But it never says it. It hints at it but on page50 you get a concrete statement of something that will always happen.
Coven Throne BSB
- Thread starter RobTheWise
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Johnny-Crass said:
"When you roll to hit."
Under roll to hit it says to look at the table to find the roll to hit. WS 0 isn't there.
WS 0 isn't on the to hit table, so you can't find what your roll to hit is (before modifiers), so you can't attack.
You can't just skip one step in the process.
Why do you assume it's a 6+ why not a 5+? You assume 6+ because you can't find WS 0 on the table.
GW is a permissive rule set. If it does not say you can do something you can't do it.
The game rules do not say you can make WS 0 melee attacks (there are no attack roll values) so you cannot assume you can make them. So fact that attack rolls cannot be modified to worse then 6+ is irrelevant since the rules offer you no permission to roll for WS 0 in the first place.
Yanda
Black Knight
I agree with Max Zero. The way I see it is the "6 is always a hit" applys to things that would for whatever reason require a 7 to hit. Whereas WS 0 makes you unable to use melee weapons. You cant just makeup WS 0 on the chart. Its not there because it doesnt exist.
It does exist though. RAW a roll of a 6 always hits. There is no way around this as RAW it never explicitly states that WS0 can not attack, they just can not defend themselves which means they are automatically hit.
Johnny-Crass said:
Hold it right there!
"RAW it never explicitly states that WS0 can not attack,"
It never says they can either. As said before the rules are a permissive rule set. If they don't allow you to do something then you can't do it. You can't assume anything.
The burden of proof is on you to show how the rulebook allows WS 0 melee attacks. According to the BRB WS 0 melee attacks do not exist hence why they don't appear on the hit roll table.
You need to show where the BRB acknowledges WS 0 melee attack existence.
Oh another note, another dirty trick with the Coven Throne:
Everyone fears cannons with their Thrones since they don't roll to hit. One way to help screen you Coven Throne is to place some MI 1" in front of them (Crypt Horrors are perfect for this). Since the CH are MI if the other player tries to bounce a cannon into your Throne (the optimal target spot is about 8" short of the Throne) then the Cannonball will almost certainly bounce into the CH and if it fails to kill every CH it hits then the Cannon ball stops. They can't target the 1" zone between the CH and Throne (not in LOS) so they have to target the Throne itself and with 2-10" of further travel unless they roll a 2 they overshoot.
Drastically lowers a Cannons chance of hitting.
Works even better for Mortis Engines since they give CH a 4+ regen. Watch out for Cannons with Runes of Burning.
They acknowledge them with all other attacks on page 50 where it says ANY attack ALWAYS hits on a 6. It does not say that having WS0 means you can not attack so you can attack if you meet all the legal requirements for attacks. Are you in close combat? Yes. Are you in BTB or a supporting rank? Yes. Well golly that means you can make a legal attack no matter your WS.
Johnny-Crass said:
It does not say any attack.
"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and natural dice score of 1 always misses."
The WS 0 attacks have no roll as you can see from the to hit table. You have yet to show anything that disproves that.
"Well golly that means you can make a legal attack no matter your WS."
That is an assumption.
The rules do not permit you to make melee attacks with no WS. If you know otherwise cite the page.
This is true RAW.
Johnny-Crass said:
Incorrect.
0 and - have been shown to be interchangeable in both official FAQs and in the BRB.
page 4:
"Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (often shown as a dash: '-') for certain characteristics, which means they have no ability whatsoever in that skill."
As far as the rules are concerned they are the same thing.
lost_shadow
Ghoul
Just a quick question here, I thought characteristics could not be reduced below 1 or above 10, or does that only apply to spells?
If I have an attack characteristic am in close combat and am weapon skill 0 i will roll dice and declare hits on 6s. You go get the judge if you got a problem with it. Im with Johnny on this one. Im not shure regarding Lost Shadows question. As it is more fun to have abilities than not id go with not below 1 or above 10 but I have seen talk of things like Yetis auto hitting when opponents fail fear tests.
Basically, if I've learnt anything from lurking on these forums is that Johnny is right nearly everytime - I think this is one of those times and agree with his statements.
lost_shadow
Ghoul
lynks said:
Yes i know this, but in the magic section it says that spells can NEVER reduce a characteristic below 1 or above 10 unless it speicifially says so (like the skaven perminant -T spell which says they can be put down to T0)
I just wondered if it applied to everything and not just spells
Thindol
Grave Guard
Grendelchild said:
Quit bag licking Crass. We don't need his head any bigger. His parents already had to widen the doors in the house.
This is the first paragraph in the "Fight A Round Of Close Combat" chapter.
"Just as all eligible units (i.e. those in base contact
with the enemy) must fight in close combat,
similarly all models in base contact with an
enemy must fight. Models cannot elect not to
strike, nor can they normally be prevented from
doing so"
If Warhammer is indeed a permissive rule set, then by this paragraph, you actually need permission NOT to attack.
Following this order . . . ;
"Who Can Strike?"
"Models can fight if they are in base contact
with an enemy model when it is their chance
to attack. . . "
By the above definition, we learnt that all models that can fight may not be prevented from doing do. So all models in base contact must attack.
"How Many Attacks?"
"Models in base contact with one or more
enemies strike a number of blows equal to
their Attacks characteristic."
"Roll to hit"
Roll a D6 for each attack. Compare the
Weapon Skill of the attacker and the defender
to "determine the score required to hit"
-So you roll a d6 for each attack (note, there has been no mention of WS at all until this point).
-You look up the results comparing the enemy weapon skill to your own.
This is important. "determine the score required to hit"
The table has one purpose, and one purpose only. I bet you can't guess what?
The table does not determine whether or not you roll any dice.
"But wait? my WS value is not on the table? What do all these dice I just rolled mean? If only there was something in Warhammers permisive ruleset that told me what happens now . . . ah ha! -
"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls,
but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a
natural dice score of 1 always misses."
In summery:
- If you are base to base (or meet the other requirements for attacking) you must attack.
- You roll a d6 for each attack you are able to make.
- Then look at the table.
- Can't work it out with the table? There is a rule that says 6's always hit.
This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that WS0 models not only can, but MUST make attacks in close combat.
According to the first paragraph of the "Fight A Round Of Close Combat" chapter, I'd say the burden of proof is on you to say they can not. Because no where in the book does it say that WS0 models may not attack.
Example of an ability that prevents attacks being made;
Armour of Heroes (from the High Elves book)
Heavy Armour. In order to allocate close combat attacks against the wearer, an opponent must first pass a Leadership Test. Test each Close Combat phase. If the test is failed, the enemy may not attack.
"Just as all eligible units (i.e. those in base contact
with the enemy) must fight in close combat,
similarly all models in base contact with an
enemy must fight. Models cannot elect not to
strike, nor can they normally be prevented from
doing so"
If Warhammer is indeed a permissive rule set, then by this paragraph, you actually need permission NOT to attack.
Following this order . . . ;
"Who Can Strike?"
"Models can fight if they are in base contact
with an enemy model when it is their chance
to attack. . . "
By the above definition, we learnt that all models that can fight may not be prevented from doing do. So all models in base contact must attack.
"How Many Attacks?"
"Models in base contact with one or more
enemies strike a number of blows equal to
their Attacks characteristic."
"Roll to hit"
Roll a D6 for each attack. Compare the
Weapon Skill of the attacker and the defender
to "determine the score required to hit"
-So you roll a d6 for each attack (note, there has been no mention of WS at all until this point).
-You look up the results comparing the enemy weapon skill to your own.
This is important. "determine the score required to hit"
The table has one purpose, and one purpose only. I bet you can't guess what?
The table does not determine whether or not you roll any dice.
"But wait? my WS value is not on the table? What do all these dice I just rolled mean? If only there was something in Warhammers permisive ruleset that told me what happens now . . . ah ha! -
"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls,
but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a
natural dice score of 1 always misses."
In summery:
- If you are base to base (or meet the other requirements for attacking) you must attack.
- You roll a d6 for each attack you are able to make.
- Then look at the table.
- Can't work it out with the table? There is a rule that says 6's always hit.
This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that WS0 models not only can, but MUST make attacks in close combat.
Max zero said:
According to the first paragraph of the "Fight A Round Of Close Combat" chapter, I'd say the burden of proof is on you to say they can not. Because no where in the book does it say that WS0 models may not attack.
Example of an ability that prevents attacks being made;
Armour of Heroes (from the High Elves book)
Heavy Armour. In order to allocate close combat attacks against the wearer, an opponent must first pass a Leadership Test. Test each Close Combat phase. If the test is failed, the enemy may not attack.
RobTheWise said:
One large assumptions:
"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls,
but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a
natural dice score of 1 always misses."
To you means you hit on a 6+ if you don't know what you roll to hit is. Bit of a jump don't you think? This is in the same line as the previous arguments.
But you swayed me with one argument:
"Just as all eligible units (i.e. those in base contact
with the enemy) must fight in close combat,
similarly all models in base contact with an
enemy must fight. Models cannot elect not to
strike, nor can they normally be prevented from
doing so"
If Warhammer is indeed a permissive rule set, then by this paragraph, you actually need permission NOT to attack."
Be nice if it was without the smarminess though, I have been nothing but polite.
All I wanted was an actual argument based on the permissive ruleset not "its a 6+ for all attacks so you can attack!" Which is a complete non sequitur.
Hey Max,
I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to sound like smarmy I c**t. :slapface:
Was just reading the rules and re-iterated a few points to make sure my argument was strong.
Also took a stern stance in preparation for counter argument, but perhaps ended up sounding like a bit of a dickhead instead?
Hopefully no hard feelings and we can continue to have many happy debates going forward.
Rob.
I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to sound like smarmy I c**t. :slapface:
Was just reading the rules and re-iterated a few points to make sure my argument was strong.
Also took a stern stance in preparation for counter argument, but perhaps ended up sounding like a bit of a dickhead instead?
Hopefully no hard feelings and we can continue to have many happy debates going forward.
Rob.
I also agree that ws0 hits on 6+. The argument that ws0 can't attack doesn't make sense because ws isn't used to determine attacks, there is a separate profile characteristic for that. Ws determines the score required to hit, and the brb clearly says all attacks will hit on 6s.
Questioner
Wight King
I'd probably have to agree with the 6+. Nothing is stopping the models from fighting, they just cant use their weapons.
I think that redox has got it down to a tee. If you want to see my opinion, look at his post 2 up
Thindol
Grave Guard
I'd think that if it reduced your Attack value to 0 or "-" then I'd say you couldn't fight. A WS of 0 to me would be the equivalent of an untrained peasant swinging at you. The 6+ represents the lucky hit from said peasant.
I hate to agree with Crass here but that's how I roll.
I hate to agree with Crass here but that's how I roll.