Abhorash: Just VC fanboy character!

[El Syf]

So I was browsing another forum the other day and stumbled upon a quite heated debate about Abhorash.
The original subjct was who could best Abhorash in single combat, but after a while this devolved into quite a few people slandering the poor chap. "He doesn't even have a model he can't be that good" and "VC players treat him like a god when he was just a standard vampire lord like vlad or the others".
So what are the thoughts of us VC fanboys?
Personally I haven't been able to get much info on him other then what has been in our army books over the years and a couple of the BL novels. (But lets face it to kill an "immense" red dragon on your own takes some doing.)

 

[Shareya]

He is a honor bound wierdo in the end and I don't think anyone is able to beat him when it comes to melee combat.
Think quite a few spell casters have a good chance against him but he probably has developed some fighting abilitiy/trikc/something to even hold his ground against them.

Still not sure why people bash him and bring the whole boardgame stat examples >.> Not everything is correctly represented there due to game balance.

 

[the hidden one]

Yeah man, sigmar is such a chump, he doesn't even have any rules.

 

[Lord Dakath]

Well, when I read the Nagash books there was a scene where one of the characters is about to die in the middle of battle and then people start screaming even louder and you see bodies (mostly body parts) flying through the air like some sort of shockwave was blasting in a straight line, turns out it was Abhorash going through people.

I do also know in old fluff that he kept testing himself to see if he could come across a worthy adversary and found some ancient red dragon and fought it for, I think, 3 days (I know it was at least 2) before he killed it, drank it's blood, and discovered that since he drank that dragon blood he no longer thirts for human blood. That's one of the reason all the Blood Dragons are trying to emulate him.

 

[Uziel]

Well, when I read the Nagash books there was a scene where one of the characters is about to die in the middle of battle and then people start screaming even louder and you see bodies (mostly body parts) flying through the air like some sort of shockwave was blasting in a straight line, turns out it was Abhorash going through people.

This is as far as I know, the only example of any Vampire being that good a fighter in any warhammer fluff, which too me does say a lot.
In some ways it is sad that we don't see rules for him, but then One could very well argue that the Red Fury +Quickblood +Magic Weapon +etc combination represents him very well in most respects.
Before anyone argues the point that this somehow represents "the normal vampire Lord" (which might also be a lvl 4 caster not forget), take the time to read the story of Vlad and consider things for a bit. Vlad was famous for his bad temper and rage, probably more so than any other named vampire, with the possible exception of Konrad. He has never had Red Fury in the rules, yet we are blessed withe the option of making these kind of dangerous psychopaths as standard, and we can make them "balanced" enough to heap wizard levels on them as well. Go figure.
Konrad however, has Red Fury, but then again, he was never a wizard.. Somehow, he didn't have the aptitude for it...

I really don't see a huge problem making rules for Abhorash. He is not tied to any particular magic items in any fluff that I can recall, so that leaves one way to keep him balanced, nor is he a wizard of any note, which also reduces his overall capabilities by a lot and keeps his points down. I'm considering him for the Bloodline Legacies Project in fact (which is why I have given the subject a bit of thought in the first place), and while he'll certainly be a force to recon with, he'll be far from invincible if I can get the balance right.
Hope we get to see more Blood Dragon special characters one day though, since they seem to be most people's favourite bloodline

 

[Lord Dakath]

Well one of the problems with making rules for Abhorash is that vampires get stronger as they get older, and he is one of the oldest vampires in existence, IIRC, the only one older then him is Neferata (I think that's the name). Who knows what kind of power he has now. If they made his rules to be true to fluff then his stat-line alone would be insane, like look at the cute little Bloodthirster type of crazy. Then you would have to take into account what kind of magic items he's collected along the way. Remember that this is the vampire who decided to make his whole unlife based around becoming the perfect warrior. It would be hard to make rules for him that would be balanced.

 

[El Syf]

I think his rules would/should be over the top. In the Neferata novel he kills a giant with little problem. You bring up a good point too; him and Neferata are the only surviving master vampires (that we know of)and he is cured of vampirism which somewhat outdoes her.

 

[Uziel]

Well one of the problems with making rules for Abhorash is that vampires get stronger as they get older, and he is one of the oldest vampires in existence, IIRC, the only one older then him is Neferata (I think that's the name). Who knows what kind of power he has now. If they made his rules to be true to fluff then his stat-line alone would be insane, like look at the cute little Bloodthirster type of crazy. Then you would have to take into account what kind of magic items he's collected along the way. Remember that this is the vampire who decided to make his whole unlife based around becoming the perfect warrior. It would be hard to make rules for him that would be balanced.

Yes, Vampires get stronger as they age, but this does not mean that they don't peak so to speak. I don't know how new you are to the game, but Neferata was a special character choice back in 5th ed, and she was pretty much your average Vampire Lord from a stat perspective.

There isn't really that much realistic room for making a stat-line for Abhorash that takes him that close to being a Bloothrister either. WS 10 would be unquestionable offcourse, but Movement, Strength, Toughness, Wounds and LD would be very hard to justify an increase for, leaving Attacks and Initiative to work on.
One can't just throw stat increases at someone limited to a human-sized body to justify his awesomeness. One needs a certain stature etc to really be able to apply strength increases and so on. Without some mass behind it, your ability to use said strength effectively drops rather quickly, and 5 already equals the strength in game terms of Ogre Tyrants (whom already have at least ten to twenty times the mass behind them).

The solution for making an awesome, yet "sensible" abhorash, lie in the special rules created for him. They would have to be unique special rules though.
Yes, He COULD have awesome magic weapons, but why would he? The skill of the perfect warrior is not in the weapons. With that amount of martial pride and so on, I can't really see him doing a lot of questing to find a weapon which only serves to undermine his own accomplishments in any fight-battle he participates in.
From what I have read so far, he has at least had two different swords, and that is not even including the time after the fall of Strigos, so it means he is likely to have had even more. None have been named as magical though if I recall correctly.

 

[El Syf]

He did kill a dragon on his own.
In the Red Duke novel he has a massive two handed black sword, and his armour is also said to be black at that point too. Maybe he didn't bother repainting it after the fight with the Dragon?
Rules for Abhorash are difficult because no matter what you do someone will think it's not a fair representation.
The trouble is his fluff! If anything he seems to be one of the few characters that just get moe over the top, I'm not saying that's bad but it presents real problems to try and transfer into game terms.

 

[Shareya]

^

Like said before, most old vamp's can not be properly represented on the board game just because they would be too overpowered x)

 

[Uziel]

True. He did kill a dragon on his own, and that is something entirely doable by a vampire lord in game terms as well. Hell, it is fairly easy to make a Vampire Lord in 8th ed whom can kill a dragon, in one turn and without a dragon getting to strike before it dies even (and Abhorash's fight lasted far longer than that it is safe to say)...

My point is just that due to us VC players being unbelievably spoiled in the Vampire customization department/power lvl from the 8.ed VC Book, making the likes of Abhorash has become very difficult from a game perspective, as people already see the Ogre Blade +Red Fury + quickblood +etc Vampires as the norm already (which I am arguing from a fluff perspective that they are most assuredly not), which sort of forces one to top this again for Abhorash to make him "unique".

 

[woodster17]

One of the upcoming ToL books in the Neferata series is going to revolve around Abhorash so we'll see how Josh Reynolds chooses to portray him there. Looking forward to that, Abhorash has always been my favourite of the Master Vamps.

 

[Uziel]

I agree. That is going to be interesting, and it will will also go along way towards providing a much better understanding of his character and thus the whole origins of the Blood Dragons.

 

[Lord Dakath]

Uziel, you do make a good point. I did see someone's custom rules for him and I did actually find them to be a fair representation of him and he wasn't super crazy. About me saying his stat-line would be insane, I am being influenced by more then just WHFB fluff for Vampires, I was also using White Wolf fluff for how crazy strong he'd be, one of my flaws for seeing something that spans over different fantasy things.

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

Yeah, I figure that stats wise, most of the characters of legend for the Warhammer World are not representable in a balanced way. For example, Kroq-gar should be able to butcher just about everyone, and be protected magically to boot, as should Oxyotl. And, actually, everyone's favorite saurus can kill Vlad on the table, I think. But, rules wise, a tricked out vampire lord can deal with him fairly easily.

The rules are for the game, while they should be flavorful in relation to the fluff, I don't see the point in having a character that can and has butchered Bloodthirsters for turds and giggles.

Or, you know, a Vampire with such magical might that his Invocation of Nehek should bring back lower vampires or entire regiments of Undead.

 

[N_Man79]

Well this thread has made me want to know more about the character! So the Nagash books are mentioned above but is Abhorash in them much? Is his story covered in detail in any novels so far?

I think Uziel is right that we are very lucky to be able to "make" our characters awesome with vamp powers.

Personally I'd like to use the fluff around Abhorash's 4 followers for my vampires - anyone know their names? Or any other details about them?

 

[Lord Dakath]

Abhorash is a secondary character in the Nagash books. It really doesn't show anything from his point of view and he's in them very little actually. He's in the second one but not mentioned much, and then I think 2/3rds into the 3rd book he comes back for maybe 10 pages. So, while I love the Nagash AoL triolgy, if you're looking to read it for Abhorash alone, I wouldn't pick it up.

 

[Shareya]

Abhorash, in the above mentioned books really does not get much screen time. You do get a basic understanding how he is however.


_VERY_ honor bound vamp, to the point he keeps reminding the rest of the past they had and make them ever so uncomfortable.

 

[El Syf]

He features in the Neferata Novel and Red Duke novel but again not very much. There was info about him in the old army books. The only named followers (so far) that we know of are Walak (Walach) and Lutr both pop up very breifly in Neferata altogether they are called his "Hand".

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

to the point he keeps reminding the rest of the past they had and make them ever so uncomfortable.

Yeah, I'd probably be doing the exact same thing.

Of course, that IS one of the reasons I like Blood Dragons after all.

 

[Mahlek von Horst]

That Emperor, he's rubbish.

Doesn't even have a model.

:tongue:

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

Eh, I wouldn't count on that for too long, with the Horus Heresy models Forgeworld has been making.

Naturally, I eagerly await the production of Sanguinius.

I wouldn't mind them doing the same thing for Warhammer Fantasy, though, and Abhorash would be one of the first figures I would want to see.

 

[John Rainbow]

Naturally, I eagerly await the production of Sanguinius

Hah. Same. Does there tend to be a few WFB --> Space Vampire converts around here?

 

[Shareya]

Eh, I wouldn't count on that for too long, with the Horus Heresy models Forgeworld has been making.

Naturally, I eagerly await the production of Sanguinius.

I wouldn't mind them doing the same thing for Warhammer Fantasy, though, and Abhorash would be one of the first figures I would want to see.

Neferata needs more love

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

Technically, John Rainbow, I'm a Son of Sanguinius and of the Hive Mind first, and a Disciple of the Old Ones and Aborash second, if only by order of group joined. But I love them all. Heck, I actually like all of 40k's races as well as Fantasy's, I just don't have the money or time to work towards playing every army, so I've settled on two for each system.

I'm currently slogging through amassing biomatter for the Hive Mind.

And yes, Sainna, she does. Lahmians seem to be sort of ignored, even on here. The original TVC roleplay seemed to kill off Lahmians like villains of the week just for the heck of it, while Von Carsteins and Blood Dragons took all the glory against Necrarch villains. And the strigoi were mostly ignored or used as cannon fodder.

We're getting horribly off topic, aren't we?