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Do you feel put off at all?

Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#26
Forgive my ignorance, but what does ETC stand for anyways?

And talk about being bloody confusing... my god, if I ever want to completely suck the life out of a party, I'd invite the guys that came up with that ETC list and all it's restrictions along.. they would certainly do the trick... what a load of friggin' crock... the guys that came up with that ETC list must keep their handbags on them at all times... :rolleyes:
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
13
#27
People need to suck it up and play the game. If they think their army is so in need of a crutch than stop playing that army. I have seen good players wipe the field with Ogres, and thats an army that is at the bottom of the list.

The Shadowmage

Just where death is expecting you is something we cannot know; so, for your part, expect him everywhere.
 

Tal Rasha

Grave Guard
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
208
#28
Arion said:
A year ago woodelves were viewed as stupidly overpowered. Now, they are viewed as a middle tier, 50/50 army, a normal not to powerful army.
Yes, but that initial view died within the first few months of release when they realized their weaknesses. The High Elves were seen as uber good upon release, also. Believe it or not, the Tomb Kings were seen that way, also. But most of that died off. Now WE are middle tier, HE are upper tier, but not uber, and TK are bottom tier. VC and Daemons have true power - the kind that doesn't fade away. They've been out for almost a year, and I've still only lost one game (and that one only due to pure luck on the dice). And that isn't player skill because I'm not that great.

VC are silly powerful. You can limit yourself to only one or two vampires, and less than 10 PD, and no Drakenhoff Banner. That helps. But it's still not enough. But I've been playing my DEs and my TK more and enjoying a more fair battle. People still groan about my Hydra or my Casket, but not nearly as much anything from the VC list. And the games are just more fun. It's sad, really, because Undead have always been my army, ever since I started back in 4th. Anyone that says VC are NOT overpowered really doesn't understand this game very well.
 

Vall

Skeleton
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
61
#29
If any undead player thinks its no longer entertaining to play as the counts, just switch over to the tomb kings. The kings are rather difficult to play with from what I understand, so it should prove a greater challenge.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#30
darknesseternal said:
Forgive my ignorance, but what does ETC stand for anyways?
European Tournament Championships. If I'm not mistaken, there will be a team of the best aussies coming up to join the fray this year; Charles Black, Bobo the Vampire Monkey and others.

More info http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewforum.php?f=18&sid=e8f24f211752dff6e28a6b372f21cbe4
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
74
#31
i was at origins and there was a warhammer tournament 2250 and there were some daemons there and they basically won the tournament. one of the people i was with was playing empire and was going on about how he had 70% core and come of these other armies had less in core than in charecters and what not. here's my feeling about the way comp scores are done and peoples feelings about vc in general. i think that composition should be judged differently depending on the army. sure its easy to build a competitive empire army thats 70% core because a. charecters are cheaper and b. the army as a whole is not nearly as reliant on those charecters. all armies are different. 70% core may be ok to do with empire or o and g but 70% core with vc is not going to be a very tournament competitive list. you'd get destroyed. yes there should be some comp requirements for everyone but the extreme differences in the armies of the game make it impossible for them all to be judged based on the same criteria. and as far as im concerened to outlaw or make certain magic items use up hero spots is wrong and takes fun out of playing.i would never play in a tournament with any of those rules. to say to anyone with any army that you cant take this because its too strong is a load of crap and should be stopped id never ask that of anyone.
 

Master Vampire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
2,342
#32
Tal Rasha said:
VC are silly powerful. You can limit yourself to only one or two vampires, and less than 10 PD, and no Drakenhoff Banner. That helps. But it's still not enough. But I've been playing my DEs and my TK more and enjoying a more fair battle. People still groan about my Hydra or my Casket, but not nearly as much anything from the VC list. And the games are just more fun. It's sad, really, because Undead have always been my army, ever since I started back in 4th. Anyone that says VC are NOT overpowered really doesn't understand this game very well.
This strikes me with interest. About half a year ago people stated the army powerful, but not undefeatable. Basically a lot of the VC actually got nerfed. 'Tis true that the new additions to the army are pretty strong. But nonetheless expensive and low in numbers. You need a good variation of both horde and loners to have a good matchup. Are there particular aspects of the army you find overpowered?

slayer666 said:
i was at origins and there was a warhammer tournament 2250 and there were some daemons there and they basically won the tournament. one of the people i was with was playing empire and was going on about how he had 70% core and come of these other armies had less in core than in charecters and what not. here's my feeling about the way comp scores are done and peoples feelings about vc in general. i think that composition should be judged differently depending on the army. sure its easy to build a competitive empire army thats 70% core because a. charecters are cheaper and b. the army as a whole is not nearly as reliant on those charecters. all armies are different. 70% core may be ok to do with empire or o and g but 70% core with vc is not going to be a very tournament competitive list. you'd get destroyed. yes there should be some comp requirements for everyone but the extreme differences in the armies of the game make it impossible for them all to be judged based on the same criteria. and as far as im concerened to outlaw or make certain magic items use up hero spots is wrong and takes fun out of playing.i would never play in a tournament with any of those rules. to say to anyone with any army that you cant take this because its too strong is a load of crap and should be stopped id never ask that of anyone.
You can get a great comp score with 70% score, I bet. But a winners army? The Empire's Core consists of basic rank & file, a militia, some skirmishing archers, a basic knights unit and a basic gunfire unit. Notice 'basic'. The best stuff for Empire is certainly put in Special and Rare.

You can achieve the same effect with VC. The only problem is, it will function slightly worse IMO. There's no shooting and no Heavy Cavalry.

In tournaments, you'll face specials and rares. And most killing machines are found in there. If you take only core this can get troublesome, as most killing machines work perfect against basics.

Cheers,
-MV
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
220
#33
Calling VC broken might be a little overreacting. Sure you can do a Deathstar, and players doing so should be ridiculed for their lack of tactical ability.

I've personally been butchering VC on a regular basis (butcher as in massacre), before I decided to try them out for myself (and I play the poor middle tier WE and WoC armies).

Its a fun army with a great mood and imagery in my book. If you try to play against them like any other army you get beaten, but when you learn their weaknesses and recognize their strengths, then sudddenly you see the VC for what they are. A rather limited army reliant on static CR – which really is an outdated concept in 7th ed.
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#34
I agree that VC can be overpowered, but it really depends on the game you are playing. In a friendly game of Warhammer, I can expect to get around a 1:1 win to loss ratio. In an ultra competitive game, perhaps higher because VC can put some very powerful combinations on the field.
Overall, sure, I am put off by over-powered armies. It's what stopped me from playing Wood Elves. When I was able to win in a 2,000 point game without losing more than six models I began to say that the army was crazy, and every game was a cakewalk. For this very reason, I refuse to use items like the Helm of Commandment or the Drakenhof banner in a friendly game. I want to feel as if I am winning games with tactics, so I agree completely. It's at a tournament when 50% of the players are playing Daemons anyway and the rest are probably better than me when I pull out the HoC.
Until then, I'll play like a general.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
45
#35
Myself i have one restriction of the Drakenhof banner and that is that i only use it if Vlad von Carstein is also part of the army. I consider it nececery for a fluffy representation of Vlads army to have a battle standard bearer with Vlads personal banner and i would be offended if anyone called my army overpowered just because it includes the Drakenhof banner. Myself i do not consider Vampire Counts overpowered, the list is just easily abused by powergamers that sacrifice good background just to win at all costs. From a fluff perspective, the Drakenhof banner should only be used if your vampire lord is an von Carstein as its makes no sense for a blood dragon army to have a banner made by Vlad von Carstein. I cannot comment on the helm of commandment because i have never used the item, but i think it can be fluffy in an Necrarch themed army.
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#36
I myself don't feel any qualms about using what powerful items that we have available to us, at least not when fighting my usual dark elf opponent. He is quite fond of sinking an unbeatable block of black guard along with a pair of hydras on me. The only thing that I have found able to withstand that are the dreaded HoC + Drakenhof-enhanced grave guard with great weapons. In one of our recent games, those two units collided on the second turn and duked it out till the very end, even after a hydra had attacked the grave guards' flank in turn 4. A true clash of the titans, heheh.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
26
#37
I believe that VC is a strong army, overpowered only when you abuse the list like taking 10 wraiths and 2 units of them coupled with the Helm of commandment and max out power dice. etc, its really not difficult to imagine how the game will go.

Regardless. For me, VC is my first army, mostly because when I first started I can't paint well and VC has a good learning curve for painting.:redface: But also, I thought Wightlords can lead armies, you see I was inspired by Lord Soth and his death knights from d&d. To be honest, VC can be fun and challenging to play depending on your build so I am really not bothered by anyone who calls it overpowered, because I know I don't bring overpowered list and my oponents usually agrees with that, though I can't say the same for other VC player in my group.:mrgreen:
 
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