well.

HERESY!

But anyway, I'd just get a copy of the rulebook, head down to a GW, and play beginners sessions. Regularly, often, and you'll learn the rules fast enough.

 

[waaanial00]

You do realise you don't have to win right?
I find losing to be just as entertaining when gaming in 40k as winning. You actually learn alot from losing as well.

Actually this is a really good point and one I was discussing with a friend of mine who is practicing for the 40K GT at the moment. The first three games he played were all victories and he was really confident about them until he came up against a Witch Hunter army and got smashed.

After the game we agreed that the first three games taught him very little because of factors like appalling luck on the opponents behalf and a couple of really dodgy decisions on their behalf. In addition to this he didnt really appreciate the weaknesses of his tactics as they all succeeded and gave him the over optimistic view that they were good in all circumstances.

However they were all built around his core firebase being able to supply enough heavy weapon fire to debilitate the enemy, the game he lost he had them all all taken out in the first turn. He had no backup plan for what to do with the rest of his troops and as such just carried on with the only plan he had practiced, much to his demise.

In so he learned a massive lesson in planning on the fly and analysing the situation.

I prefer losing when I am learning the army, it sounds rather weird and all but there it is. I find people are more willing to talk about their tactics and how they approach taking me down when they win, this allows me to avoid said tactics in the future. Also I like to see how durable some units really are so do a few crazy and ill advised things when I am learning (like frontal charge a unit of 20 plague monks with my Varghulf - the Vargulf ended up destroying the unit as well )

Most importantly if you are going to play this game with a view to getting better, be as charming and friendly during the game as you can. Then try and have a bit of post game summary and discussion with the opponent. This is something new players seem to miss out on, the actual result matters very little in the grand scheme of things as its just a game (even a tournament game is just a bit of fun!), however if you want to get better find out what your opponent was thinking and planning as you were making moves. Without this feedback you are doomed to only understanding half of the game and will never be as good as you could be.

I promise to stop bricking up this forum with walls of text

@Dogmar -

What you mean is basically to focus on one small area and put all heavy hitters there to get their required job done quickly and then move away to another sector to do the same. The unoccupied sectors are either abandoned completely or held by durable troops or troops that are in cover so they're out of danger. The key is to strike precise and fast and to set up little traps with the units in the "unoccupied" sectors. Did I get that right?

Thats about the size of it. To put it another way you want to control your opponent by making them reactive rather than proactive. You make a move and they have to counter it in a very small and controlled manner. Theoretically (havent ever been able to make mobility lists work myself but I have seen them work) having a mobile and fast list makes that much easier assuming that you can survive the first turn without "having" to react to the enemy too much.

Its more difficult to trap an enemy which can move especially quickly because if they are smart and dont get too many units held in engagements of the enemies making, then they can simply cut losses and redeploy with ease to another location and threaten another part of the battle line.

So you use your mobility with purpose, you want to be thinking all the time about how the enemy will be forced to move because of where I go. If they dont move there what can I do immediately or in the near future? The funny thing about the DE is that they can very easily manipulate first turn charges however it may not be advisable to do so, you move into them, they move into you, your caught and cant move away, you die! I fear thats what a bunch of new codex migrants will be doing and then slating the new codex as rubbish because the units arent durable enough.

Still I have ranted enough, you have the basic understanding of what I am aiming for and I think any more theory will be counter productive until you have attempted to apply the basics.

I was suggesting borrowing another army by the way, I wasnt trying to suggest buying a small marine army just to learn the ropes.

 

[Dogmar]

You do realise you don't have to win right?
I find losing to be just as entertaining when gaming in 40k as winning. You actually learn alot from losing as well.

I do realise that, and I did before. Imagine how I started WHFB... I've won 1 out of five games or so. Still I'm very satisfied with my wood elf force as the big losses taught me what to do different the next time. And learning the hard way helped me improve my tactics to a high level. Imagine it like this: you learn to stand upright at 200% gravity and then are told that real gravity is only half of what you learned. You'll have a very easy time then. Of course to get vet-status I'd have to get years of experience, but that's basically how it should work out.

@waaanial00: What a massive wall of text again, but with very good content. That's the exact way I taught a friend of mine WHFB. He played a few games at the local store and won 2/3 I think. Then he played me and was very confident to win as well - needless to say he was quite disappointed when he didn't. After talking about the game a little he realized some of his mistakes though and tried to improve that. He has still much to learn, but he's getting better.
I expect my 40k experiences to be similar to that, regardless of the army I choose. The whole thing about a new game system is playing an army you like, because if you don't you'll lose motivation to paint and play with some time. So I'll see the point of learning the basics with SMurfs, but then I want to move on to something else, which will probably be Eldar/DE, because I like models, fluff and the basic idea of the playstyle. If that means I have to climb the steeper learning curve, that's it.

Dictating the flow of battle is exactly what I mean, it can be hard against certain, especially mobile opponents though, yes. Thanks a lot for the insight. What you suggested is what I'm going to do now. By the time I'm done with that the new codes hype for DE has probably died and I can decide freely which of the space elves I'm going to use.

By the way: has anyone had games with the new codex yet? I'd be curious to hear how the army works now.

Cheers

Dogmar