Dealing with a Daemon Prince

[The Sun King]

Well other stuff in our army can scream as well guys... Like Skabscrath, Banshees and ME's... and ME's rock against a DP because of their destructive aura and explosions

 

[Vipoid]

@Vipoid

Isnt WoC core balanced by their models cost ? They have typically smaller armies...it just seems that they more than make up for it in their obscene damage output.

You're free to try ghouls vs equal points of chaos warriors and see who comes out on top.

Well other stuff in our army can scream as well guys... Like Skabscrath, Banshees and ME's... and ME's rock against a DP because of their destructive aura and explosions

Unfortunately, I believe banshee and ME screams average 0 wounds on the DP. :tongue:

 

[rothgar13]

And the ME aura allows armor saves, so it won't even faze that Prince.

 

[Xivigg]

So it look like our only answers for that DP is either terrorgheist or unreliable magic ? not not fun at all

 

[Vipoid]

You also have to catch it, the main problem being as soon as you leave the generals bubble its going to be faster than you,even without wings. Then you have the added problem if its a death mage trying to snipe them before they even get within 8"

Indeed.

It also means that you'll probably only get one shot with the terrorghiests (otherwise, the WoC player will start aiming spells at them, and so weakening them). Also, the fact that the DP is a Lord means he might be set up after one or both of your terrorghiests.

You could easily be put into a position where you have to send the terrorghiests on a suicide mission to try and kill the DP (i.e. setting them up for obvious charges even if they kill him). In this case, one bad roll and the DP could easily survive, leaving you struggling for the remainder of the battle.

Its simply not going to be that easy to get of the buggers within 8" and keep them both out of the charge arc. I think death spam will be the best bet, at least you don't have to get within charge range to start trying to kill it.

Well, death sniping has it's own disadvantages. Depending on the points, you could well have a SGK as your general. So, even if you undertake some rules-diddling with regard to the 'unmodified Ld' faq, you'll still be no better than him in terms of Ld. And, he still gets a ward save against any wounds you manage to cause. In addition, even if you include a few Necromancers to attempt this, there's no guarantee that you'll get enough power dice to give you a reasonable chance - especially since you'll probably be casting with Lv1s or Lv2s, vs a Lv4 DP dispelling. You could simply roll badly on the Winds of Magic, and get stuck with 2-3 dice.

Finally, since they're direct damage spells, they're useless the moment the DP reaches combat. So, if you haven't killed him by then (and, let's face it, the odds aren't exactly in your favour) then he can just start mincing your squad and regaining all the wounds you inflicted.

Shadow is also another option, simply nerf it and challenge it, lowering the S will help a lot.

Trouble is, it still leaves you relying on magic - you need to keep successfully casting that spell on him every turn, he only needs it to fail, and is free to use his magic against other units, or even back on your lord to even the playing field.

 

[Aedin]

Maybe a lucky hex scroll. Scream at him when he's a toad with a LD of 1 :lol:

I know, I know, it's not 100% reliable but defiantly would cause some giggling at the table.



"You're free to try ghouls vs equal points of chaos warriors and see who comes out on top."
I know exactly what your saying here Vipoid.

I have always thought that as you stack additional toughness combined with additional armor and then multiple attacks that the premium for each point above the basic human should increase. In the gaming community I believe its called diminishing returns.

However, I have also looked at it from the perspective that the points are balance per army roster and not equal overall.
For example, lets say two army books have the basic stat line human. Army A has the spells to replenish models and to add a regeneration save to those models while army B has no way of doing anything to their base human stat troop. Therefore, the human model in army A should by slightly more expensive than in army B. Basically balancing that troop type out for its particular army abilities as well as its stats.

 

[logan054]

Indeed.

It also means that you'll probably only get one shot with the terrorghiests (otherwise, the WoC player will start aiming spells at them, and so weakening them). Also, the fact that the DP is a Lord means he might be set up after one or both of your terrorghiests.

You could easily be put into a position where you have to send the terrorghiests on a suicide mission to try and kill the DP (i.e. setting them up for obvious charges even if they kill him). In this case, one bad roll and the DP could easily survive, leaving you struggling for the remainder of the battle.

It also relies on your going first and the daemon prince being deployed within 28" of both of them, you then also have other factors to consider such as mark. I know a lot of people have been raving about MoN but I would be more inclined to take a Tzeentch one (if I wasn't making a fluffy army). rerollings one's for wardsaves and channels is a very good ability.

I feel the main problem with this tactic is you are investing 440pts to kill a single model, even if they manage it we will be down 440pts and we will be without one of our best counters to knights and skullcrushers.

Well, death sniping has it's own disadvantages. Depending on the points, you could well have a SGK as your general. So, even if you undertake some rules-diddling with regard to the 'unmodified Ld' faq, you'll still be no better than him in terms of Ld. And, he still gets a ward save against any wounds you manage to cause. In addition, even if you include a few Necromancers to attempt this, there's no guarantee that you'll get enough power dice to give you a reasonable chance - especially since you'll probably be casting with Lv1s or Lv2s, vs a Lv4 DP dispelling. You could simply roll badly on the Winds of Magic, and get stuck with 2-3 dice.

Finally, since they're direct damage spells, they're useless the moment the DP reaches combat. So, if you haven't killed him by then (and, let's face it, the odds aren't exactly in your favour) then he can just start mincing your squad and regaining all the wounds you inflicted.

Of course magic has its own problems, like any tactic in the game, I would dare say it is more reliable than a pair of terrors. I mention death as I know many people use the lore amyway.

But lets face it, if that daemon prince reaches combat with a chimera your going to be pretty screwed when they double breath your generals units.

Trouble is, it still leaves you relying on magic - you need to keep successfully casting that spell on him every turn, he only needs it to fail, and is free to use his magic against other units, or even back on your lord to even the playing field.

Any tactic will suffer from the problems of rolling dice, the brightside with shadow is at least you don't have to worry about him having MR3.

 

[Vipoid]

It also relies on your going first and the daemon prince being deployed within 28" of both of them, you then also have other factors to consider such as mark. I know a lot of people have been raving about MoN but I would be more inclined to take a Tzeentch one (if I wasn't making a fluffy army). rerollings one's for wardsaves and channels is a very good ability.

Thing is, if a DP has mark of Tzeench, I'd be less concerned about sending a SGK against it. It's the hitting on 5s with MoN that concerns me.

However, I agree with your other statements - whilst 2 Terrorghiests probably have the best chance (mathematically) of taking down a DP, actually getting them both to him is another matter.

I feel the main problem with this tactic is you are investing 440pts to kill a single model, even if they manage it we will be down 440pts and we will be without one of our best counters to knights and skullcrushers.

450pts...

And, yes, it's a hell of an investment for what will likely end up as a suicide mission.

Of course magic has its own problems, like any tactic in the game, I would dare say it is more reliable than a pair of terrors. I mention death as I know many people use the lore amyway.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. I've always found magic to be horrendously unreliable.

But lets face it, if that daemon prince reaches combat with a chimera your going to be pretty screwed when they double breath your generals units.

Yes, that certainly won't be a pleasant round of combat...

Any tactic will suffer from the problems of rolling dice, the brightside with shadow is at least you don't have to worry about him having MR3.

That's true, but I really don't see him having MR3 anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that item requires the Mark of Khorne. It seems like that mark doesn't really offer much benefit to a DP - especially compared to Nurgle or Tzeench.

Maybe a lucky hex scroll. Scream at him when he's a toad with a LD of 1 :lol:

I know, I know, it's not 100% reliable but defiantly would cause some giggling at the table.

I'm fearful of the day someone does that to my Ghoul King..

However, I have also looked at it from the perspective that the points are balance per army roster and not equal overall.
For example, lets say two army books have the basic stat line human. Army A has the spells to replenish models and to add a regeneration save to those models while army B has no way of doing anything to their base human stat troop. Therefore, the human model in army A should by slightly more expensive than in army B. Basically balancing that troop type out for its particular army abilities as well as its stats.

I'm not sure I agree here.

Can army A somehow cast its spells more efficiently than army B? Otherwise, it seems army B could just as easily use its own magic to undermine those buffs (e.g. countering the resurrection by killing models outright, countering regeneration with flaming attacks, lowering their toughness etc.).

My point is, it seems like army A's magic would have to be either much stronger or much more reliable than Army B's, and not made up for in other areas, before you start inflating their costs. This is especially true when you consider that they might not always have their magic - what if they want to try a magic light army? Now they're suffering for no benefit whatsoever.

You see, this is basically the logic that seems to have been used in the Tyranid codex, and crippled it as a result. It seemed to be assumed that, because some buffs were available on certain units, they'd always be available and active on every unit. Therefore the cost of virtually every unit was inflated, even though most of them wouldn't have those buffs.

 

[Seneschal]

If it hasn't been said already, I'd try this: Flying Horror, Fencer's Blades, Strength Potion, RF on an SGK.

 

[rothgar13]

And have him be T-stomped into the afterlife?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

All guts all glory

 

[rothgar13]

Meh, if you ask me, fight a 1+ save with a 1+ save, and get on a Horse so that he can't slap you around for D6 autohits. The only issue is that a VL's offense will be decidedly weaker than the SGK's... I don't like either scenario much, but at least the VL is likely to make it out of Round 1, whereas that SGK is toast, as described below:

Strigoi Ghoul King (Dragonbane Gem, Fencer's Blades, Flying Horror, Potion of Strength, Red Fury)

vs.

Daemon Prince (Chaos Armor, Chaos Familiar, Charmed Shield, Daemonic Flight, Dragonbane Gem, Flaming Breath, L4 Wizard, Mark of Nurgle, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Sword of Striking)

Strigoi Ghoul King strikes tied for first. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+ with a re-roll, wounding on 2+, allowing 6+ armor, 5+ Ward.

Math: (6)*(3/4)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 2.08 Wounds

Red Fury Math: (2.08)*(3/4)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 0.72 Wounds

2.08 + 0.72 = 2.80 ~ 3 Wounds (Daemon Prince has 1 Wound left)

Daemon Prince strikes tied for first. 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 5+ Regen saves.

Math: (5)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.48 Wounds

Thunderstomps strike second. D6 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing 5+ Regen saves.

Math: (7/2)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.56 Wounds

1.48 + 1.56 = 3.04 Wounds (Strigoi Ghoul King dies)

Soul Hunger: (3.04)*(1/6) = 0.51 ~ 1 Wound regained (Daemon Prince has 2 Wounds left)

If you swap the Dragonbane Gem for a Talisman of Preservation, you can at least force him to use his Breath Weapon to finish you off...

 

[Aren]

Special characters anyone? Konrad-maybe not Vlad-good lock with that Mannfred-surely he could do something?
Now I know what my opponent feels like when I slam down a Ctan shard. Usually shooting works but we have none. Is there NO ws lowering spell? At all? And also here our friend is that vampire power we always forget because usually it suck, the ws9 one that makes you challenge. On top of that, why hasn't someone said Blood Knights? A vampire lord power build in a deathstar of them backed with spells....surely that can take it down?

 

[rothgar13]

VC special characters would get destroyed by it - not one of them is built to fight worth a damn compared to a custom-made Vampire Lord or Ghoul King. Manny could try to snipe it, but that's about all. You can try and lower its WS with Miasma, but that requires a Hero-level Vamp with Shadows in most games and can thus be dispelled fairly easily. Dread Knight would help a little defensively, but the issue the Vampire Lord mostly has is that he can't really hurt it because he hits it on a 5+ with no re-rolls.

It would murder Blood Knights before they swing, that's the main issue. He hits and wounds them on a 2+, and they only get a 5+ save. And the Knights are never going to catch him to begin with - he flies, they're Frenzied, and WoC has the chaff to take that unit out of the game, if not outright slay it by slamming a bunch of Chariots into it. Moreover, they come from the same points allowance as the actual solution you should be implementing, which is double Terrorgheist.

 

[Aren]

Ok......Dragon. Come on, dragon and a beefed up lord has to work! Otherwise what's the point? Did Matt Ward dabble in this book by any chance?

 

[rothgar13]

The Dragon is as much a liability as it is an asset against beefy Lords like that - it gives him an easy target to swing at to generate CR against you and let crumble do the rest, and you're likely at a disadvantage in the casting department just to afford it, so what that Daemon Prince (who is also a L4 caster) will do is try to debuff or snipe you off the board. It doesn't work against things like the Ramhorn Doombull and Greater Daemons, why would the Daemon Prince be any different?

Fighting it head-on is an exercise in futility if you ask me - just pick at it with Death spells and Terrorgheists.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Yupp take a vampire lord and 3-5 lvl 1 babbies. Load up the death cannon

 

[rothgar13]

I have to say, with all the powerful character builds and monsters running about in both my meta as well as the game at large, if you don't have Lore of Death or access to artillery, things can get pretty hairy.

 

[logan054]

Thing is, if a DP has mark of Tzeench, I'd be less concerned about sending a SGK against it. It's the hitting on 5s with MoN that concerns me.

However, I agree with your other statements - whilst 2 Terrorghiests probably have the best chance (mathematically) of taking down a DP, actually getting them both to him is another matter.

The point I was making is that MoN isn't the only mark, like with units MoN is great for combat while the MoT adds greater protection over multiple phases of the game. Many may also find the lore of metal very useful, +1 to hit, extra armour, they all sound like exvellent buffs for the army.

Isn't the norm for vamps a black knight bus anyways?

450pts...

And, yes, it's a hell of an investment for what will likely end up as a suicide mission.

I haven't used one for ages, I was close enough without looking it up :tongue:

I don't know of thats really the best way to use them, I would be more concerned by those skullcrushers who are more likely to destroy units with the amount of attacks they bump out. Skullcrushers hitting on a 2+ with 3S5 attacks, then the mounts 3S5/6 attacks and then a stomp, ouch.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. I've always found magic to be horrendously unreliable.

I have found that generally the game is won in the magic phase, so while it isn't always reliable it can no doubt turn a game.

Yes, that certainly won't be a pleasant round of combat...

Just think of the crumble after the S6 stomps as well...

That's true, but I really don't see him having MR3 anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that item requires the Mark of Khorne. It seems like that mark doesn't really offer much benefit to a DP - especially compared to Nurgle or Tzeench.

You are correct, not everyone is going to take nurgle or Tzeentch, I can easily see people taking a couple of lvl1-2s, one with the skull, another with a scroll.

MoK is ok, I can't say I will be complaining about a S7 daemon price, besides Khorne has the best model, you can bet several people will be buying a daemon prince just for the FW goodness

 

[Vipoid]

The point I was making is that MoN isn't the only mark, like with units MoN is great for combat while the MoT adds greater protection over multiple phases of the game. Many may also find the lore of metal very useful, +1 to hit, extra armour, they all sound like exvellent buffs for the army.

That's true. My point was that MoN is the one I'd really fear as a VC player.

Isn't the norm for vamps a black knight bus anyways?

Not for my vamps it isn't.

I have found that generally the game is won in the magic phase, so while it isn't always reliable it can no doubt turn a game.

That's certainly true - it's just that I really hate relying on it (perhaps I chose the wrong army in that regard :tongue: ).

Just think of the crumble after the S6 stomps as well...

I'd rather not think about that...

Yupp take a vampire lord and 3-5 lvl 1 babbies. Load up the death cannon

Would you have enough power dice to utilise them?

I mean, unless you're within 12" of the DP, those necromancers are going to need 3 dice each, in order to cast the snipe spell. So, for those 5, you'd be looking at a requirement of 15 power dice per magic phase. o_o

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Really depends on the size of the magic phase. Low dice I will split into two groups high dice each baby gets 2 PD and hopes and prays

 

[logan054]

That's true. My point was that MoN is the one I'd really fear as a VC player.

With my VC list I would rather face nurgle, other lists I am sure would rather not face a Tzeentch wizard with metal or even glean magic.

Not for my vamps it isn't.

lol, well my Khorne list doesn't have a nurgle daemon prince :tongue:

That's certainly true - it's just that I really hate relying on it (perhaps I chose the wrong army in that regard :tongue.

Don't we all, sadly is the nature of 8th ed, I played a game without any magic today, it was a struggle

 

[Aren]

I suppose we have to treat it like any other op thing in the enemy arsenal. If you roll enough dice something will eventually kill it.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

If we are just hoping and praying to kill him.. purple sun or pit of shades or even final transmutation have a 1/6 chance to take him out.. bypass that weapon skill, toughness, armour, and ward.. With multiple miasmas it could make it even easier .. Sure it's not reliable but what is?

 

[Seneschal]

Hellsteed vamp over a nightmare. The save is slightly worse but the mobility is far superior. RF, QB, ToP with sword of choice and an magic armor of some sort.