Dealing with a Daemon Prince
- Thread starter Vipoid
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Sorry, but I've seen that Beguile is not worth it, unless the Vampire Lord has Dread knight and forces 3+ re-rolls, which "can" miss sometimes (Daemon Princes usually take the Sword of Striking, with WoC).
Now, Daemons of Chaos is another matter: Nightshroud owns the Etherblade. Dread Knight + beguile helps you a lot as well.
However... Other Trickster's Shard + Death Shriek pretty much blows them up unless you roll poorly on the scream.
Oddly enough... Coven Throne!! Re-rollable Impact hits (Scrying Pool) just avoids all the Nurgle cheese!
Now, Daemons of Chaos is another matter: Nightshroud owns the Etherblade. Dread Knight + beguile helps you a lot as well.
However... Other Trickster's Shard + Death Shriek pretty much blows them up unless you roll poorly on the scream.
Oddly enough... Coven Throne!! Re-rollable Impact hits (Scrying Pool) just avoids all the Nurgle cheese!
Crypt Horrors are a fantastic way to deal with a DP, especially with a champ. They won't kill him, but even just 6 of them will tie him up for the entire game. He has 5 attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s, 5++ regen = 1.9 wounds. You have 1 rank, so you only get 1 crumble. Throw on an invocation every 2 turns and he's not going anywhere. Likewise any unit with a champ can hold him up for a long time as long as that invocation goes off. That means 6 dogs with a champ that charge will pin him in place through his turn so next turn you can charge another unit of 6 dogs /w a champ.
The best way and probably the most reliable way to kill a Nurgle DP is with banshee and TG screams, no two ways about it.
The best way and probably the most reliable way to kill a Nurgle DP is with banshee and TG screams, no two ways about it.
There is actually a VL build that stands up to a DP. Dreadknight, Quickblood, Red Fury, POSpeed, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Giant blade. Give him heavy armour, a shield and mount him on a barded nightmare. It's all down to luck with who drops first... If you can fit another vamp or WK in the unit with OTS then it's all in the VL's favour.
Fluffytemplar
Skeleton
Hello all,
I won't repeat the obvious since I think this thread has looked at every single option possible by now. (Hell there was even mention of master strike?). But I think there's one thing we may have left out.
Someone had mentioned earlier that because the DP will be backed up by the other 1500-2000 points or so of army, that they usually just fly around casting spells, knowing that little to nothing you have has a chance against him.
In my experience (limited as it may be in some areas, WoC is not one of them as it's one of the few armies I play against almost exclusively) this is actually what happens more often than not. WoC players run their daemon prince around the table making you soil your pants and focus too much attention on them.
Someone earlier compared them to killier stanks, well, deal with them the same way.
Ignore it...
Few are the WoC players who throw the thing headlong into combat right off the bat as this could potentially restrict it's magic abilities.
Spend the first half the game cleaning up his army, then when he realizes and jumps into combat, even a DP will have a hard time completely killing a whole unit at once, especially with some invocations. Let the DP kill his 400-500 points while you crush everything else on the table.
If it makes you feel better about it as well, throw a few screams or spirit leeches his way if you get the chance, just to give him something to think about. Remember, your opponent doesn't want to give up those 600+ (+100 for general) points anymore than we do.
If the only thing left on the table from a WoC list is a daemon prince, I'm not worried about how to kill it next time, I just take the 20-0 and move on.
I won't repeat the obvious since I think this thread has looked at every single option possible by now. (Hell there was even mention of master strike?). But I think there's one thing we may have left out.
Someone had mentioned earlier that because the DP will be backed up by the other 1500-2000 points or so of army, that they usually just fly around casting spells, knowing that little to nothing you have has a chance against him.
In my experience (limited as it may be in some areas, WoC is not one of them as it's one of the few armies I play against almost exclusively) this is actually what happens more often than not. WoC players run their daemon prince around the table making you soil your pants and focus too much attention on them.
Someone earlier compared them to killier stanks, well, deal with them the same way.
Ignore it...
Few are the WoC players who throw the thing headlong into combat right off the bat as this could potentially restrict it's magic abilities.
Spend the first half the game cleaning up his army, then when he realizes and jumps into combat, even a DP will have a hard time completely killing a whole unit at once, especially with some invocations. Let the DP kill his 400-500 points while you crush everything else on the table.
If it makes you feel better about it as well, throw a few screams or spirit leeches his way if you get the chance, just to give him something to think about. Remember, your opponent doesn't want to give up those 600+ (+100 for general) points anymore than we do.
If the only thing left on the table from a WoC list is a daemon prince, I'm not worried about how to kill it next time, I just take the 20-0 and move on.
Yep, I agree. My WoC player usually throws his Prince against his most cheesy target, which is Cavalry (which in turn is my best "Unit" and usually contains my V Lord).
If he succeeds at killing said Unit, there is little I can do to stop both the DP and the rest of his army.
However, like Fluffytemplar said, if I outdeploy him, I'll get my Cav where it hurts and "safely" away from his Prince. Dancing (literally and Van Hel's) with my Cavalry, I have a few extra turns to throw some screams / Spirit leeches at him, until he realizes that and gets into combat with anything to heal himself with Soulfeeder.
Then, the Prince is contained against Zombies, and my Cav can finally move in for the kill, either him or his Unit of Chaos Warriors on the flank!
If he succeeds at killing said Unit, there is little I can do to stop both the DP and the rest of his army.
However, like Fluffytemplar said, if I outdeploy him, I'll get my Cav where it hurts and "safely" away from his Prince. Dancing (literally and Van Hel's) with my Cavalry, I have a few extra turns to throw some screams / Spirit leeches at him, until he realizes that and gets into combat with anything to heal himself with Soulfeeder.
Then, the Prince is contained against Zombies, and my Cav can finally move in for the kill, either him or his Unit of Chaos Warriors on the flank!
A lord on a barded steed will have both a 4+ AS after str. modifiers and a 4++. The DP have 5 attacks so on average he should do 1 wound per combat phase. Nothing our lord cant heal up. Our lord on the other hand, deals around a wound per combat phase as well with sword of anti heroes. He might even have a phase were he does even better if you get vanhels off and give him potion of str. So in a chalenge between the two, there is no reason why our lord cant keep up. He might have a slighty smaller chance of dealing wounds, but he has a way easier time regaining them as well.
For instance:
A nurgle DP with flying, lvl 4, soul feeder, sclaed skin, sword of striking, flame breath, charmed shield and dragonbane gem
lets just say he charged due to flying.
VS
A Vamp lord lvl 4 with barded steed, red fury, quickblood, beguile, charmed shield, sword of anti heroes, potion of str., tali pres.
The vamp rolls for 6 attacks, 2 hits on 5+ and one is removed due to charmed shield. On average he wounds, but it is saved.
The DP on average fails his LD roll for beguile meaning he rerolls to hit. He has 5 attacks that hit on anything but a 1. With rerolls and charmed shield an average of 3 will hit and an average of 2 will wound, a 4+ and 4++ means only 1 wound is likely. Only 1 spell needs to go off now and the vamp lord is healed up. Next combat phase you use the potion and hope for a lucky roll to hit, which is what it comes down to in my mind... Luck.
For instance:
A nurgle DP with flying, lvl 4, soul feeder, sclaed skin, sword of striking, flame breath, charmed shield and dragonbane gem
lets just say he charged due to flying.
VS
A Vamp lord lvl 4 with barded steed, red fury, quickblood, beguile, charmed shield, sword of anti heroes, potion of str., tali pres.
The vamp rolls for 6 attacks, 2 hits on 5+ and one is removed due to charmed shield. On average he wounds, but it is saved.
The DP on average fails his LD roll for beguile meaning he rerolls to hit. He has 5 attacks that hit on anything but a 1. With rerolls and charmed shield an average of 3 will hit and an average of 2 will wound, a 4+ and 4++ means only 1 wound is likely. Only 1 spell needs to go off now and the vamp lord is healed up. Next combat phase you use the potion and hope for a lucky roll to hit, which is what it comes down to in my mind... Luck.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Thats true... He only misses on a 1 if he has taken sword of striking though, which he most likely has. Still, out of those potential 10 rolls to hit there are bound to be a few rolls of 1.
The thing about the DP is, that although he is pretty tough to kill, he still only have 5 attacks that have to hit, wound and get through a 4+ AS and 4+ WS if your lord is mounted.
The thing about the DP is, that although he is pretty tough to kill, he still only have 5 attacks that have to hit, wound and get through a 4+ AS and 4+ WS if your lord is mounted.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Strength 6. So just the 4++ though
But yeah beguile helps.
And if all u have is a 4 + as u mean to be on foot where he gets an autohitting t.stomp on u
And then there is the brearh weapon and if he is feeling silly, nurgles rot
And if you are mounted, sure you will at least get your armour.
But yeah beguile helps.
And if all u have is a 4 + as u mean to be on foot where he gets an autohitting t.stomp on u
And then there is the brearh weapon and if he is feeling silly, nurgles rot
And if you are mounted, sure you will at least get your armour.
Count Matthewzilla said:
4+ was after str. modifiers... I didnt include that because we already went over that earlier, we took a maxed out DP vs a maxed out lord meaning he is ofc mounted, so no, no stomp. Breath weapon is an average of 7 hits, wounds on 5+ so lets just be generous and say he gets 3 wounds. The lord gets a 3+ save followed by a 4+ WS meaning the DP would have to be extremely lucky to even get a wound in with that one. And nurgles rot, are you expecting me to take that serious?.
This is very simple... Using average rolls, its an even matchup that might even end in the vamps favour due to easier healing. Ofcourse nothing is granted when dice are involved and if one side is lucky it can just as well turn out an easy victory to one side.
Edit... What I am trying to say is that we should be the last ones to get riled up pver a DP. Have you guys tried to face a blender lord yourselves? I did last weekend and he took out 12 black knights after crumble.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Valle said:
First off dont be snide about the rot. It was supposed to be funny, hence why why i said silly. But i do see it alot and wont scoff at more chances to wound even if they are stupidly low.
Your build above is a 2+, 4++
So str 6 means u have a 5+ 4++
Reallt for killing the fop we should get the ots on that lord.
Count Matthewzilla said:
Hmm, thats true... He should have either enchanted shield or even better, shield and dragonhelm to get 4+. Well regarding rot, he needs a 6 to wound and then you need to roll anything but 1 followed by failing your 4++, so the chances of rot doing anything are so slim that its really hard to take into consideration. It would be like our zombie bunker charging in and doing a couple of wounds on that DP... It can happen, but its not very likely.
Good point about the OTS. It would be much better in the long run than the potion of str I first thought of. So mounted with heavy, shield, sword of anti heroes dragonhelm, tali pres, OTS, red fury and beguile... You could add stuff like dreadknight and aura of dark majesty as well, but you wouldnt make him like that normally, so lets just say the usual quickstrike even though it dosnt do much against the DP.
I would say that above build would give the DP a vey even fight. I cerntainly wouldnt bet my savings on the winner.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Yeah that has a much better likelyhood. Like you said dont bet on it.
The problem i see is catching it. I know the idea of this thread was: what other than a double TG can take it out, but it does work.
Of course i did a goofy triple forbidden lore light vamp coven last week and that worked. Was laughing my but off.
But really other than really tailoring. Why not use the big bats?
The problem i see is catching it. I know the idea of this thread was: what other than a double TG can take it out, but it does work.
Of course i did a goofy triple forbidden lore light vamp coven last week and that worked. Was laughing my but off.
But really other than really tailoring. Why not use the big bats?
I always do... Its our bets tool hands down and I love the model!!! I mean a huge flying undead bat, what not to like!. My WoC opponent dont come near me with his DP when the Tbat is around, thats for sure.
Vamps with lore of light hehe... Somehow I have a hard time imagining my lord casting banishment.
Vamps with lore of light hehe... Somehow I have a hard time imagining my lord casting banishment.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Well it was three baby vamps since lord had to take vamp of course. I took no ME instead and laughed hard when i gave him his walking papers. My opponent was not pleased.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
I usually in mosy games take one of each.
But on point. I just dont see s truely better way to deal with the dp. Id rathet my lord were killing some warriors than getting stuck with the prince.
But on point. I just dont see s truely better way to deal with the dp. Id rathet my lord were killing some warriors than getting stuck with the prince.
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
Fate of Bjuna. mthis is has the best chance and has the perfect side effect if you dont kill him the first time.