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AoS experience

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,100
#76
Curiously, I've found that one of the biggest proponents of AoS in the local scene is, in all other cases and all other games, one of the absolute most competitive players around, sometimes annoyingly so. Like, a fine guy to hang out with, but someone I'd normally be quite skeptical of playing against. He's honestly the last person I would have expected to even give AoS the time of day.

It's actually kind of funny. Like, I don't know if he'll still be playing the game a month from now, but it's like it took a game that makes competitive play literally impossible for him to learn how to enjoy playing casually.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#77
Regardless, skeletons have 3 attacks each when over 30 models. 4 if Krell is the general. (Sword Skeles) are hitting on 3+ if there's a hero nearby and wounding on 4+, with tons of improvement depending on who your General is. Danse Macabre allows you to attack twice in one phase. So even with 30 lowly skeletons, you can get in 240 attacks with good hit/wound chance. This is in a single combat phase before your opponent can retaliate. In most situations, even without maximized frontage & especially with double pile-in from danse, you're not going to have any difficulty killing things with a large block of skeletons regardless of their bases or modelling.
See this is an interesting rule. The way I played and saw it in action, I only attacked with the "front" row of skeletons, and there was a heap of them behind the others "Out" of combat range. I perhaps could have crammed them in harder, or bothered to measure if any were within 1" in the second "row" (I didn't even bother, I just play "touching base is in combat"). So to me, when I had 20 skeletons each with +1 attack due to this bonus, and only 10-11 of them could get into combat at once, I saw it and said "Oh it's like a simple way of allowing the entire unit to attack without forcing them to all be in range to actually attack. It makes the horde feel like they are all striking blows!" Rather than thinking that they actually are getting better as more skeletons appear (Some sort of undead-hive-quickness for extra attacks, right?).

So I think that rule is sort of eloquent, but I can see that it could be "abuse-able" in such a way. Especially with spear skeletons, who would be definitely attacking from second row, so basically just doubling their attacks. I guess I might be wrong about the "flavor" that ability is suppose to be evoking.

Curiously, I've found that one of the biggest proponents of AoS in the local scene is, in all other cases and all other games, one of the absolute most competitive players around, sometimes annoyingly so. Like, a fine guy to hang out with, but someone I'd normally be quite skeptical of playing against. He's honestly the last person I would have expected to even give AoS the time of day.

It's actually kind of funny. Like, I don't know if he'll still be playing the game a month from now, but it's like it took a game that makes competitive play literally impossible for him to learn how to enjoy playing casually.
That is pretty funny. I hope he doesn't lose interest completely too soon, that make that story from slightly funny to rather tragic.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,245
#78
I only attacked with the "front" row of skeletons, and there was a heap of them behind the others "Out" of combat range. I perhaps could have crammed them in harder, or bothered to measure if any were within 1" in the second "row" (I didn't even bother, I just play "touching base is in combat"). So to me, when I had 20 skeletons each with +1 attack due to this bonus, and only 10-11 of them could get into combat at once, I saw it and said "Oh it's like a simple way of allowing the entire unit to attack without forcing them to all be in range to actually attack. It makes the horde feel like they are all striking blows!" Rather than thinking that they actually are getting better as more skeletons appear (Some sort of undead-hive-quickness for extra attacks, right?).
You CAN actually attack with 2 rows of small models (like our infantry). I measured it!

You can strike with 3 rows while using spears, also.

The Legions of Skeletons special rule makes a 30+ unit actually dangerous, to anything! Having numbers in AoS is much more relevant than before, even with our "crappy" units. Every army has these sort of rules now.

Also, by "attacks" it shouldn't mean that your skeleton suddenly realizad how to swing 3 more times, instead of just once. I guess it means that his only single thrust while he is attacking is much more devastating, due to the fact that a mass of skeletons are piling up and striking, leaving no place to stand and "miss".

At least that's how I picture it
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
True Blood
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#79
You CAN actually attack with 2 rows of small models (like our infantry). I measured it!

You can strike with 3 rows while using spears, also.

The Legions of Skeletons special rule makes a 30+ unit actually dangerous, to anything! Having numbers in AoS is much more relevant than before, even with our "crappy" units. Every army has these sort of rules now.

Also, by "attacks" it shouldn't mean that your skeleton suddenly realizad how to swing 3 more times, instead of just once. I guess it means that his only single thrust while he is attacking is much more devastating, due to the fact that a mass of skeletons are piling up and striking, leaving no place to stand and "miss".

At least that's how I picture it
Have you seen the zombies rules? 30+ zombies get +3 to hit AND wound and if a CC is nearby the to hit gets even better. Zombies hitting on 2+ and wounding on 3+ and they can actually recruit the models they kill!!!
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
358
#80
I understand all of these words that you are saying, but I can't picture it in action. I'm more of a show me, don't tell me kind of person. Do you think you could draw up some examples or a video explaining how some of these work?
Man I wish I was that savvy to make videos and such. Heres a pic:


This is a pretty standard one direction charge. You can see here all 15 skeletons could trace a line at least 1" from some part of their models to some part of this (soon to be dead) Stormcast Eternal model. You can imagine another 15 who couldn't quite squeeze in, but being part of the unit, are pushing them all forward granting them 3 attacks each, for a total of 45 (or 60, if Krell was the general, and at 3+ to hit by the way). IN the next round (or if Danse Macabre has been cast) They can all pile in 3" more and you'll be able to get the better part of all 30 of your models attacks. Obviously if you take spears, there is no question - but my point is, do you even need to?

I dont think this feels "cheaty" or "unsportsmanlike conduct". We only have two rules to go on:

A. Any part of my models must be within 1" of any part of their model to use its attacks.
B. Bases Don't Matter. They are used to keep the models from falling over.

WD #75 pg. 37: "Bases play no part in W:AoS, and are only there to make your models look magnificent, and to hold them up".

Unless they release some subset of rules that require a base, you can play is if the bases arent there. You dont even need to use them if you dont need to. Or, even make makeshift bases out of whatever you like. Most of my monsters will have no base if I can help it.

Obviously, were all holding our breath for some type of list building regulation to prevent people from bringing 10 hellpit abominations or summoning 3 Bloodthirsters each turn, but I'm getting really excited for the new age of Undead.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,245
#81
Have you seen the zombies rules? 30+ zombies get +3 to hit AND wound and if a CC is nearby the to hit gets even better. Zombies hitting on 2+ and wounding on 3+ and they can actually recruit the models they kill!!!
Yep! they are pretty great, specially since you can just keep summoning and adding them to your Unit :D

However:

Only a limited amount of zombies get to actually attack, and 10-20 models are the top I can bring against a unit of 5-wide dudes (standard measure). Those are 20ish reliable attacks, to Hit and Wound :D

Skeletons, on the other hand get more attacks per 10 dudes, and can attack up to 3 rows of them with spears, that's about 90 attacks (i think... .o.)

the point is, zombies get to control the table once they are big enough, and can engage multiple fronts easily. Skeletons, on the other hand, only need to be around the count of 40 to issue a devastating charge and grinding other units
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
True Blood
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#82
Man I wish I was that savvy to make videos and such. Heres a pic:
View attachment 56485

This is a pretty standard one direction charge. You can see here all 15 skeletons could trace a line at least 1" from some part of their models to some part of this (soon to be dead) Stormcast Eternal model. You can imagine another 15 who couldn't quite squeeze in, but being part of the unit, are pushing them all forward granting them 3 attacks each, for a total of 45 (or 60, if Krell was the general, and at 3+ to hit by the way). IN the next round (or if Danse Macabre has been cast) They can all pile in 3" more and you'll be able to get the better part of all 30 of your models attacks. Obviously if you take spears, there is no question - but my point is, do you even need to?

I dont think this feels "cheaty" or "unsportsmanlike conduct". We only have two rules to go on:

A. Any part of my models must be within 1" of any part of their model to use its attacks.
B. Bases Don't Matter. They are used to keep the models from falling over.

WD #75 pg. 37: "Bases play no part in W:AoS, and are only there to make your models look magnificent, and to hold them up".

Unless they release some subset of rules that require a base, you can play is if the bases arent there. You dont even need to use them if you dont need to. Or, even make makeshift bases out of whatever you like. Most of my monsters will have no base if I can help it.

Obviously, were all holding our breath for some type of list building regulation to prevent people from bringing 10 hellpit abominations or summoning 3 Bloodthirsters each turn, but I'm getting really excited for the new age of Undead.
So if bases don't matter, could you overlap them to fit more models?
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
358
#83
What do you mean by overlap? Like the old filler bases with several models on a single base? Technically I think you could but that would provide less maneuverability and possibly limit the kinds of tactics that AoS allows for.

i actually find the circular bases to be better for stacking on top of each other. Circles are more balanced than squares. I had more difficulty squeezing in the bottom guys on square bases.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#84
No, overlap as in like the skeleton down at the very bottom of the image, who's base is sitting partially over the top of some other bases so he can get closer.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#86
It looks disgusting.
If I wanted to play an overlapping game I would have gone with:
proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Frozmilla.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F03%2Fmikado.jpg&hash=9219fe4d6dd4b008880d0c701d640b7b
Ah yeah, Pick up sticks, what a great game. Gotta appreciate classics.

@EternallyUndying @Banat and @Alabaster427 : Yeah, that's totally a thing. I'm going to change the meta though by modeling steep slopes on the edge of my bases so that my opponents can't rest their models on the edge of my bases, at least. That should keep a few of their models off mine when combat ensues.

I of course am joking. Because I think that, at the stem of the problem with stacking bases like that, is disrespect for the models themselves. I would not be bothering to risk my models toppling over or nicking up someone else's models they've put time and effort into. And if I played a game against anyone and saw them attempting to do something like this, I would at least ask them to respect my models if not their own. Less out of concern for the game being imbalanced or stupid, but just that it feels very improper treatment of something that I do not relegate to the domain of simple "toys".

The issue with the spears pointing forward and allowing attackers "through" their front ranks to be even closer to the enemy seems like a real concern though, as @Mad 'At has pointed out to me in the past. And until they find a more eloquent solution that's just how it will be. I certainly would hate to see models that are crafted to "get advantage" in this silly game though rather than for the aesthetic values that people find pleasing.

In a similar vein, I do think I will be doing unit fillers for my units still, despite the switch to round bases. I don't know the exact dimensions or "equivalents" as far as how many different bases will represent but I'll try to be fair. Things like putting a new small oval base in for 3x small troops (Skeletons/zombies), maybe a 40-60mm round base as a 5-6x group and perhaps even the larger oval for a 10-15x stand in. I'll have to place bases next to each other and get a better feel for how much of a "foot print" each leaves on the board for the estimate of equivalent troops, but I do plan to keep making unit fillers. I just enjoy that aspect of the modeling far too much to simply not, and if my opponent disagrees or doesn't want me to, then I'll just have to deal without a larger army. Of course, even when I use them however I'll be "breaking them down" when situations occur that require more model-per-model measurements, like once they hit combat if I need to keep them piling in, or like, a full unit would never consist of just the filler without the ability to remove wounds as needed by shooting/magic. I am hopeful that if they look well, and I explain it most opponents would not have a terrible time accepting :vampire1: Although undead summoning and that whole issue may lend itself to them not wanting me to have "more" undead that I may have in actual model count, and that is a real concern for me as well. Summoning already seems to have a bit of issues, so I don't want to further compound it!
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
358
#87
As I said its probably not even necessary. If you only squeeze in what you can squeeze in + any modes that have swords long enough, you got like 8 attacks x3. I think 24 attacks should be enough to kill one eternal, probably like 60 attacks with danse macabre, without any stacking. And if you're worried about it, go with spears; 2" is enough to not have to worry.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,100
#88
When you start piling your models on top of each other, and especially on top of my carefully modeled bases, potentially scuffing up my painstaking paint job for the sake of a couple extra attacks in a game that isn't fit for competitive play regardless, that's when I pick up my toys and go home, never to play a game against you again.

Do not do this thing. This is a beer and pretzels game. Don't be an arse unless you want the beer dumped on your head, and the pretzels dumped down your pants.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
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Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#89
As I said its probably not even necessary. If you only squeeze in what you can squeeze in + any modes that have swords long enough, you got like 8 attacks x3. I think 24 attacks should be enough to kill one eternal, probably like 60 attacks with danse macabre, without any stacking. And if you're worried about it, go with spears; 2" is enough to not have to worry.
All I have to say is always play graciously. Give your opponents the benefit of the doubt when ranges are questionable, don't sweat the small stuff, and if your opponent is too blind to see past their own ignorance then bow out.

I am sure your second scenario is not impossible, and when I play I'm not going to be holding back attacks, although I will not be suggesting that a model 3 bases back from the combat with a really "long" long sword is still in range.

Just lead by example, and if people don't follow suit then you know your own limits for what you can tolerate in the field of friendly games.
 

Tawg

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Jan 16, 2012
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#90
Oh, by the way, I got the box already. My FLGS was open until Midnight, so I went up there when I got a chance and picked it up.

The models, of course, are fantastic. They are really.. it's good, and so far they have been quite easy to put together.

The little book that came with the set, I haven't read it back to front yet (Or the other way either), but it has the WarScrolls for the two forces, and the formations that contain each model for the two sides. Some of the units have pretty cool rules, although unfortunately I didn't get to play at all tonight. The store was inundated with Magic players for Pre-release (The reason they were open till midnight), and there was only one other guy there for AoS. We had a good chat.

Oh, but the book, it has a good bit of fluff/story and a handful of painting tips for the models. But the part I was most stoked for was the scenarios, and it's a slight let down. They are less open-ended game modes, rather they are specific battles to play through with the models in the starter set. There is a series of them, maybe about 4-6, and they progress in size and difficulty until you play the full armies against each other. It's basically like a story-telly tutorial, but it's unfortunately not exactly what I was hoping for. Although it's a nice alternative to the "Complete Annihilation is the only win condition!" set that is set out in the rules.

Anyhow, I'm hoping to have those mostly together by tomorrow maybe, so I think I'mma get back to building for now :ghost:

Next week the FLGS is having a "release" for AoS, a week late due to the Magic events taking up this whole weekend. So hopefully I'll be able to show up for that next week and find a good handful of other players available, to finally get some more games in. At the very least, my friend will be in town, so I can play him if he doesn't have different plans.
 

El Syf

Crypt Horror
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
575
#91
Yet to get a game in and think I'll wait until the undead get their redesign before I make a proper decision.The fact my usual opponent doesn't do technology is also an issue, being a dwarf player he's quite stubborn...
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,100
#92
I was also at the store till midnight, but ended up not getting a box. The main draw for me was the fluff book, but glancing through someone elses, it didn't really seem to have any more information on the death forces than the last white dwarf did. So I guess I'll wait. From the sound of it, the new book coming out won't have much for us, either. It seems we'll have to wait a few months for GW to get around to releasing new death stuff before we can expect any significant fluff for the undead in AoS, or to find out who apart from Nagash is still around or whether there are any significant new personalities or the like.
 
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