Dealing with a Daemon Prince

[Aren]

Gone a bit off topic we have we are meant to be inventing ways of killing a DP, not arguing whether mathhammer is the way forward or did gatti fluke his rolls or if tourneys are warhammer or not. Now, we are NOT shooting with cannons so hills are really not relevant. Mathammer is a good indicatio but should never be used on its own (though Gatti did back it up with two examples so we have no reason to suspect his was a fluke) and honestly?! That's just lame, do you have any reason Logan to believe that Gatti was overly lucky with his rolls? No. He even proves it with math. How about we just try out his build and post the results. If majority is a win against DP then he gets credit for making a DP slaying build, if not then at least he tried. Fair? At least its better than arguing about it. Mind you, when testing do a proper game, not just roll the dice by yourself, whenever I do that the dice are always against me, whether I want to win the combat or not! I would say magic DP to a low initiative then pit him. Magic is the best shot after TGs. And calm down guys, its not helping.

 

[rothgar13]

The main issue I have with Miasma + Pit is that we don't have the power dice or the casters to do it - we have a factory-default Magic phase, and we don't have the L4 Shadows casters to easily cast Pit on 4 dice. I like Miasma spam + P-Sun, though.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

If he is a low level prince there is always the Frog scroll:tongue:

 

[Aedin]

If he is a low level prince there is always the Frog scroll:tongue:

Just like I pointed out earlier. Manny giggles when that works and his leadership becomes 1 when my VL with OTS is in base contact with him. Be prepared to re-roll those ward saves vs my TG screams as well. :lol:

 

[Commisarlestat]

I wish I had the money to get one of those toad models from forgeworld for just such an occaision. I'm not going to get to test out my chaos with the new book till the end of march which is annoying me. I'll have lots of things to test out though!

I'm sure I'll face one or more of these when I go to throne of skulls in march so I'll be able to give some uncomped tournie feedback then.

I know it's a while but it'll hopefully add some things to this discussion.

A

 

[Ether Dude]

I have played 7 games against warriors in the last 5 days. All 7 featured level 4 Nurgle demon princes with wings. In 2 games, the DPs charged into fully ranked units (zombies and ghouls) netting fewer than 400 points in the entire game.

In the other 5 games, I was able to kill the DP. Once with pure death magic, twice with hexwraiths and twice with the vampire build suggested by Gatti in conjunction with magic and HW.

Despite a 1/5 and -1 to hit, the DPs are far from invulnerable, and once you start dealing a few wounds they are much less scary.

Finally, I feel as though units would be just fine dealing with these models. Provided you have high strength, volume of attacks ought to wear the DP out. I'm sure the nay sayers will be quick to tell me I'm full of ***t, but I've found a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with the new toy.

Cheers,
Ether

 

[rothgar13]

I'm surprised the Hexwraiths worked, given that the build I sponsor has the Dragonbane Gem. Serves that Chaos player right for not identifying an obvious weak point. Everything else sounds about right though.

 

[Yorga]

I'm surprised the Hexwraiths worked, given that the build I sponsor has the Dragonbane Gem. Serves that Chaos player right for not identifying an obvious weak point. Everything else sounds about right though.

Everything else sounds about right? :| It would be cold day in hell before I charged -my- DP into a fully ranked unit of Zombies.:slapface: What's the point. Sounds like Ether's buddy is not much of a general. Also wondering how a flying DP let the Hexwraiths get close enough to do their run through thing?

And where/what was the rest of the Chaos army? I played against Tomb Kings and did not charge his big block of Skeletons until I hit them with combined Chariot charges as well as my exalted on the disc. They crumbled on the charge.

 

[Ether Dude]

Sounds like Ether's buddy is not much of a general.

Told you it wouldn't be long. :lol:

As for the rest of your querries, the DP went into the zeds after he'd taken 3w from HW/death magic. With the ubiquitous soul stealer/firey breath going through 40 zombies shouldn't take a long time. As in, should be done in a turn or three, especially with Nurgle magic along for the ride.

Hexwraiths only need 1 pass and they are good. The DP had to chose to stop either bubble van hel's or ld snipes. He chose ld snipes that turn and 10 s5 hits later he's in trouble.

Rothgar, the DP had potion of foolhardiness/luckstone. I doubt that he'll be taking that again, and I think you're right that the DP will be packing DBG for the most part. I'm not sure what the meta is going to favor in the end, but charmed shield, +1 to hit and 5 points of stuff is probably going to be common.

**EDIT** I agree with what both of you are saying. Mistakes were made in game and in list design. Some of that has to do with the choices you force upon opponents though, and that's what I find interesting about this game. For me, it's not about finding the ultimate points denial ETC list that can never lose. It's about finding a set of tools with which you can force your opponent into hard decisions. It's like chess, part of the goal is to leave your opponent in a position in which there are no good moves. The DP forces me to risk hexwraiths to kill a 600 point model. Similarly, the hexwraiths force the demon prince into playing it safe and casting all game long, instead of smashing face.

 

[The Sun King]

That is called Zugzwang in chess terms Ether

 

[rothgar13]

Yeah, I figured that it went into the Zeds because it was wounded - between Soul Feeder, the Breath, and the T-stomps, it's a quick and dirty way to get back up to fighting shape. I'm a big proponent of the Sword of Striking + Charmed Shield + Dragonbane Gem combo, and these experiences show you why. It's not just Hexwraiths - as Johnny mentioned earlier in the thread, a boosted Searing Doom will also put him down if you don't take that item, and that's even before the happy coincidences, like Screaming Skull Catapults and some Dwarven artillery being flaming. That 2+ Ward vs. flaming is a must, especially for the price tag.

 

[Yorga]

Mine is kitted with dragonbane, charmed shield and Warrior's Bane. Never hurts to reduce those vampire and Tyrant's attacks. The kind of opponent likely to stick around more than one round of combat. Though a Phoenix Guard champ went 3 rounds with mine. :| There is a statue of him in the Phoenix King's palace now.

 

[Larro]

You also have to catch it, the main problem being as soon as you leave the generals bubble its going to be faster than you,even without wings. Then you have the added problem if its a death mage trying to snipe them before they even get within 8"

Sort of. Don't forget, TG's can scream into combats, and don't need LOS. There's no reason you're going to be flying off your TGs to chase this guy and be out of march range - or you shouldn't be. No, you should be forming a semi-refused flank center, with your TGs flanking your Bunker, right behind the main line, for the first turn or two. I never got the point of rushing out head-long to scream as many times as possible, to "maximize" your investment, when youre mitigating your advantage by tipping your hand and segmenting your force.

Assuming you're running an Infantry-based build, it's Core blocks flanked by Crypt Horror(s) / Vargs, chaff up front, Zombie bunker behind the center, TG or 2 right next to the Zombies. Against WoC and other armies that want to simply run at you, this is the ideal deployment. Anchor the flank with 40+ Zombies and some chaff, and never, ever split up. They already outfight you, so why leave your healing and support bubble?

Terrorgheists + Death Magic are the way to drop this bad boy. Assuming you're playing Comp, then the DP will not be able to stack all of his survival gear, and if there's NO COMP, then you don't have to feel bad for taking 2 TGs and maybe a few Death Snipes!

Those are really the best 2 options we have.

- Larry

 

[Vipoid]

Sort of. Don't forget, TG's can scream into combats, and don't need LOS. There's no reason you're going to be flying off your TGs to chase this guy and be out of march range - or you shouldn't be.

Here's the problem - you can't assume that your terrorghiests will still be around in a few turns.

With Ld4, they're incredibly vulnerable to death-snipes themselves and, if you try to hold them back, you could easily find that they're dead before they get to do anything.

 

[Larro]

Well, of course - your opponent has an army too, and has the right to try to foil your plans.

You asked for the best options. We don't have many good ones to be honest, but Rothgar made that point 9 pages ago.

The "good" options are the above - IF playing uncomped, try to grind him down with Screams and Death snipes.

IF playing Comped, odds are good he cannot have both MoN + Regain Wounds, nor can he likely get a 1+ Save. If that's the case, beat him up as you would see fit, or tie him down. Or, still use a TG and Death Magic, since they work as well in Comped and Uncomped environments.

- Larry

 

[aussie]

Lol ghoul king with fencer blades and savage beast...... A little over the top putting safe on it but if you know all your fighting is daemon princes..... Verse nurgle 8 ws 10 4's to hit str 8 attacks red fury on top....... I think this will kill it but does he kill ? With asf as well hummmm?

 

[Commisarlestat]

That'd be about 2.8 wounds without any buffed ward. Stick in ASF and you might bump it up a wound. Has a good chance of kicking face but will you survive the return hits including thunderstomp?
If you can then I reckon two challenge rounds and you'd have him.

A

 

[rothgar13]

VC has better options than most other armies, to be honest with you. Only the guys with cannons and bolt throwers are in better overall shape to handle that guy.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Rambling Rants #7 talks about that topic in depth Rotyh

 

[Yorga]

VC has better options than most other armies, to be honest with you. Only the guys with cannons and bolt throwers are in better overall shape to handle that guy.

You forgot Stone Throwers Rothgar. My Nurgle DP went down to a stone thrower rock to the head on Monday. :slapface: Brets, Orcs, and Dwarves can be added to the armies who can deal with a DP. With Ogres, and Empire cannons, as well as maybe the Skaven WLC, the DP is far from safe on the battlefield. I don't know any elf players that spend the 100 points on their bolt throwers anymore. Not in an 'all comers' list.

 

[Vipoid]

Rambling Rants #7 talks about that topic in depth Rotyh

Rambling Rants #7? o.o

 

[Seneschal]

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Dear-Johnny?page=65

Halfway down the page.

 

[rothgar13]

HE players in my meta do. Rather tough to deal with those Monstrous Cavalry units otherwise, because not even White Lions fare all that well when taking Mournfangs or Demigryph Knights to the face after getting softened up by shooting, and their Core is utterly helpless against them.

I will point out some inaccuracies in your Rambling Rant, Johnny. Poison MIGHT work against Chimeras (still has to get through the tandem 4+ saves), but it won't do diddly to a Daemon Prince and his 1+ armor save. Anything Flaming (Skulltaker, Screaming Skull Catapults) has to contend with the Dragonbane Gem, and Beastmen do have Miasma spam + Purple Sun as an emergency option. And the math suggests that he can take Hordes of White Lions head on and grind them down. I do agree that monster mash with no BSB is a bad idea, and that this is not the second coming of 7e Daemons, either.

 

[Yorga]

I do agree that monster mash with no BSB is a bad idea, and that this is not the second coming of 7e Daemons, either.

I quickly spotted during list creation the weakness regarding leadership tests for the new Chaos Warriors army. It pained me but I had to forsake my beloved dispel scroll for a BSB. It really really paid off.

 

[Abhorash.]

Anyone consider two TG, and a Flying Skabscrath SGK? I mean its super cheese but just get the jump on him that one turn and force him to survive 3 screams. Plus he wouldn't even consider Skabscrath existing in your army.