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AoS experience

Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
360
#27
They dropped rules really only to play the box set, which by the way isn't even out yet.

Hitting and Wounding
This is a great simplification. If you have a 3 foot sword you can hit a dragon or a warrior with the same skill (provided he is 3 feet in front of you). Of course your blade will likely bounce off the dragons hide, or shave a few scales off, whereas a warrior there's always a chance to decapitate.

Shooting Phase
Not shooting into combat was always silly. Archers can volley over the battle lines to hit enemy troops. You dont think a waywatcher can hit a solider standing in full view without accidentally hitting an ally? Or worse yet, they would just drop their bow if the enemy is coming in close? You can imagine snipers from the trees picking off the back ranks as they run to join in the battle. The new rules simply allow those skilled in ranged weapons to use them with skill. Archers are now all Legolas; enjoy it.

Character Customization

Most of the customization is gone and with good reason, customizing was always horribly unbalanced. There was always undervalued options that made units too strong, and they were always always picked. You have to pick scissors, a dagger, a sword and a shotgun... how often did you pick the scissors? They simply took away the scissors and shotgun and now you have to pick a reasonable weapon.

New Tactics
Battles are now no holds barred slaughterfests. The idea was more back and fourth and quicker games, and its working beautifully. Initiative was massive before, now its a turn based important choice you have to make in every combat phase. You will often lose combats you dont strike first, so choose wisely. Lots of talk about over simplification, whats more simple than being forced into "blocks"? Everyone better start reading "The Art of War" because formations are now completely unbound and complex military techniques can now be used. The types of battle tactics you're going to see as people learn how to really use this system are going to be mind blowing.

Magic
I loved the old magic (VC being a magic-centered army, most of us did) but the "I win" spells were alienating all but the most dedicated fans and they needed to go. A clean simple magic phase means the game can be more tactical. No more purple sun means less ragequtting. Less ragequitting means more players. More players means a bigger fanbase, which is good for all.

Funny Rules
These are freaking great, please dont complain about a good thing. These create amazing fun. You'll spend the entire game trying to convince the guy with Settra that his shoelaces are untied. When two empire players start a game they will have to call an outside judge in to rate their mustaches. This creates a new dynamic that will make AoS games the most fun we've ever had with warhammer .. at the end of the day, arent we all just trying to have fun?

List Building?
The only qualm I have right now is the lack of list building, which I think is in the works. My theory is the new app was the answer but it got delayed a bit and thats why were in limbo. We just have to suck it up, gather together what little patience we have left and see what happens next.
 
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Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#28
Summoning still runs the risk of being a win button. And while I'm not really complaining about shooting being strong, it is very strong. ranged weapons aren't really much weaker then melee weapons, have reach, often multi-fire, and can still be fired even while engaged, by units that can also get a punch in. If you're doing 'wound counting' or whatever, ranged dude wounds should probably be counted twice. Alternatively, you might want to consider a mordheim or LotR style cap on the number of ranged models you field in your army.
 

Dragonet

Wight King
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
450
#29
... modeling units that had nothing to do with what GW said for me to play with. For instance I was working on a "Coiling Death Wurm" that was burrowing/breaking ground over the course of 6x40mm bases, that I planned to use as Crypt Horrors. I just thought it was cool
DEATHWYRM!!! That is awesome, expect to see mine shortly! I also love to use alternative models; I use Werewolves instead of Crypt Horrors and Undead Ogres as Flesh Golems/Ushabti, I feel the rules fit quite well that way. For this burrowing creature I'd be tempted to use Sepulchral Stalker or Necropolis Knight rules, I'm really not a fan of either of them.
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
21
#30
Here are my thoughts on AoS:

http://www.jondoesgaming.com/2015/07/age-of-sigmar-review-good-bad-and-very.html

I expect GW went into this knowing it would alienate a lot of fans of the old system. There would be a lot of outrage on the net and that should be expected and taken into account.

I think this new system is very average. It's a good entry level system but it's pricing out potential new markets. not many parents will want to fork out £75 for a game their kids may play a few times and then move on. This isn't a statement on the game but the attention span of kids.

A lot of people loved tournaments and Throne of Skulls and at first look this system doesn't seem to suit that. Hence rage.

This system has replaced tactical nuances of the old system, magic/movement etc, with new tactical nuances, combat phase. People will need to adjust before you can say it is completely bereft of tactics.

I am disappointed with some over simplifications but also please to see some overly complex bits brought back down to normality.

The funny rules are good to start with but I did get a bit bored with them as the game went on. This could be just me though.

There's some good points, some bad. Depending on why you play the scales will lean one way or the other. So it's average.

And with a complete reset GW have stomped all over something that some gamers really loved, like more than their firstborn child, so they will be pretty pissed.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#31
Well you gave it a shot at the very least, your assessment had no real surprises in it though.
Never really claimed it did, although I will point out that balancing on wounds still seemed to result in a rather lopsided game even without either side going out of their way to deliberately break it, so hopefully whatever army construction/balance rules they're working on don't rely exclusively on that.

During set up, I was aiming to put out something pretty equivalent in tone and quality to the dark elf player, and only went back to my car for arkhan when I saw he was fielding a special character of his own. Just pointing out that reaching a well matched game isn't that simple, even when both players are aiming for it.

Of course, summoning and lopsided die rolls were a big factor in this game as well, so I'm not claiming the game 'proves' anything. Most importantly, I think we both enjoyed the game despite everything (or, at least, I did), so there's that, though again I'm not sure it's a game I could play week in and week out.
 
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Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
360
#32
They have announced that there will be no points but there will be a system in place to balance armies, both casually and tournament-specific. This sounds very intriguing.

On the bad side they said something like, pretty much they are reinventing every army from the ground up. All or most of the existing models are getting the axe and new art-direction models are being made in their place (however all existing models will still be "counts as" playable).

The warscrolls are a "sendoff" to the old armies, hence the lighthearted and funny rules. The 2 new armies deliberately do not have any "silly rules".

Hold on to your wallets because they are about to replace all their plastic crack with 100% pure plastic Colombian cocaine.
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
21
#33
I've heard, from a long time GW manager, who hired a number of those working at head office, that the rumour of a GW employee answering all the AoS queries at the forgeworld open day was rubbish.

Yes someone was there but they wouldn't be giving out game changing info like that. Also, GW wouldn't go in for a massive release like this and then replace it with a BRB two months down the line. Right now, I believe, we are seeing them set up a casual game, older models will be replaced and any tournaments/campaigns will be narrative driven with players expected to balance/agree upon the rules at the start of games.
 

Dragonet

Wight King
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
450
#34
Very clever... They've pulled a switcheroo on Mantic; rules for most of their models in Ao$, but they can't return the favour because of the protectable IP. If the upcoming rules round things off the way we hope they'll have pulled off a massive coup.
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
360
#35
Very odd rumor. It coincides with everything thats happening. Mainly, it only answers our fears there they dont intend to balance. If this is false and they truly dont intend to have any way to balance then it wont be long till someone has to drag that new gold statue of theirs to the pawn shop.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#36
Had my second game of AoS today.

Vamp counts vs. a 'death' player who used models from vamps and tomb kings. This time decided to try the 'you can't summon what you didn't bring to the battle to begin with' strategy. Also played with more toned down magic in general - I didn't have any casting bonuses, opponent didn't have any wizards at all.

My list:
Ghoul king on terrorgheist
Necromancer
28 ghouls
3 horrors

His list:
Krell
Necrotect
2 harbingers
some tomb guard w/ shields (16? 20?)
some grave guard w/ shields (16? 20?)

I was outnumbered again, but we skipped the sudden death conditions since I had both a monster and the ability to summon stuff. there was assorted terrain, it didn't make much difference.

Opponent went first, shuffling forward in a clump in the middle with the harbingers swinging around to the side.

On my turn my necromancer summoned another 3 horrors in the way of the harbingers, and the ghoul king cast the +1 save spell on himself. I moved the ghouls up, moved the gheist up to scream at krell - knocking him down to a couple wounds. The gheist then charged into the tomb guard, but unfortunately my original horror unit failed to charge into the grave guard - I had meant to tie them up a bit - even with the extra movement from the ghoul king's command ability. The summoned horrors however did charge his morghasts. In combat the gheist lost 5 wounds and chewed the tomb guard down to about 8 models, 7 after bravery tests. The horrors lost a model but nearly killed a morghast in return.

Opponent won init in turn two, charging the harbingers into the summoned horrors and the grave guard into the terrorgheist, giving them krell's command bonus. He swung first with the harbingers. In combat, I lost one horror, he tok 5 wounds on a morghast, I wiffed badly against the grave guard, killing only a couple, and he killed my terrorgheist and the rest of the summoned horror unit. I was about ready to throw it in.

On my turn I charged the ghouls into the harbingers, ran the remaining horrors away from his infantry, swinging way out to the flank to meet up with my ghouls and necromancer, and failed to summon a new terrorgheist, despite a +1 bonus from a terrain piece. The ghouls wiped out his harbingers with just a bucket load of dice.

I won init turn three. On my turn, I ran, backing up slightly and forming the ghouls and horrors into a battle line to face his oncoming infantry, with the closest models together in the center. If he wanted to charge, he'd have to roll pretty well on the die, and would only be able to make it in with Krell and the grave guard. I also failed once more to summon a new terrorgheist.

On his turn, he took the bait and charged my horrors and ghouls with krell and his grave guard, leaving the tomb guard behind. His grave guard wipe out the horrors, The ghouls that are able to consolidate in just barely fail to kill krell, who cuts down several with his axe in return. However, the necro is also within 3", so he piles in and knocks the last wound off krell with his bonk branch. Huzzah!

I win init round four, cast vanhels on the ghouls, withdraw my necro from combat, and watch the ghouls wipe out the rest of the grave guard, although they are brought below 20 models themselves in return, significantly reducing their damage threat in the face of the oncoming tomb guard.

At this point, the game had to be called for time (there was a lot of wasted time looking up rules and chit chatting), but it was looking pretty even - with about 16 ghouls and a necromancer looking at about 12 tomb guard (they had healed up some from their banner) and a necrotect. He called it a tie, I called it his victory since I imagine the ghouls were about to get messed up pretty badly.


He might have had me had he waited an extra turn so that he could charge me with everything at once. Then again, things might also have looked different had I played more conservatively with my ghoul king at the start of the game, or passed those hail mary summon rolls for a replacement gheist, or just tried for more manageable summons like more ghouls or crypt horrors.

Otherwise, a remarkably even game this time around, at least compared to my previous outing. I still haven't played against a shooty heavy list, though I've heard grumblings from players who have. I will say the game is taking longer to play than generally advertised, for me at least. That may change with more experience.

I will say that, while I've seen many horror stories, and agree with all the criticisms of the rules that are out there, I have enjoyed both of my own games of Sigmar so far. It's not a game that I would spend a lot of money on, but neither am I abandoning my army or swearing off GW in disgust.
 
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Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#37
Baiting charges with a Hero nearby seems like not a bad plan! So, summoning heavy stuff, with an increasd casting value isn't recomended without some bonuses, it seems (at least +2, from Corpse Cart & Morghasts).

Noted!
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#38
Yeah, arkhan had no trouble summoning a terrorgheist with his bonuses last game (+2 on his own, +1 for morghasts). He needed a 7, the necro needed a 9 on 2d6. I knew it was a long shot, but I got greedy, and it cost me two rounds of productivity with my necromancer. I could have successfully summoned more horrors instead, or picked off krell with a couple arcane bolts before he even hit combat with my ghouls. Not that he did too much damage, as he rolled kind of poorly, but his command ability buff on the grave guard cost me a unit of horrors and enabled the grave guard to bring the ghouls below 20 models before getting wiped out in my turn, which would have made a big difference in the battle between the remaining ghouls and tomb guard on the following turn if we had the time to play it.

One important note that just occurred to me looking back at this game - while base size theoretically 'doesn't matter', my ghouls were much more powerful in this game on their 20mm squares than they would have been on 25mm rounds, as it let them get a little bit closer to their enemies, allowing a second rank to just barely get within reach in both the combats they participated in, dramatically increasing the number of attacks that unit could put out. Things likely would have been very different indeed had they been on what is now the 'proper' bases, as they only just barely finished off both the morghasts and the grave guard.
 

Eyeless

Wight King
Joined
May 17, 2013
Messages
443
#39
Miniwargaming posted up a video trying out a new balancing system. It goes like this: (Attacks + Wounds) x Bravery = points per model. and also add x2 if the unit is monstrous or a warmachine. It did look ok from their battle quite balanced, however i think Bravery should be replaced with Movement in the formula since it looks like movement is very important in AoS. I know it doesn't take into consideration range bonuses, special rules and saves but you can't have everything and it gets too much complicated then. so it's a gd start. planning to test it out on my next game =)
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#40
Go ahead and try it, but a system that doesn't take into account range or special rules is unlikely to work well, imo, as both of those are major factors in this game.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
True Blood
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#41
Miniwargaming posted up a video trying out a new balancing system. It goes like this: (Attacks + Wounds) x Bravery = points per model. and also add x2 if the unit is monstrous or a warmachine. It did look ok from their battle quite balanced, however i think Bravery should be replaced with Movement in the formula since it looks like movement is very important in AoS. I know it doesn't take into consideration range bonuses, special rules and saves but you can't have everything and it gets too much complicated then. so it's a gd start. planning to test it out on my next game =)
The problem is that everything in VC is bravery 10. so all of our units are going to be much more expensive. Hell, a single zombie would be 20 points!. I think I am going to stick without comp rules for now.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#42
With "small" base models, like our infantry, you can get to attack with 2 rows of 1'' weapons, and a third row of 2'' weapons to the same target.

Ghouls have a nice amount of attacks for a frontline, even if they can't replenish like other units with a banner can.
Then, you can attack from behind with:

Morghast Archai
Zombie Dragon's attacks
Terrorgheist's attacks
Cairn Wraith's attacks (although when you charge with him, you must first reach the 1/2'' range, then in the pile up, you can move him behind the Ghouls)
Varghulf's Claws
Skeleton Warrior's Spears (although they are 5+ to Hit, so better buff them a bit)
Corpse Cart's Corpsemaster's Goad
Necromancer's Staff
Bat Swarms's Razor sharp teeth (has a range of 3'', even better!)
Abyssal Terror's Claws and tusks
Mannfred's Sickle-glaive

Sepulchral Stalker's Ornate stave
Necrosphinx's attacks, save for the stone claws
Warsphinx's attacks, save for the stone claws
Tomb Scorpion's attacks
Necropolis Knights attacks!!
Necrotect's whip
Skeleton Chariots's spears
Skeleton Horsemen's spears
Settra's Blessed Blade of Ptra

Hulkier based models, like WoC can't, unless you cramp them up.

EDIT: added TK models with 2'' melee weapons
 
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Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#43
The problem with using this tactic offensively is the charge rules. You cannot move within 3" of the enemy in the movement phase, and you have to be within 3" to pile in, so the only way to get into combat is to charge. To charge, you have to get at least one model within .5", so if the opponent is bubbled by ghouls, you're not getting the terrorgheist, spear skellies, or morhast archai in there there to help.

Defensively, though, it works a treat. The opponent will charge your bubble line, bringing your reachy stuff in range without you having to charge at all. A strigoi on terrorgheist bubble wrapped with crypt ghouls in particular seems potentially nasty, at least for melee opponents to try to take on, as you scream and bite at them from behind the safety of your ghouls. Flank with larger ghoul units, and restore wounds to them all with the strigoi's signature spell, replacing the effect of the banners they don't have, while granting them all bonuses by virtue of being a ghoul king.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#44
I've given thought about that as well, and came up with a partial solution:

Depending on your charge roll, you can move within 1/2'' with your large models (only 1 model will suffice, if talking about Skeletons, the rest can get behind your ghouls), anywhere near the frontline is fine. Then, in the pile up phase you move them 3'' behind and start grinding.

With infantry (Ghouls + Skelies) you can even leave a gap between 2 ghouls enough for a sinlge skeleton to pass and trigger his combat since they can fit very well between the 1'' maximum distance of models in a unit. You can send that skeleton away once the combat starts.

Flying models work good as well (like Carin Wraiths) since they can reposition themselves behind the frontline easily.

What do you think?
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#45
If you're house-ruling bases as part of the model, sure. Otherwise, the model itself needs to be within an inch, which makes it hard to fit a model of another unit entirely between them.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#46
but small infantry models are usually smaller than their bases. Ignoring the base would actually give a bit more room to fill in.

Imagine this:
|°|°|°|
|°|°|°|
|°|°|°|

The |'s are zombies, and the °'s are skeletons. Technically, that is a valid formation since every model from each unit is within 1'' of each other!
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,117
#47
Actually, it occurs to me that any part of the model is part of the model, including weapons. Spear skellies actually have an easy time if you model them with the spear forward. Even without fitting models between each other, you can easily get that spear within .5 inches of the enemy over the head of some ghouls. Same with some creative re-posing of archai halberds.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#48
Yeah! my Archai has his halberd about 3'' beyond his main body, hehe.

Unintended as that may be, I hope it doesn't get everyone to model their weapons forward (like the Knight's lances, having only 1'' range, but being extended forwards). That's why I think I'll stick with bases as the model's limit for now.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#49
I agree with @EternallyUndying about get out your copy of Art of War. Formations and real tactics are a part of AoS. More so than before.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#50
I agree with @EternallyUndying about get out your copy of Art of War. Formations and real tactics are a part of AoS. More so than before.
And 90% of it is considered bs cheese tactics by the biggest proponents of the game on this board.

Bit of a split on exactly how far you should go with these very permissible rules.
 
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