Dealing with High Elf Frost Phoenix
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Yeah I'd say it's a job for the terrorgheist. Fortunately I don't think that it has that many targets in a HE army so it should be fine.
Blender lord with Ogre blade will wound it on a 4+. Giant blade will wound on a 3+. if he doesn't roll a 6 for his winds of magic all it will have is a 5+ ward save. Otherwise if you want to not risk your lord's exposure to deal with one model just scream at it with a TG.
Edit: If you aren't opposed to blood knights; just charge him with 5 of those. It should die from that charge. But no one takes BloodK's which I find sad. I like to mix it up and detach from TG reliance and take BloodK's every now and then.
Edit: If you aren't opposed to blood knights; just charge him with 5 of those. It should die from that charge. But no one takes BloodK's which I find sad. I like to mix it up and detach from TG reliance and take BloodK's every now and then.
The best way to deal with a Phoenix of any kind is how we deal with everything.
Scream, Blender (With TOS) or generic tarpit.
If it has a rider he also dies when the mount does if you have read the rules for it, in the case of the Flamespyre however he can return with his mount as well.
At times I think we need more tactics, we kind of have a short solution list that we just copy and past into the box where the answer for anything new is......
A Blender Lord with Ogre Blade is Strength 7, it is toughness 6.
You need 3's against frost, 2's against fire.
Frost is a little stronger but does not come back to life.
Scream, Blender (With TOS) or generic tarpit.
If it has a rider he also dies when the mount does if you have read the rules for it, in the case of the Flamespyre however he can return with his mount as well.
At times I think we need more tactics, we kind of have a short solution list that we just copy and past into the box where the answer for anything new is......
Abhorash. said:
A Blender Lord with Ogre Blade is Strength 7, it is toughness 6.
You need 3's against frost, 2's against fire.
Frost is a little stronger but does not come back to life.
Duke Danse Macabre said:The best way to deal with a Phoenix of any kind is how we deal with everything.
Scream, Blender (With TOS) or generic tarpit.
If it has a rider he also dies when the mount does if you have read the rules for it, in the case of the Flamespyre however he can return with his mount as well.
At times I think we need more tactics, we kind of have a short solution list that we just copy and past into the box where the answer for anything new is......
Abhorash. said:
A Blender Lord with Ogre Blade is Strength 7, it is toughness 6.
You need 3's against frost, 2's against fire.
Frost is a little stronger but does not come back to life.
The Frostheart Phoenix has a blizzard aura applied to any unit in contact with it; effectively giving that unit -1 strength and ASL. So you would need the Giant blade to wound it on a 3+. However the Flamespyre Phoenix is alot weaker; that one does not concern me as much.
Poison attacks, screams, blender lords, heavy cav charges... beat it down like you would anything else.
edit - Krell. Krell will kill the shit out of it.
edit - Krell. Krell will kill the shit out of it.
Given that the thing is flying it will be possible for the opponent to position the bird in a way that it will be hard to get a charge off witht the unit you want. Of course this depends on the situation.
Tomfoolery said:
As much as I love Krelling things having Kemmler there as well is asking for trouble.
It has magical attacks odds are it will go straight for the Nercomancer.
Duke Danse Macabre said:Tomfoolery said:
As much as I love Krelling things having Kemmler there as well is asking for trouble.
It has magical attacks odds are it will go straight for the Nercomancer.
Well with Krell throwing down gauntlets every time he comes in contact with a character what is the rule for single models refusing challenges? He can't move to the back of himself.
The Sun King said:
I doubt that. Let's do the math on it:
Frostheart Phoenix vs. 40 Ghouls:
Frostheart Phoenix charges (orders of magnitude more mobile). We'll assume +1I on Attuned to Magic, to not swing things in any significant way.
Frostheart Phoenix strikes first. 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.
Math: (4)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 2.22 Wounds
Thunderstomps strike tied for second. D6 autohits, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.
Math: (7/2)*(5/6) = 2.92 Wounds
Ghouls strike tied for second. 16 attacks, hitting on 4+ (autowounding on 6s), wounding on 6s, allowing 5+ armor, 5+ Ward.
Math: (16)*([1/3]*[1/6] + [1/6])*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.58 Wounds
HE Wounds: 2.22 + 2.92 = 5.14 ~ 5 Wounds (35 Ghouls remain)
VC Wounds: 1.58 ~ 2 Wounds (Phoenix has 3 Wounds left)
HE CR: +5 Wounds +1 charge = +6
VC CR: +2 Wounds +3 ranks = +5
HE win by 1, VC crumble by 1 (34 Ghouls remain).
As you can imagine, if the fight remains in a holding pattern, the Ghouls will probably grind the Phoenix down across the course of 3-4 rounds, which is not the worst result out there (staggeringly unlikely to happen, though, as no HE player will charge a Phoenix into a Ghoul Horde alone, and you're not catching it with M4 Ghouls). Let's check out how Grave Guard fare:
Frostheart Phoenix vs. 40 Grave Guard, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows:
Frostheart Phoenix charges (orders of magnitude more mobile). We'll assume +1I on Attuned to Magic, to not swing things in any significant way.
Frostheart Phoenix strikes first. 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.
Math: (4)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 2.22 Wounds
Thunderstomps strike tied for second. D6 autohits, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.
Math: (7/2)*(5/6) = 2.92 Wounds
Grave Guard strike tied for second. 12 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 5+, allowing 5+ Ward.
Math: (12)*(2/3)*(1/3)*(2/3) = 1.78 Wounds
HE Wounds: 2.22 + 2.92 = 5.14 ~ 5 Wounds (35 Grave Guard remain)
VC Wounds: 1.78 ~ 2 Wounds (Phoenix has 3 Wounds left)
HE CR: +5 Wounds +1 charge = +6
VC CR: +2 Wounds +3 ranks +1 banner = +6
VC win by 1 (Musician).
As could have been perhaps surmised at the start, the Grave Guard fare a bit better against it, though that should be expected of a unit that clocks in at more than twice the price of the Phoenix itself. Either way, I wouldn't call that a "slaughter", or anything close to it. Gheist or Snipe them off the board, 'cause your infantry won't do a good enough job of it, especially when you consider they'll be getting laid into by a High Elf block at the same time.
Being able to fly is one of the beasties greatest strengths. Tying it up with a tarpit or setting into it with a big unit of Ghouls or Graveguard is very nice in theory, but in reality if you've managed to catch a flyer with your infantry, you've outplayed your opponent so soundly that the end of the game is already a foregone conclusion. Relying on catching it with infantry is a long shot, IMO. You might be able to pull it off, but it's very unlikely.
A better bet is to try and magic/scream it to death, or catch it with our own flyers or cavalry. Personally, I think this is a good job for Dire Wolves. Charge in, issue a challenge with your Doom Wolf (champions can still issue challenges, right?) and sure you'll lose him, and then another five from crumble, but you've pinned him in place for a turn and can either deal with him later, or set up a charge with a more powerful unit.
A better bet is to try and magic/scream it to death, or catch it with our own flyers or cavalry. Personally, I think this is a good job for Dire Wolves. Charge in, issue a challenge with your Doom Wolf (champions can still issue challenges, right?) and sure you'll lose him, and then another five from crumble, but you've pinned him in place for a turn and can either deal with him later, or set up a charge with a more powerful unit.
You're right Roth, that isn't a slaughter - I just never leave home without Dual Engiens which is why I considered it a slaughter, but hey haven't done the math on that either. I think you're right though, no HE player in his right mind would charge that bird into a horde alone. Dunno, somehow I'm just not afraid of it, but we'll see when I get a couple of games against it.
Then Shareya can sleep again.