Black Knights vs Grave Guard

[Vampire Count]

Ok, I picked up a box of skeletons and zombies last night - all assembled and the skeletons are half-painted already. I can't get over how awesome the skeleton models are! I plan to pick up a few more boxes of core, and a character or two, before moving on to something more elaborate... I'm thinking Grave Guard or Black Knights. So far I have the following summary, from reading these forums, from experience, and from common sense:

Grave Guard:
+ Hit harder with Great Weapons
+ More bodies, more wounds
+ Cheaper in points
+ Can easily stay in range of IoN
+ Easier to raise
- More models to paint, less variety in the army

Black Knights
+ More mobile
+ 2+ save
+ Models are absolutely fantastic
+ Less models raised per cast, but more points raised per cast, usually.
- May drift out of IoN range
- Only S4 after the first round

I'm leaning towards Black Knights mainly to provide some variety from hordes of infantry. Also I'm extremely worried about defense on my Vampire Lord, leaving him with a 3+ armour save on foot makes me nervious, so I was thinking of a mounted one with a 1+ rerollable save, I'll sleep much easier at night with that one. That also solves the problem of the Knights being out of IoN range, but it introduces the problem of the Vampire drifting too far away from the infantry lines! However I envision by careful positioning, and moving rhe infantry before moving the Knights, I should still be able to march up with the general for the first couple of turns, and by then I'll be upon the enemy anyway.

Does anyone have anything to add in favour of either Black Knights or Grave Guard? I'm thinking Grave Guard are the safer bet but I'm hoping that Black Knights are viable too (A unit of 7 with the Lord at 1000/1500 points, increasing to 9 with Lord at 2000. At higher points, say 2500+, I'd probably take a large unit of each, but it will be a while before I get to that stage!).

 

[Hutobega]

Black knights are a very strong unit but even at the 1500 point I would use 9 simply to get a rank in case you get a nice flank charge off. 4 do not make a rank and thus will not negate their steadfast. I would say try 8 knight and add in a vamp and a white king Might make for a scary unit, and not toooo expensive.

 

[JMS]

Black knights are a very strong unit but even at the 1500 point I would use 9 simply to get a rank in case you get a nice flank charge off. 4 do not make a rank and thus will not negate their steadfast. I would say try 8 knight and add in a vamp and a white king Might make for a scary unit, and not toooo expensive.

Flank charging with a unit with a rank will not negate steadfast only the rank bonus - though that is still nice if you are knocking 3 off the enemies combat resolution score...

J

 

[rothgar13]

I would never consider Black Knights as an alternative to Grave Guard - how the heck are you going to break anyone, or deal with enemy Hordes? You won't have the numbers, and after the first turn you won't have the punch. Flanking is risky with Ghouls and Skeletons as your anvils, and suicidal if you favor Zombies. And have you read the rules for Look Out, Sir! lately (you need 5 rank-and-file models to provide the roll)? If you put a Vamp Lord in a unit of Black Knights, every artillery player will be licking his chops and blasting that unit with everything they have - they bring the numbers on it down, then they send a cannonball right at your Lord's face.

What Black Knights CAN do well, however, is complement Grave Guard. Slamming some S6 attacks into someone's flank that don't give up any CR and can potentially disrupt ranks can turn a fight around.

 

[GhoulKing505]

They compliment Ghouls really well if you have a character in the unit or if you take the staff of damnation. I generally take a wight king bsb with the razor standard in a unit of ghouls. They pack quite a punch against almost anything.

 

[MadLarkin]

Black knights can be a fantastic anvil and are the best bodyguard to a lord IMO

They're cheap enough to take 10-15 as a mainline unit and hit hard while taking a punch. With a combat lord in there charge a unit in the front and flank with a monster, vargheist or grave guard with good maneuvering and vanhels. Even without denying steadfast the lord himself will carve through units so you'd won't be in combat too long unless you go up against something 50+ strong.

 

[bobajelly]

Black knights can be a fantastic anvil and are the best bodyguard to a lord IMO

They're cheap enough to take 10-15 as a mainline unit and hit hard while taking a punch. With a combat lord in there charge a unit in the front and flank with a monster, vargheist or grave guard with good maneuvering and vanhels. Even without denying steadfast the lord himself will carve through units so you'd won't be in combat too long unless you go up against something 50+ strong.

I think you mean 'hammer' not 'anvil' and yes I would agree that BK can be very hitty when kitted out properly.

 

[Wojmir Von Carstein]

They're cheap enough to take 10-15 as a mainline unit and hit hard while taking a punch. With a combat lord in there charge a unit in the front and flank with a monster, vargheist or grave guard.

This is true but this this setup sounds too good to be true. After all who will let you charge their prize unit with a huge unit of blackknighs with Lord and monster on flank lol. Of course this will brake the enemy. You are throwing about 1200 points against one unit....

 

[Ring87]

This is the 10 million dollar question. How you answer it depends on your play style. You should build your army around your decision.

For instance If you go Black Knights with Combat lord a Terrorghiest would be a great compliment. Your support unit should be able to keep up. Crypt Horror are by far the best new unit and move 6 so could keep the pace as well. I think having your Lord be a Level 4 would help with the raising as there is no more Blooddrinker. Not having Bloodrinker to raise the Knights make this Black Knight hammer more risky.

What ever you choose just take enough chaff/deployments to pick your matchups. Have a way to remove any enemy redirectors and some magic that best supports either the knights or the guard.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

IMO greatweapon trumps lance and more bodies trumps better armor save.

 

[Tim]

You could take both in a list, although I have trouble doing in that since I tried out the Hexwraiths having trouble not including those lol.

 

[Andrey4]

I personally think that GG are better, in combos with CH, Mortis Engine and CC. A lot of bodies with 5+ and 6++ , plus 6 strength all the battle + the anvil of CH with 4++ seems superb for me. The only thing i don't know are hexwraith, i just didn't tested them.

 

[Guidebot]

Honestly, I'm having difficulty understanding the role that cavalry play in this game. Sure, they get a high save (usually), are a bit faster, and get a stomp, but that doesn't seem enough to make them much different (high save is made up for by more wounds on infantry, stomp by more attacks on inf, so that really just leaves speed and they aren't <i>that</i> much faster). Black knights just seem a bit 'meh'. So did the TK cav when I looked there. So do blood knights.

Am I missing something?

 

[Vampire Count]

Honestly, I'm having difficulty understanding the role that cavalry play in this game. Sure, they get a high save (usually), are a bit faster, and get a stomp, but that doesn't seem enough to make them much different (high save is made up for by more wounds on infantry, stomp by more attacks on inf, so that really just leaves speed and they aren't <i>that</i> much faster). Black knights just seem a bit 'meh'. So did the TK cav when I looked there. So do blood knights.

Am I missing something?

Yes - cavalry don't get a stomp
I too think cavalry are a bit lacking this edition, I think the models are what will swing it for me in the end. And Black Knights are quite cheap, I think, for S4 T4 2+ save KB cavalry. Fully kitted out, they're almost 10 points cheaper than saurus cavalry - who suffer from Stupidity!

 

[N.I.B]

It's all about the build - regardless if you invest heavy into Grave Guards or Black Knights, you need to build your list and strategy around your choice. Gone are the days of sending away 10 knights with a vampire (or Varghulf beside) on their own.

Of the two, I think the most common unit will continue to be Grave Guards. The defensive build is easier to play, and most of the tempting new models (the chariots and Crypt Horrors) have synergies that works best with infantry blocks. Also, Black Knights suffer more from the loss of Vanhels charges.

My guess is the fast attack style (Black Knights) will continue to be reserved for the top players. It's an unforgiving build that requires a lot from the general.

 

[Burnanation]

I've found Black Knights to be OK. People do spend a chunk of their shooting/magic to take them out. They can move through terrain that would hinder or force other units to go around, which I believe is their biggest plus.

If you take that ability into account you can really hamper your opponent's choices in the movement phase if they are threatened by a flank charge that they can not easily deal with because of the terrain.

But when it comes to that I'd rather just have some hexwraiths.

 

[GhoulKing505]

The only plus is really the fact that they never take dangerous terrain tests. It's really really nice sometimes. Cavalry are good for other armies but for vampire counts not so much. The ability to regrow models makes the armor the nights get basically useless in comparison to GG. If we couldn't regrow models the black knights would be a lot better.

 

[The Dread King]

Can you put Kemmler and Krell in a black knight unit? NO.
That's why I prefer GG.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Can you put Kemmler and Krell in a black knight unit? NO.
That's why I prefer GG.

You could actually do it. It just wouldn't benefit you at all. You can't make way, no look out sir, they have to be on the outside, the knight's movement is slowed to that of kemmler's and krell's, and kemler's sword does nothing in a unit of black knights.

 

[The Dread King]

When I said "NO" I meant theoretically NO. It just makes no sense. You can put mounted manny in them, but then they don't have ethereal movement.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Best place for manny is a blood knight deathstar with a combat character or two. Then have a master necro or necro with the staff of damnation in the second rank. Put the obsidian amulet on someone in there as well.

Now if only this build wasn't a million points. :tongue:

 

[The Dread King]

This unit is too expensive-I don't mean that it's not worth its points, but you're potentially throwing three casters away from the main block of your army. Also, every ranged weapon/template spell/pit of shades/overpowered, broken skaven spell/hellheart/other annoying stuff will e trained on that unit. The dreaded thirteenth spell, which removes 4D6 models from an enemy unit, would probably wipe three powerful characters from the game, along with a whole unit of blood knights. Not only would you crumble for eternity, but you would also have lost a lot of points and probably the game.
If you took a dispel scroll, saved your dispel dice and made sure that you took out enemy casters and war machines, this tactic might work. But I would have to be extremely careful if I brought it near a rat.
I don't put Manny in black knights anyway, besides, I only use him for massive games. Kemmmler and Krell seem to be more to my liking in smaller games. I have Manny on foot (or on a fulcrum to summon grave guard) so he can revive the army and keep it moving. He goes in the GG horde.

 

[Chaos_Born]

The dreaded thirteenth spell can only affect infantry. If it could be cast on anyone then ogres would be royally screwed vs a single grey seer

 

[The Dread King]

Well, there are other spells that can hurt-Curse of da Bad Moon on the higher level, pit of shades, purple sun of xereus etc.

 

[MadLarkin]

Black knights can be a fantastic anvil and are the best bodyguard to a lord IMO

They're cheap enough to take 10-15 as a mainline unit and hit hard while taking a punch. With a combat lord in there charge a unit in the front and flank with a monster, vargheist or grave guard with good maneuvering and vanhels. Even without denying steadfast the lord himself will carve through units so you'd won't be in combat too long unless you go up against something 50+ strong.

I think you mean 'hammer' not 'anvil' and yes I would agree that BK can be very hitty when kitted out properly.

I actually do mean anvil. High toughness and great save means few casualties. If I don't put my lord with them I use them as an anvil. If I put my lord in then I use them as a line breaker. Either way usually straight down the middle at their best unit. Your anvil just needs to hold, we don't need ranks. Its a plus that they pack a punch.

I use grave guard as well in 2.5k and they attack the unit that's protecting the flank of whatever my BK are engaging, more often than not it's a deep core unit that my grave guard ( with wight king) carve through, leaving them to engage the flank.