WHFB - 7th Aligning after Overrun

[johnnyw]

Hi,

Sorry if this is a noob question, but I would appreciate some help.

If you pursue a defeated unit and contact another enemy unit do you align to maximize contact, or do you simply stop where you hit?

Thanks

John

 

[Lord Fear]

Maximise contact as if it's a new charge, with as much of a wheel as you can. Tis in the rules for pursuit into fresh enemy, but easily overlooked

 

[johnnyw]

Thanks for the quick response, I'll have a good look at the BRB

I got different answers from different "experts" at the club. It seems that charges, of one kind and another, are still pretty confusing.

JOhn

 

[Lord Fear]

Ignore the self-proclaimed "experts", on things like this, trust your rulebook Last tournament I went to I had to get a judge over to explain precisely how this rule works- to a multiple Grand Tournament winner, no less!

 

[Ergo-Sum]

To be fair, it doesn't help that rules are often subtle changed between editions, so that the answer could be different, depending on the edition. EvC is totally on the money with this one though, and also to check the rule book. 9 times out of 10 the answers in there. You should feel lucky that GW have discovered the revolutionary concept on an index in this last edition! Makes it about ten times quicker to find answers mid-game.

 

[Servius]

EVC... was that Bill Edwards... I have 2 friends that have played him a few times and he is constantly pulling that kind of thing from what they say...

On the point.. he is correct.. Check the rulebook.. and if you still cant find it.. its best to post on a board like this one as someone will most likely quote a rule you didnt find... As GW have a habit of organizing their book by randomly shuffling the pages together and sometimes the ruling is in an odd spot..

 

[One-FISH-]

Yeah, me and my crew have had some very very controversial games thanks to this rule so im ECSTATIC to see a thread about it. You have to adjust as if its a new charge as normal.

What got the argument so heated was we played against someone who went after lined up weak units and used the rule to adjust for shooting the next turn; lined up clipping combats on corners of units; and other general asshattery.

This may be against the point of the thread but what is the worst crap you guys have seen?

 

[Count Ironskull]

I think the biggest problem with people and this rule is that everyone seems to have a different opinion on what "as many as possible" means. In my opinion, and my club has come to a consensus on this, the unwritten end of that sentence is "and still not exceed your movement limit."

As for the worst things I've seen in games, it will always cheating on movement. Whether it's "sliding" after a charge or squeaking an extra inch into a march, I have no tolerance for it.

 

[Ergo-Sum]

Although I don't really like sliding units together, the alternative is clipping. Neither is good, but I think sliding is the lesser of two evils.

I generally haven't seen too much dodgey stuff. Occational rules that I think a bit silly, but nothing too gamesmanship-y really.

 

[Lord Fear]

Clipping over sliding, definitely. It does become a bit murky, especially when people set up their charges so that they will clip (E.g. raise Zombies 1" from corner on unit, charge in, only 2 enemies in contact, so Zombies that should be annihilated survive instead), but I've had some really lame experiences after sliding. One opponent cheerfully suggested that I should slide my unit over after a charge, I thought "Why not?", and next turn he flank-charged my unit, which would otherwise have not been in range. Grrr.

Worst cheating I've seen was a guy who invented a Dwarf rune of extra leadership to help beat a friend (and in doing so claim the top spot, which should have been mine). Worst I've experienced was a Daemon player saying his Bloodthirster was S7, when he didn't have the bonus S, and so he killed my Lord turn 6, who would have otherwise survived.

 

[Ergo-Sum]

Yeah, I suppose which ever of clipping or sliding is the agreed 'norm', it can be abused by those who wish to do so.

Ah, well cheating is different, in my mind, from dodgey play. The most common is the extra suffle formard when moving units forward. It's that or 'forgeting' that that character can't go in that unit, or have that item. Although with a game with as many sub-rules, that can happen, so its not really easy to 'call' people on it. Hence, to my mind its the worse kind, as it can be brushed off as a silly mistake. I know I've occationally made such mistakes, but it's difficult to know the intent of the player who makes such a 'mistake'.

 

[johnnyw]

Given that the FAQ suggests "illegal" sliding beyond the maximum movement, what do you do? Do you agree clipping or sliding at the start of the game?

 

[Servius]

Usually when it comes up... I most important rule it (i.e. roll a d6 and letting the other player choose to roll or choose high or low.) and then play it that way for the remainder of the game. Its rather deceptive.. Clipping shouldnt happen.. also Sliding shouldnt either. but both are viable options via the rule. I tend rather just not charge in that instance unless its going to make or break the game in which case I usually side in the option that seems most fair at the time... if your charging blood knights and find that you cant engage all models.. and im loosing 3 blood knights.. I usually say clip.. if its zombies... I would say slide.. Its rather up the players at that point.

On the character not joining a unit... I tend to make a list for tournaments of stuff like that for each army.. like alters not being the general and etc.. just in the case of it happening I can catch it early on and disagree and force the player to look the rule up.. While at times it can get tedious to do.. Especially like what happened one game a Quake City 2008 when the opposing player was playing the same army as me (HE) and didnt have a clue as to a single army special rule other than ASF. In a tournament situation where sportsmenship is scored.. be very careful.. as if your pointing out too many problems with their playing as far as rules you can expect to get a low sports score. so letting things go which you to could use to your advantage later are sometimes a good idea.. just make a note like "I never knew you could do that, thats awesome" etc... It can be considered deceptive... but sometimes just saying that is enough to get the correct ruling out as they will themselves look it up.

Largest cheat i have ever had happen to me... When Ogre Kingdoms came out the only player who picked it up, originally ran a slaughtermaster and 3 butchers (that was just a honest mistake in the first Army Builder file..) The big one was the fact that he possessed the only book and the shop was out. and he forgot it that day.. He then durring the course of the game probably made about 50 attempts to cast at the Panic Test spell... Yeah.. he said that Ogres could cast the same spell multiple times with the SAME caster. turn 5 he had me as all my mages had been killed and he paniced my army in the his yetis and gorgers.

 

[Ergo-Sum]

I think, Johnny, that most clubs and groups will usually decide between themselves which 'solution' you go for. My imediate gaming group and I go for sliding of units, usually trying to make it as reasonable as possible. But that's just our gut feeling, I would say neither is right or wrong. I would rather use the same solution all the time, rather than roll off every for every game though, as you tend to get used to playing one 'solution' or the other.

Yeah, it always pays to know other armies you don't play almost as well as you own.

Servius - Ha, bet you were spitting feathers at the new, total over powered Ogre army! Or did you think 'this can't be right, surely?' As to forgeting the book, yep, bit dodgey when all the spells, items and special rules are in the book.

 

[Servius]

Actually, I wasnt!! lol I was like.. considering the fact that your army disintergrates when it hits combat due to the lack of getting enough ogres.. I guess it makes up for it... When I found out he was wrong I laughed... I think I said the following (theres always the scraplauncher...)

 

[Count Ironskull]

Sliding is my pet peeve in this game. I watch people bring a 6-wide unit of chaos knights into contact with just the edge of a unit, and then try to get a free slide out of it so they can decimate the unit, overrun, and then cheese another slide.

Warhammer Fantasy is a game of tactics and maneuvering. If you're barely in range to complete a charge, you should either spend a turn to line up for a better charge, or charge and accept that you're only getting a few models in combat. It's a tactical decision.

If you don't like guessing ranges, play 40K. =)

 

[Lord Fear]

Yeah, that's how I tend to think- and often, as a Chaos player it's me having to do the clipping with my Knights against massive ranked-up units. Last week in a Chaos vs Chaos game, I placed some Warhounds in front of my Ogres, facing off against a Giant. The idea was that the Giant would charge the Hounds, who would flee, and then the Giant would fight my Ogres instead- the MOST damage a Giant can do is kill 1 Ogre a turn, so he would be facing 8-12 S6 attacks back at him each round, which would kill him in short order. However, I didn't place my Hounds as well as I thought, and the Giant could just about charge around the Hounds straight into the Ogres- but my poor positioning meant that with only one pivot allowed (plus align), the Giant would only contact two Ogres at maximum. It would have been very shoddy of me to then insist we slide the Giant over to maximise and face all the Ogres' attacks, when I had been outplayed like that.

 

[Ergo-Sum]

This is all true and correct, however there can be just as many horror stories of clipping, with units of something like Zombies who end up fighting one swordmaster due to clipping, and then making them flee becaause there is no way the Swordsmasters can do enough damage to counteract the ranks and outnumbering. As long as everyone in your immediate group knows if your allowing clipping or slideing then its all good really, but both can equally be used to gamesmanship effects.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Personally my belief is that sliding should not be allowed. I understand the reasoning but Count Ironskull's post summed it up for me

Warhammer Fantasy is a game of tactics and maneuvering. If you're barely in range to complete a charge, you should either spend a turn to line up for a better charge, or charge and accept that you're only getting a few models in combat. It's a tactical decision.

 

[Ergo-Sum]

Surely you could use the exact same quote and be talking about clipping though?

Neither are good, I just feel it's a case of personal opinion as to which is worse

 

[Lord Fear]

I don't know how you can apply that quote to clipping. The equivalent would be:
If you're barely in range to complete a charge, you should get free movement to bring all models into combat.

It is personal opinion over which is worse, however peoples' opinions are usually clouded by which is more beneficial to them. Generally speaking we are all free to offer to slide if it looks like it will enhance the game, as is suggested by the FAQ. But you should never insist on sliding, as it is incredibly abusable- the number of times I've had an opponent insist that sliding is the "fair" thing to do, only for the seemingly-harmless slide to result in a massive advantage is frankly astounding. On the other hand the only time I've ever seen clipping to have been abusive (rather than annoying, which it can be) was a crappy Daemon player using Siren Song to force a clip fron the Sirened unit, and he suffered for his idiocy.

In the suggested example of Zombies clipping Swordmasters, for example, I can't think of a case where it would have been possible to only get 1 Zombie and 1 Swordmaster in, that didn't require exceptional tactical skill from the Vampire Count player, lots of magical investment, or rubbish playing from the High Elf player (most likely all three). Just because it's Zombies vs Swordmasters, doesn't mean the Swordies should get a free pass

 

[Ergo-Sum]

Ah well, it's probably personal experince more than anything, but back in the day before sliding was the offical answer, as per the FAQ, I saw a fair bit of dodgey clipping being tactically used. Now, admitedly, it was highly unlikely to be used to get a one model fighting one model situation. It can be used, to get some two on two type situations, without too much thougth or super range guessing or magic movement, assuming similar charge ranges of units. I think people will use either clipping or sliding to enginner a tactical advantage, depending on what is allowed, if they are of the mind set to do so.

Obviously, clipping is far more useful to me as a VC general, I win on SCR not actually killing stuff, but I'd still rather have sliding than clipping. Ha, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one

 

[Cpt_Fluffy]

I'm rather joining the discussion mid-way here, but I may as well chip in.

Clipping was horrendous back in previous editions, as it was an option for the charging unit (unless we all played it wrong before internet RAW discussions were the norm) to clip with one or two guys to minimise strikes back. Now, with the rules obligating the charger to maximise models in combat within the allowance of her* movement it is much rarer than the filthy clips occur.

It's uncommon that a charge distance is so tight that wheeling a bit further to use the full movement won't bring upwards of 75% of the unit into contact.

Obviously, this is just my experience and I'm by no means a heavy player. But clipping doesn't seem that common a problem, and when people try to push it - ensuring they are using the full movement to wheel straighter (combined with the free wheel to align onto the charged unit) to fulfil the obligation to maximise the combat seems to fix most situations.

*or his.

 

[Lord Fear]

Indeed, clipping was nasty in 6th edition, e.g. a chariot could charge and only make contact with the corner of the enemy unit, or a dragonlord could just charge whichever corner of an enemy unit didn't have the champion.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so a question then - what rule would you suggest to avoid excessive clipping, whilst not having to slide the full unit right across? Anyone have a happy medium?