Dear Johnny

[rothgar13]

You make an impassioned defense of Dwarfs, and I agree with you to an extent. That said, I've played against many different flavors of Dwarf lists with my Beastmen (an army that plays right into their hands, in theory), and I've rarely had trouble with them. The main reason why is their utter lack of maneuverability - M3 is just a bad, bad thing, and an army like Beastmen (with tons of extra PD and multiple castings of Miasma per Magic phase) can make it even worse. The second is that their offensive potential is limited, as can be expected of an army that doesn't really feature any offensive perks apart from easy access to Great Weapons and solid WS values (no 2- or 3-attack models, no Hatred/Frenzy, nothing). Thirdly, and let's be real about this - not having access to magic is a real issue, because the best you can do is break even (and it won't always happen), and even then there are matchups that can beat you. I think success with Dwarfs has a lot more to do with the player minimizing their weaknesses than it does with the strengths of the list itself.

 

[Gatti]

I am not arguing they should be top half, but not bottom. I think TK, OnG, and WE are lower. Dwarfs are hard to use, no arguing there. I'd say they are more difficult to use than WE, because everyone knows what they will do before the game starts. That said, there are combinations that can be deadly. A good dwarf player can really shine in a way. I also think there are fewer 'bad' matchups, simply because they face all armies the same way. DE and Ogres are their only really bad matchups, for magic and speed, respectively. Other lists they handle similarly, and, while repetitive, a good dwarf will know how to handle any situation. I could never win with dwarfs, and would have a much better chance with WE, but that's because I'm all offense, and have yet to field a warmachine in 10 years of warhammer. That said, I think to put them at the bottom is just incorrect.

I also think ranking is a bit weird because of meta shifts. In my local group, daemons are owned by 50% of the players, and many others use skaven, with a smattering of lizards and other lists (I am the only VC player, and one of 2 HE players). In that meta, combined with the fact that one of my common opponents online, as mentioned above, is so highly ranked with dwarfs (he hasn't finished outside the top 5 in any tournament in his home country), dwarfs may be stronger in my realm than in yours. Dwarfs can hurt daemons badly, as greater daemons are pretty regular in my group, as are bloodletter hordes (can someone say template magnets?). Meta makes a large contribution to this ranking, I think.

 

[Yorga]

Dwarves are the single reason I don't use the "Twin Towers" in my Skaven army. Dwarves and Empire are the reason I won't play with Zombie dragons.

Have not seen the 50 point single troll slayer redirector. Thanks for the tip Gatti. I'll pass it on to my son.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I wish I saw more of them

Honestly Dwarves shoot way up in my list with my little errata, my god they get tough with 3 rules changes.

 

[Yorga]

I wish I saw more of them

Honestly Dwarves shoot way up in my list with my little errata, my god they get tough with 3 rules changes.

What 3 rules changes?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Dwarven Standard Bearers give stubborn to their unit and Hammerers are unbreakable
Slayers have a 6+ ward and MR1
Anvil has a strike that gives hatred and its master strike is D3 unit

 

[Gatti]

Have not seen the 50 point single troll slayer redirector. Thanks for the tip Gatti. I'll pass it on to my son.

No problem, glad to expose people to new ideas . I've even seen people spend 5-10 pts on runic weapons to make them dual purpose. For under 10 pts you can give the dragonslayer the rune of burning, giving him magical and flaming attacks (for etheral and regen, respectively). Obviously the slayer hits before great weapon-wielding dwarfs, and, being a slayer, auto-wounds on 4+ regardless of what hes attacking (well, except for a sphinx, but they don't have regen anyway). This makes him chaff in some circumstances, or he can drop etherals (useful against you), or he can combo charge with a GW horde to remove regen before they swing (useful against crypt horrors or trolls).

EDIT: Johnny, like those edits! I could see that making them much better.

 

[rothgar13]

But that's not saying much, to be honest with you. A whole lot of armies would be better if their standard-bearers made them Stubborn and if they had access to a Unbreakable Great Weapon unit. I do like the Anvil tweak, though - it's pretty minor and it addresses an area of need.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

That should read Battle Standard Bearer (much like Chaos Dwarves)

 

[rothgar13]

More or less the same applies, though. Could you imagine how much better Beastmen would be if the 206 made the Gor Horde Stubborn, for example? It's a huge risk mitigator. What I think Dwarfs need is a Monstrous Infantry choice with decent-to-good M in order to validate the existence of some of their anvil units (think Ancestor Statues or some such), access to BRB items as well as a reduced version of their runic list, and some more aggressive runes in their Anvil of Doom.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

But it fits with Dwarven fluff, it does not fit with Beastmen fluff. The errata is trying incorporate more of their lore while also improving the book.

 

[rothgar13]

Ld9 base on all the boys strikes me as enough in that regard - even when losing and outnumbered, odds are they'll still hang on. And it should be pointed out that the entry requirements for being a Beastmen chieftain are strength of arms and iron will.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

No it is who has the biggest rackerv:




Of horns:tongue:

 

[rothgar13]

Where do you think the confidence comes from? It's a horn-measuring contest, of course. :tongue:

 

[Johnny-Crass]

In the old book i loved the story about chieftans tiing their hands behind their backs and fighting to the death with just horns.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Ok I just have to say I am LOVING the Chaos Dwarves and the way they play. I have no problems with the book or its unit synergy and I honestly enjoy playing them almost more than my brets.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Ok I just have to say I am LOVING the Chaos Dwarves and the way they play. I have no problems with the book or its unit synergy and I honestly enjoy playing them almost more than my brets.

I ran a CD list last week, and i'm giving it another go Sunday. What have you found that works for them? I'm running a big unit of 6 Bull Centaurs with two Centaur heroes in it this weekend, 40 Warriors with GW, lavacannon, iron daemon, and hellcannon for starters.

EDIT-
Not looking for a list, that is. I've read your's. Tips is more what I was asking about.

 

[Yorga]

But it fits with Dwarven fluff, it does not fit with Beastmen fluff. The errata is trying incorporate more of their lore while also improving the book.

This is a wish list you are talking about, right?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Personal Errata I have playtested with my local group. I have a few for different books to bring them more into 8th.

 

[rothgar13]

Gods know the 6th ed. books need it. The paradigm has changed enough that it's almost like we're playing a different game.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

bretonnia got three things in my errata and I do not have enough games with woodies for them to have one yet.

 

[Gatti]

What were bretonnia's? Bretonnians fit well into the 8th ed game. Very good in the hands of a capable general. Maybe a boost to questing knights or grail knights as they are not as solid choices for brets in 8th ed?

 

[Adam_Barrow]

bretonnia got three things in my errata and I do not have enough games with woodies for them to have one yet.

A Bret friend of mine has some ideas. He hates that his Cav units can't break giant 8th edition units on the charge. He wants Impact Hits, called a holy blessing or whatever fluff fits. Maybe d6+1 per rank or something of the like.

And I think they need to play up the haunted Green Knight angle and make Brets the only other army with an Ethereal unit. Ghostly knights or big spirit monstrous infantry or something. Brets are all about setting up the right charge and MI Ethereals would go a long way to controlling charge lanes on the table.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I too am a Bretonnian player and why my winrecord is almost spotless with them I have toyed around with a few things like.

As long as a unit has the blessing and is in lance formation they can devastatimg charge.

And giving them Lore of Light

 

[Adam_Barrow]

My dude starts to wishlisting when my TG melts his Grails. Totally agree with Lore of Light.