basic vampire troops

[qball2kb]

Hi all,

First, long time lurker, first time poster, big fan of the forum.

Just wanted to ask about an issue that I have been thinking about for some time, and haven't found much else on the topic elsewhere. Feel free to point me in the right direction if I can't see for looking!

I think there are a distinct lack of actual vampires in a typical VC army. What about fielding a unit of 'basic' vampires as either core or special troops? Anyone else had similar thoughts?

I think it's safe to say that not all vampires are heroes or lords; the stat line of Blood Knights shows that there are vampires who exist who are not hugely more powerful than the common man, and it would be nice not to be confined to fielding such troops on horse back.

I've thought about using either the rules for Ghouls or Grave Guard to represent either new-born vampires, or humans that are under vampiric blood control.

That brings me onto the question of which models to use? I was thinking about using some models from either Brettonian/Empire ranges and converting them to make them more 'dark', for example Empire State Troops or Empire Greatswords (for Grave Guard with Great Weapons).

Anyone care to weigh in with ideas/suggestions?

Cheers

Q

 

[spineyrequiem]

You could have a look at some of Uziel's rules, I think he's got some for minor vampires of bloodlines other than Blood Dragon.

 

[qball2kb]

You could have a look at some of Uziel's rules, I think he's got some for minor vampires of bloodlines other than Blood Dragon.

That's some good information, thanks!

 

[Aren]

I also like the idea of vamp troops, just the problem is, vampires are just too powerful to be fielding a unit of 10 or even 5. Each vampire can take on most enemy heroes so a unit of them would be crazy. What would be nice is a unit of vamp thralls, half blooded humans or something. Something that is a bit vampire, so being stronger and faster than humans but not as good as a regular vamp. Something like chaos warriors, a very strong core unit, for an elite vamp army.

 

[Uziel]

Aren:

Have you missed the fact that there are already Vampire troops in the game, less powerful than Vampires/Vampire Thralls; namely the Blood Knights? Just pointing out that there is already a base stat-line that is established which one can work with for vampire "troops".
It doesn't help much that they can potentially take on other armies individual heroes when something like a skaven warpfire thrower hits them... The point is, most armies have ways to deal with them if they are not made too over the top.. There is also the cost to balance things out.

 

[Aren]

Uziel:

Maybe, but we can't drop the stat line for vampires lower than blood knights. Not without good explanation, and we can't have blood knight troops in core running around as that would make us ridiculous. And blood knights are weak vampires , as the more vamps a lord makes the weaker he and they are(and a lot of vampires were Mede in blood keep).( army book and the trilogy) so we can't make vamps weaker than blood knights. Ergo, the only option that is left is half blood vampires.

 

[Uziel]

Aren:

There are ways to make vampires "weaker" than Blood Knights, but I agree that there isn't much to go on as far as the stats themselves go etc. Not all the bloodlines are the knightly types, which typically reduces the amount of armour worn, weapon options, etc. One can also do some modification on account of the various bloodlines, including slight stat mods, but overall I agree that we can't make Vampires "weaker" than Blood Knights, just a bit different.

Curious about one thing, which trilogy are you referring to when you talk about lots of vampires being made in Blood Keep? Should that be castle Drakenhof perhaps?

If vampires start sparkling in warhammer, I'll send GW a long letter before I have a GW bonfire here..

 

[Aren]

Uziel:
Nah, armybook when talking about blood keep and the von carstein trilogy when referring to vampires being weaker with more thralls. And varhgeists are vampires but different, we already have that. And blood knights completely naked, no equipment or anything are still very dangerous, so true vampires in core are just too powerful. So I think that thralls is the best option for core. But vampiric infantry in special, bk sats with heavy armour and options for various weapons I think would be interesting. Or even very small units of vamps as assassins, or skirmishers, which would look really good I think as Altair from AC.....what I'm getting at is how much can you change a vampire and still call it a vampire?.....

 

[Uziel]

Aren:

If you are talking about Vampires being Core, then I agree completely. Not possible, under any circumstances...
You said troops above, and I had a somewhat broader definition if this as a basis for my answers.

That said, I do have some Vampire Troop options made for my Bloodlines army list, Von Carsteins (as presented in the trilogy), but more will be featured once I get started on it again.

 

[The_Peacemaker]

Blood Knight stats are Human Knights who have become vampires.
In other words - human nobles, the elite, who are vampires.

So look at a Human Knight and compare the stats to the blood knights.
+1 Weapon Skill, +2 strength, +1 Toughness, +2 Initiative, +1 attack.

For basic human to basic vampire this seems kinda high. Obviously the stats are a representation for game purposes.

If your looking for a Peasant Human who was grabbed off the street and given the blood kiss then a few days later told to march into battle, I'd say its closer to the Grave Guard Stat line. They are stronger and tougher but haven't had much practice with their New abilities yet so WS, I, A, are not as high. The randomness of their new abilities shows itself in the form of a lucky killing blow. Example: New vamp swings super hard and super fast but not sure how he did it - needs more practice.

 

[jediguru]

I really like this idea and I think the idea of using vampires with a grave guard stat line is probably the best way to go.
Another idea would be to use the vargheist's rules but have 3 Vampires representing each wound on a 40mm base. Almost like the spirit host models.

 

[logan054]

Uziel:

Maybe, but we can't drop the stat line for vampires lower than blood knights.

I think what you talking about is having a S5 WS4 chaos warrior with lower leadership (like 5/6), then just make them rare and give them options to represent the different bloodlines:

Blooddragons: +1WS, heavy armour, shield
Lahmian: ASF
Strigo: skirmish, posion attacks
Necrach: maybe count a single wizard based on unit size.

 

[Uziel]

Uziel:

Maybe, but we can't drop the stat line for vampires lower than blood knights.

I think what you talking about is having a S5 WS4 chaos warrior with lower leadership (like 5/6), then just make them rare and give them options to represent the different bloodlines:

Blooddragons: +1WS, heavy armour, shield
Lahmian: ASF
Strigo: skirmish, posion attacks
Necrach: maybe count a single wizard based on unit size.

Well, yes and no.

Yes in the sense that the vampire "troops" will be around the power level of chaos warriors (most likely slightly better stat-wise, but not so well-equipped).

No in the sense that I think that some of the bloodlines would never have the numbers or inclination to make vampire "troops" for any sensible reason. The Von Carsteins and the Blood Dragons are really the only ones in my book that can field Vampire "troops" as a form of proper regiment in my view, but that doesn't mean that there is not other ways to increase the "Vampiric influence" of other bloodline armies as well.

To name an example, one of the Bloodlines that I'm struggling a bit with for the Bloodline Legacies project is the Lahmians, but I think I might go for a mixed unit solution as a rare or special choice for them, to increase the number of vampires in the list. I'm thinking that if the Lahmians first go to war, it would be more natural for them as vampires to gather in smaller "packs" and surround themselves with their swains for protection. This could result in a unit of lets say 25 human swains, with 3 Lahmians Vampires (1 for each 1-10 swains) mixed in. Not Lahmian Hero lvl Vampires mind you, but something like the Blood Knights with Lahmian adjustments..
This is just an idea, but I think it fits much better than a all-out Lahmian Vampire unit on its own.

 

[Rhast]

Vampire Thralls 20 points. 5-20.

M 6
WS 4
S 5
T 4
I Same as Blood Knights
A 2
LD 4

Great Weapon for +3 each.
Champion (+1 WS, +1 Attack, +1 LD) for 40. Banner for 20. Musician for 10.

Special Rules:
Count as having double leadership when rolling for march moves

Von Carstein: Units in base contact take 1 S1 hit at end of every combat turn for every model in base contact with a Von Carstein Vampire.
Blood Dragons +8 point/model: +1 WS, Full plate (4+) armor and shield
Lahmia +3 points/model: +1 I, Always Strike First, may not use Great Weapon
Strigoi +5 points/model: +1 Attack, Hatred, 6+ Ward Save. May not carry any equipment.
Necrarch +3 points/model: -1 Weapon Skill. Every model in the unit can revive one wound in a nearby unit within 12 inches using the following table:
1-5 points: Automatic. 6-10 points: on a 2+. 11-15 points on a 3+. 16-20 points on a 4+. 21-35 points on a 5+. 36+ points on a 6. Can always revive themself (own unit) on one less than usually on the table. (ie. 5+ is 4+).


How do this look?

Hard hitting infantry, but also very fragile and expensive. (archers and blackpowder rapes them!). Very low LD to represent the lack of discipline, but the double LD for march moves make so their natural vampire powers make them move fast even near enemies.

Also, in case the parry bonus (shield + HW) bonus do not exist anymore, then add this as special rule to Blood Dragons as well. Making them a kind of anvil unit or hard hitting (S7 but less armor) unit.

 

[Uziel]

Rhast:

Your stats don't look too bad overall, but I must say I disagree with the incredibly low LD. "Newly" created vampires might not be the most disciplined individuals there is, but I find it hard to reason them as that cowardly/undisciplined etc.
I'm not saying that there is not a "coward" hidden within most vampires (as the prospect of dying is for them more frightening than for humans), but they also have a huge confidence boost with their new abilities to match this as well. I'm not saying they are in any way or form very disciplined, but somewhere in the 6-8 Ld range (depending on bloodline) seems more reasonable too me.

That said, I should perhaps point out that I find the idea that a Vampire Lord has LD 10, while a Vampire Hero only has LD 7 more than a little far fetched as well and I really hate the fact that vampires count as Undead for the purposes of break tests and unstable etc.. They loose so much personality and diversity due to the way GW has chosen to handle this, that I frequently find myself quite annoyed. when has a Vampire ever turned to dust because his zombies got a beating?? Any creature of an independent mind should follow the normal rules for break tests and so on. Sorry about the little rant there.

Why Great Weapons for "all"? Yes, I know that they are pretty damn good in game terms, but it does seem more than a little out of place to me.. Vampires are typically not ones to carry such weaponry, probably because they really don't have too with their innate strength. The damage a Vampire could do with just a longsword is more than enough to keep the vampire confident, as well as his enemies scared..

Personally I really can't picture the Strigoi and especially the Necrarchs ever having pure units of vampires in this way, as it really doesn't go with their background at all. Others might think differently however. Just my opinion.

Good luck with it though.

 

[Rhast]

Rhast:

Your stats don't look too bad overall, but I must say I disagree with the incredibly low LD. "Newly" created vampires might not be the most disciplined individuals there is, but I find it hard to reason them as that cowardly/undisciplined etc.
I'm not saying that there is not a "coward" hidden within most vampires (as the prospect of dying is for them more frightening than for humans), but they also have a huge confidence boost with their new abilities to match this as well. I'm not saying they are in any way or form very disciplined, but somewhere in the 6-8 Ld range (depending on bloodline) seems more reasonable too me.

That said, I should perhaps point out that I find the idea that a Vampire Lord has LD 10, while a Vampire Hero only has LD 7 more than a little far fetched as well and I really hate the fact that vampires count as Undead for the purposes of break tests and unstable etc.. They loose so much personality and diversity due to the way GW has chosen to handle this, that I frequently find myself quite annoyed. when has a Vampire ever turned to dust because his zombies got a beating?? Any creature of an independent mind should follow the normal rules for break tests and so on. Sorry about the little rant there.

Why Great Weapons for "all"? Yes, I know that they are pretty damn good in game terms, but it does seem more than a little out of place to me.. Vampires are typically not ones to carry such weaponry, probably because they really don't have too with their innate strength. The damage a Vampire could do with just a longsword is more than enough to keep the vampire confident, as well as his enemies scared..

Personally I really can't picture the Strigoi and especially the Necrarchs ever having pure units of vampires in this way, as it really doesn't go with their background at all. Others might think differently however. Just my opinion.

Good luck with it though.

Some changes:
Additional Hand Weapon for all but Strigoi and Necrach. 3 (or 4) points.
Great Weapon: Only for Blood Dragons. Still 4 points.

Special Rule: Additional Hand Weapons also give 6+ ward save.
Special Rule: Newborn. New vampires are ruthless and bloodthirsty, but also cowardly. Place a marker every time the unit has lost a fight. Every marker (up to 3) will decrease the unit leadership for all regards except march move tests (they are still bloodthirsty). Every time they win a combat, you may remove one marker.

Strigoi Special Rule: Skirmish Unit and recieve -2 to hit instead of the normal -1 due to their grotesque form. Only works against units not immune to pshycology.

Also, Strigoi +6 points instead of +5.

EDIT: And the new LD will of course be 7....
EDIT 2: Also change the 1 S 1 hit for every model in base contact, to number of models in the units recieved as S1 hits equally to all units in base contact with the unit.

 

[logan054]

How do this look?

Not all that different to what I posted but of course I forgot M6, do, come to think of it as blood knights are leadership 7, so should all the other thralls.

Do lahmians need I6 if they already have ASF? I also don't see the point in giving strigo hatred, not when lahmians have ASF, it just makes them a weaker version of the unit. I also think great weapons is over the took when they already have S5.

 

[Rhast]

How do this look?

Not all that different to what I posted but of course I forgot M6, do, come to think of it as blood knights are leadership 7, so should all the other thralls.

Do lahmians need I6 if they already have ASF? I also don't see the point in giving strigo hatred, not when lahmians have ASF, it just makes them a weaker version of the unit. I also think great weapons is over the took when they already have S5.

You are right. I forgot ASF now also give reroll.

After consideration I have decided to summarise my suggestion as below. I changed alot, and made the starting unit weaker, but adding stronger and more distinctive bloodlines as options. Strigoi, as an example, increase point cost from 16 to 24!.
The standard unit I compared with Grave Guard. With 1 higher WS and 1 more attack, they cost 3-4 points more (I dont have the newest army book ). However, the unit have no armor whatsoever, so they fall easily to shootings and massed attacks. (Imagine horde goblins with spears!).


Vampire Thralls
Point Cost: 16
Unit size 5-20
M 6
WS 4
S 4
T 4
I 4
A 2
LD 7

Special Rules:
-----Newborn. Whenever this unit lose a combat, put a marker. This marker decrease the units LD by 1. Whenever this unit wins a combat, remove a marker. Maximum of 3 markers at any given time.
-----Blood Kiss. The player may opt to pick any number of models in base contact with the enemy, and make one special attack instead of the usual number of attacks. If the attack is succesfull, roll a die. On a 2+ a Vampire Minion is created as per statline below. These Vampire Minions are added to the unit and may increase the unit beyond normal unit size. Vampire Minions can not be reincarnated no matter the source.
-----Undisciplined. The unit will always count as having at most one rank.
-----Inheritance. The player must pick a bloodline when creating his army list.

Vampire Minion
M 6
WS 2
S 4
T 3
A 2
LD 5


Equipment:
Champion (+1 WS, +1S +1A, +1 LD) 20 points. May not have musician or banner.

Bloodlines:
-----Von Carstein +3 points. Every Vampire Thrall in the unit adds 1 S1 automatic hits to an enemy unit of the Vampire players choice. Due to the blood sucking nature of the bats attacking the enemy, all unsaved wounds from these attacks immediately generate another. (However these bonus attacks do not trigger more bonus attacks).
-----Blood Dragons +6. Obsessed with Martial Arts, these vampires fight in Full Plate armour with a hand weapon and shield, totalling a armor save of 2+. If upgraded with greatweapon and fighting with those, save is reduced to 4+. Blood Dragons recieve +1 WS.
-----Strigoi +8. Vicious creatures who disregard their own safety due to their massive frames, preferring brute force to smash their enemies. -2 Weapon Skill, +1 Strenght, +2 Attacks. Hatred.
-----Lahmia +2 points. +3 Initiative. All models in base contact with a Lahmia Vampire must pass a Leadership Test or be hit automatically (by all enemy attacks).
-----Necrarch +4 points. -1 WS. For every 5 models in the unit the owner may roll a die for extra power dice/dispel dice, exactly as if it had been a wizard. (ie. 15 man large unit = 3 die).
At the end of the enemys magic phase, the Necrach unit can revive one wound in a nearby unit within 12 inches using the following table:
1-5 points: Automatic.
6-10 points: on a 2+.
11-15 points on a 3+.
16-20 points on a 4+.
21-35 points on a 5+.
36+ points on a 6.
Can always revive themself (own unit) on one less than usually on the table. (ie. 5+ is 4+).

 

[logan054]

Looking at that Blood dragons are strigo are clearly the best, I'm not sure why anyone would take lahmians in the age of BSB's rerolling all leadership test, I also don't know why you have lowered the strength, if we look at the coven of throne and blood knights its clear that a vampire thrall has WS5, S5, A2 and ld7, it also very clear that ASF is a lahmian trait (as the hand maidens have it).

Maybe it should be something more like this

Strigo Thrall M6 WS4 b3 S5 T4 W1 I6 A2 Ld6
Vampire Thrall M6 WS5 BS3 S5 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld7

Blood Dragons: Frenzy, Heavy armour, shield, any model may accept a challege, champion may take a 25pts magical weapon
Lahmian: ASF, additional hand weapon, enemy models wishing to attack them must take a leadership test at -1, if they fail they suffer a -1 to hit
Strigo: Regenerate 5+, poison attack
Necrarch: may channel power and dispel dice, may cast IoN as a lvl x wizard (x determined by the unit size), or +x to IoN rolls with 12"

 

[Lord Klobuk]

Hello there

My take on this fluffwise Vampires are supposed to be terrorfaing creatures,some of the most frightening things in the Warhammer World. Remember the ridiculous stats and point cost of the Vampire Lord in 6th edition ?No character except a Greater Demon(To me honestly not really a character despite what the rules say) could compare.

Just having regular vamp troops in the core,despite some nice stats cant really compare to the mentioned above and to me it would "brake" the terrorfaing image of the Warhammer Vampire.

Just imagine empire swordsman going home saying:"Yeah great battle today Mike we killed a unit of 20 today".OK There are Blood Knights(who imho need a 1+ As and perhaps +1 WS to justify their cost and fluff) but they are described as the strongest cavalry in the WH World,one of them comes close in power to the Hero vamp so they get a pass.

My point being you need be a exceptional Hero to be able to defeat a Vampire in a duel not a regular guy...

Btw. There are also Vargeists(they are legit vamp troops) and the Varghulf not just Blood Knights.

Though I understand your idea,your supposed to play an army called Vampire Counts and then you field only 2 or 3 vampires...first time my friend saw me playing he asked me "Where are all the Vampires ?"

Cheers!

 

[BloodbathMcGrath]

I like the idea of vampire shock troops! Kind of a nifty idea for the counts, especially since our grave guard aren't exactly astonishingly great combatants. I like the state lines and ideas from Logan and Rhast. Kind of leaning on Logan's side here though, close to Blood Knights, plus a few extra powers, not a laundry list of extra rules. Plus vampires all still have The Hunger, right? If you used this rule for the unit instead of just a vampiric model, it could make them good elite troops that occasionally pop back to life with out any spells! Kind of scary

 

[The Sun King]

I like the idea of vampire shock troops! Kind of a nifty idea for the counts, especially since our grave guard aren't exactly astonishingly great combatants.

Come again? GG's are one of the most solid infantry units in the game. It's pretty rare to find a unit with Heavy armor, killing blow, T4, unbreakable, fear causing and with great weapons for that kind of points.

 

[logan054]

Grave guard are certainly very good, I do think the problem is how many you need for a decent unit (maybe thats just me and my silly expensive conversions lol).

 

[The Sun King]

I know how you feel Logan I've converted my entire army from Empire... has taken around 1 year, and I'm not done yet(working on fimirs as Crypt Horrors at the moment). I made my GG from Empire Greatswords. Pretty expensive, but holy crap do they look good.

 

[logan054]

I know how you feel Logan I've converted my entire army from Empire... has taken around 1 year, and I'm not done yet(working on fimirs as Crypt Horrors at the moment). I made my GG from Empire Greatswords. Pretty expensive, but holy crap do they look good.

Thats cheap! try using teutogen guard