BA - 8th Edition Review: Carsteins

[Bishop]

(Double post, just to post whats changed so far.. to see if we are all done, and that everyone agrees)

So far the changes are:

True Blood - 100pts
"The blood of this vampire flows as powerful and strong as Vashanesh himself. His strength of will is absolute and his touch can be felt for leagues around."
Only one True Blood vampire may be present per army. The True Blood Vampire must be the army general. This vampire gains a 4+ ward save.

A vampire with this power may command D3 friendly undead units to make a normal march move in the movement phase, regardless of distance. Any alive units that are within range of his vampiric aura are unbreakable, and if they are within this radius at the start of their turn and fleeing they will automatically rally.

Finally, this vampire may purchase the Carstein Ring for 50pts. The roll to see if he is resurrected is automatically passed if/when he dies, though he must be resurrected in a unit as normal.

Master of Storms - 50 pts
A vampire with this power knows all the spells from the Lore of Heavens, in addition to IoN (they do not roll for any other spells regardless of their level).

In addition they also know the following spell:

• Tempest 20+
  Focusing his dark will the vampire unleashes a terrible storm on the battlefield. Dark clouds cover the sky as hard rain and hail hammers down on the fighting warriors, carrying them away in a torrent of bloody and water.
  For the next turn no shooting of any kind is allowed, including warmachines. In addition every enemy unit in the battle must roll a D6, on a roll of 1 they have succumbed to the rain and can only move / charge / march at half their normal rate during their next movement phase.

The Rightful Ruler - 50pts
"Such is the aura of command this vampire exudes, that others are eclipsed in his presence"
Enemy units within 12" of the Rightful Ruler are unable to benefit from the BSB reroll ability and suffer -2 on all Leadership based tests. An enemy unit which is joined by the BSB will still gain the usual benefit given the close proximity of the armies banner.

Beast Affinity - 40 pts
"The Carsteins have always have an infinity with creatures of the night."
If this Vampire casts Invocation of Nehek targeting a unit of Dire Wolves then d6 wounds worth of models are raised, otherwise use the rules for IoN as normal.

A Vampire with Beast Affinity also gains the following spell:

• Unearthly Howl 8+
  Functions exactly as per the rules for Raise Dead, except a unit of Dire Wolves is raised instead.

Here is a list of (only the) changed equipment/items for von Carstein characters:

May choose one following weapon:
Great Weapon: Hero +8pts, Lord +12pts
Additional Hand Weapons Hero +4pts, Lord +8pts
Lance (only if mounted) Hero +4pts, Lord +8pts

Rapier
Prideful and arrogant, many Carsteins carry to battle their favoured blade, determined to prove all others are lesser than they.
Additional Hand Weapon. In challenges only, the vampire has +1 to hit.

edit:

• a) just a minor wording issue in True Blood power
  b) added in the changes discussed below (point values on Master of Storms and Beast Affinity)

/edit

 

[Montesque]

I like it, and would vote for the 40 pts for Beast Affinity. you can't do much else with just 5 pts, 10 gives you a little more flexibility in combinations with other powers.

I dunno about the Grt weapon for 12 pts for the hero, though. I mean, the S bonus is great, obviously, but on the other hand it takes a normally swift, high I vampire and makes it strike last, ALWAYS (especially now in 8th, when that includes the charge). Seems like a pretty even tradeoff IMO, so I'd maybe knock it down so it's 8 pts for both types of vampire. Just my 2 cents, anyway.

And good job catching the ward save issue with True Blood, I agree it should be separate from the ring, as Bishop's version is.

 

[Bishop]

Was thinking about a few more things:

• 
  Should we add in that the Rightful Ruler must be the army general, unless a True Blood is present?
  
  Point cost on Master of Storms. Is this intended to be Lord only... or could we drop it down to 50 so a Thrall can take it?
  
  Why is Tempest once per battle? If you want to keep it once per battle, I think that the casting cost can be toned down... 24 is crazy high! I agree with a high casting value if it's a normal spell... but at once per game, it seems too high to me.

I agree that Beast Affinity at 40 points seems fair.

The point costs for the weapon options are based on what Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions pay. Seems the closest comparison that I could find. (And the Hero Vampire pays 8 for a GW, only the Lord pays 12)

 

[Montesque]

Right, I knew the hero/lord differential, I was recommending equalizing them both at 8, though I suppose the chaos lord comparison is probably valid. Just that our generally higher "I" makes ASL into a significant penalty.

I don't know that we need to complicate things by modifying Rightful ruler...fluffwise it makes a certain amount of sense, but I think we should seek to avoid having a "hierarchy" of powers if at all possible...that just makes things rather complicated for no real good gaming reasons. That's my view, anyway.

Seems that thralls having Storm Lord would be fine, since it'd be their only power, and I agree that we either need to make tempest reusable or drop the point cost. (For comparison, see the Skaven's 13th spell, crazy high casting value, but is castable more than once per game.) If we want to keep it once per game, I would recommend putting it somewhere around...13? sound fair?

Though I must say, I think I prefer the reusable version to the cheap, once per game version.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

My thoughts:

Rightful Ruler: As Monteque said, no need to complicate it, its just that the vampire exudes that aura on other creatures, on other carsteins it is not so effective.

Points cost for weapons: I am fine with Bishops costings.

Master of Storms: I agree with lowering it to 50pts, keep the value casting high (though perhaps it is a tad high, maybe 20+?), and allow the spell to be reusable.

Other than that, looks great to me!

 

[Montesque]

Alright then, Bishop's points values it is then, and I think everyone is more or less in agreement about the other points?

 

[Bishop]

If it was 18+ to cast, then a caster lord (lvl 4) could reasonably cast this on 4 dice. A thrall would require 5 dice. Personally, that seems high enough to me. Most spells that cost 20+ will do way more damage then "no shooting for the turn".

 

[Montesque]

But then again, most spells, even at 20+, don't affect the entire field, AND have a chance of halving movement for all the enemy units as well, regardless of range. I think 20 is a good value, because even though we're making it recastable, I don't think we want it to be "reliable", per se, as getting it off is a pretty huge advantage for the VC against any shooty armies.

 

[Bishop]

We can try it out at 20+ and see how it goes... my thinking on it is, once you get to casting values that high it's going to go off on IF nearly as often as it will go off normally.

 

[Montesque]

Sounds good to me. Any other issues anybody sees with the characters?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Nope, I'm happy with the proposed changes, I'll let Bishop edit his post

There wasn't really much feedback on the armylist itself - do we think changes are needed?

 

[Montesque]

I like it pretty well as is, I just wanted to point out the disparity between this list's core choices and a couple of the others we've done. Particularly the Strigoi and the Blood Dragons, who suffer a huge lack of counting core choices compared to this list.

All that to say that I believe this is probably the best balanced list of all the ones we've devised so far, and that after some playtesting I would recommend we go back to those other lists and bring them up to this standard in terms of Type diversity (i.e. choices within core, within Special, etc.)

As for this list in particular, I can't see anything I'd change, personally

 

[Caleb Astar]

I agree.

The only option that is too much for me is the Drakenhoff Guard option. Is there something in the Von Carstein's fluff that explain why they would have better wights than other bloodlines? If not, Grave guards with a Wight king and the banner would be far enough, as this list is pretty powerful soon.

Indeed, with many choices and options and good overall units, it should be the list we refer to when we think to the other bloodlines.

 

[Bishop]

Well, I'm not sure on the background, but in the Storm of Chaos campaign bok (if you can track down a copy) there is an option to actually field "Drakkenhof Guard" (at +3 pts a model for HW, GW, and Full Plate)

will edit my post in a minute..

 

[Montesque]

Essentially, as I understand it fluffwise, the Drakenhoff guard are there to provide a bit more of a link between the Von Carstein Vampires and the Imperial culture, in that they are in many ways similar or identical to the Imperial Greatswords that every Elector Count maintains. That elite status is also the reason they're limited to 1 per army, because of the understanding that the current Von Carstein Count would in fact only have 1 unit to field in totum.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yes that is pretty much it Montesque - they are the undead equivalent of the Greatswords.

Also remember we are not here to justify previous choices, the previous people put in the time and effort agreeing on that and as such it should be respected. We only want to fix it if it doesn't work.

So if it doesn't look look like anything needs changing and we are all ok with the bloodline powers, shall we mark this one as done and move on to the next?

 

[Bishop]

I'm good... unless anyone else wants to add/comment on something.

 

[Montesque]

I'm good to go, like what we've got.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Excellent. I'll go and update the main thread now.....

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