Dealing with Banner of the World Dragon Deathstar
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High Elves tend to have characters in their cav stars. Heck, there is a particular gentleman who has done quite well using a Prince with Giant Blade in a Silver Helm unit when people thought he was bonkers. His thread on the High Elf site is one of the most looked at topics in the forum's history.
and the quote button still doesn't like me...
and the quote button still doesn't like me...
I might be wrong here as I don't have the BRB with me, but if you equip your chars with magic weapons and lances when mounted or gw and magic weapons when on foot, can't you choose which special weapon to use each turn of combat?
If you can that ads 30 odd points to your list and takes away 3/4 of the banners advantage.
If you can that ads 30 odd points to your list and takes away 3/4 of the banners advantage.
Dracan said:
Page 500 BRB
"I'M USING THIS ONE: A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons (his magic weapon is his pride and joy, and he's sure as sun rise going to use it). If a character has more than one magic weapon, he must choose which one to use at the start of the combat (unless a rule specifies that both can be used at the same time)—the chosen weapon must be used for the duration of the combat."
Nope, shinies are shinies, and even WHFB characters know that magic items are the best. We ain't about to use logic up in here.
Also ... to come back to the BotWD ...
There's several options for combinations in the new armybook that can turn out a lot more devastating for your opponent than that single banner.
Sure, it's awesome against DoC, or an army that focuses heavily on magic missile spam, but it's not OP I think.
There's several options for combinations in the new armybook that can turn out a lot more devastating for your opponent than that single banner.
Sure, it's awesome against DoC, or an army that focuses heavily on magic missile spam, but it's not OP I think.
Tawg said:
From the BRB.
ASF and ASL aren't stackable - you either have them, or you don't. If you have both, then they cancel and you strike at initiative. Having additional ASFs makes no difference, because you still have both ASF and ASL, so you still strike at initiative.
Mr. West said:
It really is OP. Not necessarily broken, but definitely OP. Look at any of the items with similar effects (Magic Resistance for example), this one costs barely any more, and yet has a much better effect.
RobTheWise
Grave Guard
Two posts from Ulthuan that sum up the DoC situation perfectly IMO . . .
Wait, you thought the natural counter to your argument would be "flank the White Lions?" Seriously? That's what you thought we, as High Elf players, would suggest?
This is good, love it. No wonder Daemon players are worried, if that's the best approach they can come up with to tackling the army you described. If you can't see the obvious weakness in fielding one huge unit of White Lions, minimum Core and nothing else, then I'm not even going to try and argue that World Dragon isn't that bad. If you can't find a way to beat a list like that, then yes you're in serious trouble.
Elf players have been dealing with unkillable units for years, scraping out wins against Grave Guard Deathstars and Leadership Bomb/Siren Song Spam Daemons dating back to early 7th edition. If you can't find a solution to avoiding one unit, then you should head over to the battle report section and see how it's done.
@Rob
That to me is just HE players trying to justify the existance of a obviously OP item.
Saying GG are or has been unkillable is rubbish, at best we had regen and flaming attacks is available to anyone.
And having magical attacks doesn't make deamons OP imo. It's an advantage to be able to kill stuff thats normally hard to hurt for sure bu that doesn't make them any harder to kill themselves as in the case of this banner.
That to me is just HE players trying to justify the existance of a obviously OP item.
Saying GG are or has been unkillable is rubbish, at best we had regen and flaming attacks is available to anyone.
And having magical attacks doesn't make deamons OP imo. It's an advantage to be able to kill stuff thats normally hard to hurt for sure bu that doesn't make them any harder to kill themselves as in the case of this banner.
IMO this thread is proof that most players abilities start with army builder and end with their characters.
Seriously, unless the HE player is putting the world dragon in an 1800 point core unit block, you cannot possibly lose this game. Hand the WL death star 3 units of dogs and 2 units of bats. That's 182 points it gets all game. There have to be at least 3 units in the army, so let's assume it's all core reavers or silver helms or whatever. It really does not matter. There are around 600 points in there that you are free to get.
Here's what you do:
1) Chaff up lion/Dragon prince bus.
2) Kill the reavers/archers/chariots/sea guard/bolt throwers/silver helms/phoenixes/star dragons/dragon princes/phoenix guard that don't have BotWD. Hey presto, you're up ~400+ points. Now all you have to do is dispel sensibly and the arch mage won't get those 400 points.
As a wood elf player, I just have to chuckle at all you crying doom and gloom. It's not like WE have been dealing with this trend for the last 2 editions. If you say "blah blah justification for OP item blah blah" I think I'll go ahead and cite 1+ armor, death shriek, ethereals, fliers, monstrous cav and anything that adds PD as "OP and should be comp'd out and if you don't like it you're just trying to justify taking something that's too good." Circular argument.
Point being, the item is good. It's in the HE book and 100% legal. Adapt and over come or go play monopoly so the adults can get back to their war gaming.
Seriously, unless the HE player is putting the world dragon in an 1800 point core unit block, you cannot possibly lose this game. Hand the WL death star 3 units of dogs and 2 units of bats. That's 182 points it gets all game. There have to be at least 3 units in the army, so let's assume it's all core reavers or silver helms or whatever. It really does not matter. There are around 600 points in there that you are free to get.
Here's what you do:
1) Chaff up lion/Dragon prince bus.
2) Kill the reavers/archers/chariots/sea guard/bolt throwers/silver helms/phoenixes/star dragons/dragon princes/phoenix guard that don't have BotWD. Hey presto, you're up ~400+ points. Now all you have to do is dispel sensibly and the arch mage won't get those 400 points.
As a wood elf player, I just have to chuckle at all you crying doom and gloom. It's not like WE have been dealing with this trend for the last 2 editions. If you say "blah blah justification for OP item blah blah" I think I'll go ahead and cite 1+ armor, death shriek, ethereals, fliers, monstrous cav and anything that adds PD as "OP and should be comp'd out and if you don't like it you're just trying to justify taking something that's too good." Circular argument.
Point being, the item is good. It's in the HE book and 100% legal. Adapt and over come or go play monopoly so the adults can get back to their war gaming.
What I don't get is why they wouldnt just say that all attacks against the unit are treated as mundane.
A sword is still a sword whether it's magical or not.
At least daemons would be able to do something to the unit in question
A sword is still a sword whether it's magical or not.
At least daemons would be able to do something to the unit in question
This banner is not going to cause any problems as far as I can see since, as it has already been stated, this unit is going to convenient enough to avoid the entire game or just bog it down with zombies, lots of zombies. I don't really care who you are and what units you're running, I can't think of anything except bomb spells (which are starting to disappear anyway) that can realistically kill a unit of 250-300 zombies (potentially even less zombies would suffice). Considering the magic output they have, I can also see a reason to start including more Corpse Carts with balefire. For slightly over 100 points, keeping in mind that almost all of our aug spells are bubble effect, you can also potentially be taking away his rerolls if he lets a single spell go. As well, spells like Curse of Years and Final Transmutation that hit every model in the unit can still be devastating. Remains in Play spells like Curse of Years are also useful since you'll be forcing your opponent to waste his power dice on dispelling it. Also, double base Melkoths to reduce movement works.
When one of these things gets released, it's important to not complain about it, it won't disappear becuase of that. The only thing we can do is try to find out how to counter it.
When one of these things gets released, it's important to not complain about it, it won't disappear becuase of that. The only thing we can do is try to find out how to counter it.
@Ether Dude
Way to not add anything new to the discussion.
(Mod note please be respectful of other members even if you do not agree with them)
@ybestone
So you propose we use a 900p unit of zombies to bog down a 600p unit of WL.... seems like a bad idéa.
Edit.
I wasn't disrespectful because I didn't agree with him. I was disrespectful because of his attitude.
Damn carebear moderation.
Way to not add anything new to the discussion.
(Mod note please be respectful of other members even if you do not agree with them)
@ybestone
So you propose we use a 900p unit of zombies to bog down a 600p unit of WL.... seems like a bad idéa.
Edit.
I wasn't disrespectful because I didn't agree with him. I was disrespectful because of his attitude.
Damn carebear moderation.
The people who think that chaff can keep a lionstar completely out of the game are not considering that he will be killing OUR chaff with archers and reaver knights. Maybe nice reasonable 70 point bolt throwers. I don't know about you but when I face a shooty army, my direwolves/bats are usually dead by turn 2. 
I guarantee that when I take my Lionstar to battle it WILL see battle as surely as my BK Bus does. People keep saying to feed a BK Bus chaff all game yet I always seem to plow into a nice juicey fat point target and let my vampire do what she does best.
I guarantee that when I take my Lionstar to battle it WILL see battle as surely as my BK Bus does. People keep saying to feed a BK Bus chaff all game yet I always seem to plow into a nice juicey fat point target and let my vampire do what she does best.
ybestone said:
Ok you are right it will most likely cost more. But a zombie unit of 300 is still not very good. How will you manouvre such a unit?
Even if you are horded you still have 30 ranks and a unit of 40 WL will kill it in combat reasonable fast so you will loose those 900p.
WL's will kill an average of 22 zombies each round of combat and seeing how good zombies are you will kill 2-3 back. So you will loose around 40(counting crumble) zombies each round so 80 per game turn.
And that's not counting characters.
Also if we assume it's in a tournament or such hoe often would you want a 900p unit of zombies?
kevin.hopkins7
Black Knight
Also, you typically only have a 12" deployment zone.. I think you can squeeze 15 ranks deep at most.
So 20 wide 15 deep for 300 zombros. Once you move up you can try to shrink your frontage.but this kind of unit will be easy for the HE player to prevent touching his WL's. or he can throw practically any of his other units in to speed up the crumble, you can't protect that whole units flanks and rears.. Not to mention two hordes could fully engage it from the front.
I suppose you could run them really wide instead of deep, but now your units have no room to maneuver.
Those zombies will just die and that's alot of VP's to your opponent for a unit tht can't kill anything. (Not to mention that's alot of zombies to paint n such)
So 20 wide 15 deep for 300 zombros. Once you move up you can try to shrink your frontage.but this kind of unit will be easy for the HE player to prevent touching his WL's. or he can throw practically any of his other units in to speed up the crumble, you can't protect that whole units flanks and rears.. Not to mention two hordes could fully engage it from the front.
I suppose you could run them really wide instead of deep, but now your units have no room to maneuver.
Those zombies will just die and that's alot of VP's to your opponent for a unit tht can't kill anything. (Not to mention that's alot of zombies to paint n such)
Yorga said:The people who think that chaff can keep a lionstar completely out of the game are not considering that he will be killing OUR chaff with archers and reaver knights. Maybe nice reasonable 70 point bolt throwers. I don't know about you but when I face a shooty army, my direwolves/bats are usually dead by turn 2.
I guarantee that when I take my Lionstar to battle it WILL see battle as surely as my BK Bus does. People keep saying to feed a BK Bus chaff all game yet I always seem to plow into a nice juicey fat point target and let my vampire do what she does best.
While that's true, it also means he's focusing his shooting on our chaff and leaving our punchy units alone. It forces a choice which is really a lose/lose for him. Focus on low point chaff units, leaving the larger dangerous units alone, or focus on the dangerous units, and have the chaff tie up his WL deathstar.
I mean, we're starting to get into theory-hammer here and we get a lot of what-if situations appearing, but I think a VC player who starts with a reasonable amount of chaff and through the judicious use of magic can reliably keep enough units on the board to take an infantry deathstar out of the game. I mean, there's always the possibility that your opponent is just better at the game, and will find ways to neutralise those chaff units (like positioning his units in such a way that diverting them isn't possible, or that any over-run will be beneficial to him) but that doesn't mean you don't have the tools at your disposal to get the job done.
I can't believe we're on page 12 (and counting) of this banner debate. It isn't a huge deal. You want to beat this deathstar horde toting a overhyped magic banner? Throw some Spirit Hosts at it and forget about it. Leave it alone and concentrate on the rest of the army. Problem solved.
@Blutsauger
You are correct that the thread is very much theory-hammering but the point of the thread was not to say we don't have any tools to deal with this unit but rather to find the tools we do have.
I think we have gotten some good suggestions here that may or may not work but nothing, in my opinion, that we can be sure will work.
@Tomfoolery
It's pretty likely that the assumed characters in this unit will be able to kill spirit hosts but if he lacks magic weapons in his deathstar then sure.
You are correct that the thread is very much theory-hammering but the point of the thread was not to say we don't have any tools to deal with this unit but rather to find the tools we do have.
I think we have gotten some good suggestions here that may or may not work but nothing, in my opinion, that we can be sure will work.
@Tomfoolery
It's pretty likely that the assumed characters in this unit will be able to kill spirit hosts but if he lacks magic weapons in his deathstar then sure.
I play high elves, and no one in their right mind is actually going to field this unit, it's a waste of points we are better off fielding else where. t3 deathstars so not work. so I wouldn't even worry about it.
But if you want to tailor to beat it, a bunch of red fury vamps with additional hand weapons will do the trick.
But if you want to tailor to beat it, a bunch of red fury vamps with additional hand weapons will do the trick.
Zhatan said:
I'm sure the HE opponent will in fact put a character (maybe more) in there. Point is it's only the character throwing wounds. Sure he'll beat up the Hosts but if you stack them 3 or 4 deep it'll be enough to hold the entire unit up for a good 2-3 turns, especially if you're dropping anything from the LoV around them, +wounds ftw.
This banner isn't broken, it's just great. People haven't had real broken since 4th edition when all we played was CharacterHammer. That was all broken.
The best method for defeating this banner is staying the hell away from it or tarpitting it. Your opponent is counting on your to engage it (if they have stacked characters in it), so engage it... with what they don't want. A hundred man unit of Zombies, Horde formation Ghouls, Spirit Hosts, Bat Swarms, whatever... anything to keep it occupied.
Let'um burn chaff all day and concentrate on winning the game, which doesn't have anything to do with Banner of the World Dragon.