Fear and Metal

[Aramoro]

Your logic and example makes sense, except one thing... what us WS0'ers are seeing it as is:

You have $10, you owe Mr Metal $1 by the combat phase so you have $9 to spare. But oh no the Skellies jumped you and took your $9 you had to spare so when Mr Metal comes for his money in the combat phase you hand it to him and you're slap broke. The sequencing of when the events happen doesn't really matter because you'll still owe Mr Metal regardless at least until the next magic phase.

I see both sides of this coin and both logics, honestly I think neither is wrong till there's an errata. However I see MORE logic in the WS0 crowd's argument.

But I don't owe Mr Metal £1, he's already taken it, no matter what happens I'll be down £1. When the Skeletons scare me they will look how much money I have and scare £8 out of my pockets as they reduce me to £1. They don't look at my maximum money I had at any point in time and reduce that figure to 1, they reduce what it is right now to 1.

 

[CountVoldemort]

The effects of Transmutation Have ALREADY been applied, in the magic phase, when you applied them. You know when you resolved the spell effects and applied the effect to the WS of the target unit. In the magic phase.

How do you explain Doom and Darkness with this perception?
7-3, Ld4, general walks within range with Ld 9. Now they are at 9-3, even though they've already "paid" in the magic phase according to you. How is that possible, if that were the case?

 

[Questioner]

Because the effects are applied in the magic phase, but they continue to have the same effect in other phases.

 

[Nedar]

Hex spells do not modify your state. They alter the stat's value when you check it to be used.

A hex of -1 toughness is NOT the same as the skaven spell that reduces your toughness by 1.

You're all saying that Hex's reduce your profile stat by XYZ when it is cast and resolved. That is not how they work, they apply the hex on the unit that has XYZ effect when it is needed.

It is:

Apply hex (hex=1).
Weapon skill is at X-hex now. Not a new value.
During combat phase you fail fear test and X is set to 1.
Weapon skill is still X-hex. (You use this whenever you check the stat, as needed)
1-1 is often times zero.

The FAQ on Doom and Darkness-like effects + Inspiring Presence sets this precedence. Again, show me where this thought process is wrong and i'll concede.

Here:

Apply hex (hex=3).
Leadership is X-hex now.
You move your general into range, X is set to 10.
You need to make a leadership test, it is now X-hex.
10-3 is often times seven.

Exact same thought process for exact same modifications of base stats and hexes.

If it worked like you guys are claiming then D&D would be ignored and IP would give you generals' leadership regardless of any hex's.

 

[maxtoreador]

But I don't owe Mr Metal £1, he's already taken it, no matter what happens I'll be down £1. When the Skeletons scare me they will look how much money I have and scare £8 out of my pockets as they reduce me to £1. They don't look at my maximum money I had at any point in time and reduce that figure to 1, they reduce what it is right now to 1.

That's where the disagreement is spawning between the WS1 and WS0 crowds. You guys see it that he (in our storyline here) takes the money as soon as you owe it, we see it that it's bill owed and therefore unspendable.

WS1 Scenario:
You have $10
Mr Metal says you owe him, takes $1 leaving $9
Skelly Gang takes your money but leaves you $1

WS0 Scenario:
You have $10
Mr Metal says you owe him $1, you owe $1 and have $9 that is spendable
Skelly Gang takes your money but leaves you $1, you owe $1 and have $0 to spend
Your $1 is owed to Mr. Metal so you're broke because Mr Metal is an A-hole and doesn't care if you were jumped.

 

[Nedar]

The money analogy only works if you remember that the "owed" money is collected when you need to use it.

I have $4.
Mr. Metal imparts a $1 debt to me.
Skeletons mug me down to $1.
I go to use my $1, but when I do, Mr. Metal THEN collects his debt.
I now have $0.

Doom and Darkness FAQ set's precedence.

 

[Tawg]

But I don't owe Mr Metal £1, he's already taken it, no matter what happens I'll be down £1. When the Skeletons scare me they will look how much money I have and scare £8 out of my pockets as they reduce me to £1. They don't look at my maximum money I had at any point in time and reduce that figure to 1, they reduce what it is right now to 1.

But it doesn't say that anywhere in the rules, that you apply an effect once and proceed from there with that new value. You would apply each effect as many times as you need to; (I don't know any effects off hand but bear with me).

If there were two effects applied to a unit of T3, one giving them -1 (No minimum) and one giving them -2 (Min 1), which scenario would result? Is that completely dependent on which is cast first? That makes sense, and I can accept that, but that is not what the argument is here. That's rather a simple example of applying them in order of casting/use.

How about if we had the -3T from some spell cast by the opponent. Then we cast the #6 spell from Best to turn into some godawful dragon thing with T6. (I'm going out on a branch here but) The spell doesn't use the word 'increase' in it's wording. In fact in the spell they use the word 'Transmogrify.' So is the -3T applied after this spell, which I would argue is 'increasing' his values to the monsters values, or does he suffer the effect of a spell which is still effecting him. Because your way makes him 'Dispell' the debuff (Which for my example was a 1 turn remains in play, the kind you can't even dispel at all) by 'increasing' a value, OR you have to argue with your opponent over the wording difference between 'increase' and 'Transmogrify' (A bit hazy in the BRB).

I see your case, and I don't even necessarily disagree with it (It would certainly be painful to do to an opponent, and most likely not engender a 'Fun Experience') but I fail to see why a debuff that stacks with other debuffs is put in this situation. Actually I find it odd they don't already have an FAQ for this somewhere, since Metal and Fear are neither from our Army book, and this issue must exist for some other players somewhere out there.

But still, what I'm saying is that if you pick the rules apart by their wording choice then you are a fool (No offense). Games Workshop doesn't even know how to keep their rule books in any sort of set order or common parlance, they just throw things around that often require an FAQ to be ruled 'Correctly.' Honestly, as far as I'm concerned the BRB is a guide-line more than anything, since many rules interactions need to simply be agreed on (Or 'Golden Rule' rolled off).

I got a reply:
"Thanks for the email, the fear rule would supersede the spell effects and they would use WS 1.

We hope this helps.

Regards

Kyle Workman

Games Workshop Customer Service

tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000"

You got an answer from a single employee. That well could be his opinion (As I feel most rules are, especially the less logical ones; Killing Blow doesn't effect skinks when a Kroxigor is with them? Why? Why is that true?). Besides what people said about official FAQs being the only actual changes/agreements for the rules.

 

[maxtoreador]

Emailed GW back when we first got started on this tirade. Finally found the e-mail in my spam folder from 3 days ago. Apparently this is something they never thought about, after talking amongst the developers they decided the fear overriding the spell would cause too many other rule problems and the 0 would be broken but correct.

 

[Tawg]

Emailed GW back when we first got started on this tirade. Finally found the e-mail in my spam folder from 3 days ago. Apparently this is something they never thought about, after talking amongst the developers they decided the fear overriding the spell would cause too many other rule problems and the 0 would be broken but correct.

It'd be funny to see how many different answers we could get :lol:

At any rate, with my friends, I would most likely play it as going to 1. Or you could borrow from the Shooting rules, instead of making it 'Auto-hit/No Attacks' and make them, at WS 0, hit on 7+ (6, then 4+) and you hit on 3+ (Or 2+ if the challenge of the combo is not too easy.)

The game still demands you discuss things with who ever you're playing with, since they are nearly so ambiguous.

Although on a related note, it obviously matters who you're playing against. Since nearly half the armies in the campaign I'm part of are either Immune to Psychology (DoC/TK), or Cold Blooded (3x Lizards), so the whole 'Fear factor' would be a pretty daunting task to get off (Not to mention if a Lizard wants to make sure a spell isn't going off, he has good odds). But then against the Dark Elves/Britonians/Skaven in the group it could be far more devastating against, since the fear could work more easily.

 

[arbogast]

Emailed GW back when we first got started on this tirade. Finally found the e-mail in my spam folder from 3 days ago. Apparently this is something they never thought about, after talking amongst the developers they decided the fear overriding the spell would cause too many other rule problems and the 0 would be broken but correct.

Ha! They didn't "think about it?" You mean with a paragraph talking about what happens if your WS gets reduced to 0. And ToL being the only spell they didn't put a basement cap on for stat reduction? And fundamentally changing how Fear works in this edition?

Really, WHO do they have play-testing these things?

 

[maxtoreador]

Ha! They didn't "think about it?" You mean with a paragraph talking about what happens if your WS gets reduced to 0. And ToL being the only spell they didn't put a basement cap on for stat reduction? And fundamentally changing how Fear works in this edition?

Really, WHO do they have play-testing these things?

I think what they didn't factor in was the idea of something stacking with fear. You have to admit that this is a mildly rare occurrence for you to take metal, get that spell off without a dispel, AND that unit to also fail a fear test.

Basically what they told me was it was very 'unsportsmanlike to build an army with this intent' but that it is RAW.

It is amusing that we've got two completely different answers from the guys at GW, I didn't even see that till Tawg mentioned it.

 

[Nedar]

Interesting that everyone ignored the blatant evidence/precedence in the FAQ that i've mentioned. Doom and Darkness applies when leadership is checked, so is any hex that modifies a statistic.

As for playtesting...as much as I hate to doomsay, I feel that GW does very little testing of their rules. What testing they do is done by people that do not grasp rules concepts well enough to find these issues. It seems to be common occurrence with "higher ups" in any facet of human society imo. Working at a restaurant, the managers very quickly lose the ability to understand how things work at the lower levels.

I like what GW does, but they could REALLY benefit from some real feedback on their rules. I would wager that the secrecy (and much enhanced secrecy of late especially) doesn't help the matter in any way.

 

[Grish]

Honestly after giving this a lot of thought I don't think Doom and Darkness is a precedent. I think it's an exception that needs to be spelled out in the FAQ or any Leadership spells inside the General's Inspiring Presence would have no effect.

If you have the belief that spell effects are applied in Order, then any changes to Leadership would have no effect, because the Inspiring presence would constantly override it (it comes into effect later).

Model has LD8, Doom and Darkness applied (LD5), needs to make a test, uses the General's Inspiring Presence (LD10).
This would mean that no Leadership spells would ever work against units within the General's Range. So it needed a FAQ.

I believe it's a specific exception now that's needed.

There is also the italics text on page 31 of the BRB saying that Hexes cannot normally take a stat below 1. This is some disagreement here of whether that applies to ToL. There's two camps:

1) Text says hexes can't normally take any characteristic below 1. ToL doesn't specify it can (unlike some Skaven spells for example) so by default, it takes the General Rule of not being able to reduce it below 1.

2) Text says hexes can't normally take any characteristic below 1. Every other spell says 'to a minimum of 1' but ToL doesn't, so all the extra wording defines 'normally' and thus ToL is the exception.

What camp your in depends on whether you think when the rule book says "Normally something can't do something" if you need a specific exception to break it. I think it does.

I did not see this before I started researching this question. I'm now firmly back into believing that ToL is applied BEFORE Fear, and that even it was applied later, I do not think it's an exceptional Hex that can reduce the WS below 1. Note that Mark of Nurgle is not a hex so does not have this applied.

I still do not see why people think that if there's mutliple spells/effects in use, use the 'set' ones first, and then apply modifiers. This isn't spelled out anywhere, so I would assume the default position is to just apply things as you go along.

 

[Nedar]

How is it not a precedence? It is a Hex. It is worded nearly exactly the same (D&D is a RIP spell, Metal spell is not). They both function identically, but on different stats.

The FAQ says D&D modifies the stat even after it is "set" to a specified value. Exact same function as Transmutation of Lead.

Fear sets WS to 1. Then when you need your WS you are at -1.


Now, bringing up Pg. 32(for me) of the BRB about Hexes not normally reduction a stat below 1 is a valid point that no one has yet postulated.

This is a completely different idea in that it's another classic oversight of GW in their own rules by stating all of the -stat powers can't reduce to 0, yet one spell does not. Since it doesn't it can be argued that it can.

This should be the focus of the argument, not the "sequencing" people have been.

 

[arbogast]

Now, bringing up Pg. 32(for me) of the BRB about Hexes not normally reduction a stat below 1 is a valid point that no one has yet postulated.

This is a completely different idea in that it's another classic oversight of GW in their own rules by stating all of the -stat powers can't reduce to 0, yet one spell does not. Since it doesn't it can be argued that it can.

This should be the focus of the argument, not the "sequencing" people have been.

=I did bring that up (along with why ToL is the exception):
"Not that bonuses and penalties from hex, augment, and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1. (p.31).
Note that ToL does not have this limitation of less than 1 (though all other spells specifically state the limitation (reduce to a minimum value of 1) in their description)."

=It seems clear that few people are willing to change their minds (which is their prerogative), especially given both sides have given this quite a bit of thought and believe evidence is on their side.

I guess we'll have to wait for the official FAQ.

 

[Grish]

Sorry Arbo, obviously missed that.

The main reason I don't accept that Doom and Darkness is a precedent is that if it was applied in order, is that most of time it wouldn't have any effect as it would be overriden by Inspiring Presence. Thus due to people likely saying (I'm postulating) that it would have no effect the majority of the time, was it given a specific FAQ to address the issue. This is just my speculation, but it is a FAQ to a specific situation, and not general in any way. I think spells and effects are always applied in order, no reason not to think so.

I've posted a thread up on Warseer to see if the larger community has any stronger arguments to sequencing of spells/effects/abilities.

Thread can be found here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?333469-Spell-Ability-order-of-effect

 

[Chaos_Born]

This is not an issue of sequencing, or accumulative nature of hexes. This is simply the fear rule being a rule, not a hex. It says 'have their WS reduced to 1'. This means that it doesn't care if you have an awesome sword of WS 10, or speed of light, or negative modifiers. Your WS is reduced, by whatever it needs to be, down to 1. This dumps all over anything else and even if your WS should be 2 because of a hex reducing it, it will be 1 for the remainder of that round of combat.

If there was a hex spell that read 'reduce target's WS to 1' then i would say that yes, their WS is 0. However fear cares not for your puny spells or effects:Vampire1:

Also as a side note arbogast, how would you resolve speed of light and a failed fear test. You have to aply them both right, so what is the units WS and why. Be careful with your explanation because you will then be forced to fit it in with your arguement. Enjoy!

 

[Tawg]

As for playtesting...as much as I hate to doomsay, I feel that GW does very little testing of their rules. What testing they do is done by people that do not grasp rules concepts well enough to find these issues. It seems to be common occurrence with "higher ups" in any facet of human society imo. Working at a restaurant, the managers very quickly lose the ability to understand how things work at the lower levels.

I firmly believe they do not put thought into such things; Again, they don't make their money with it, and people still eat it up, why bother with something so complicated? :lol:

Honestly after giving this a lot of thought I don't think Doom and Darkness is a precedent. I think it's an exception that needs to be spelled out in the FAQ or any Leadership spells inside the General's Inspiring Presence would have no effect.

If you have the belief that spell effects are applied in Order, then any changes to Leadership would have no effect, because the Inspiring presence would constantly override it (it comes into effect later).

Model has LD8, Doom and Darkness applied (LD5), needs to make a test, uses the General's Inspiring Presence (LD10).
This would mean that no Leadership spells would ever work against units within the General's Range. So it needed a FAQ.

I believe it's a specific exception now that's needed.

There is also the italics text on page 31 of the BRB saying that Hexes cannot normally take a stat below 1. This is some disagreement here of whether that applies to ToL. There's two camps:

1) Text says hexes can't normally take any characteristic below 1. ToL doesn't specify it can (unlike some Skaven spells for example) so by default, it takes the General Rule of not being able to reduce it below 1.

2) Text says hexes can't normally take any characteristic below 1. Every other spell says 'to a minimum of 1' but ToL doesn't, so all the extra wording defines 'normally' and thus ToL is the exception.

What camp your in depends on whether you think when the rule book says "Normally something can't do something" if you need a specific exception to break it. I think it does.

I did not see this before I started researching this question. I'm now firmly back into believing that ToL is applied BEFORE Fear, and that even it was applied later, I do not think it's an exceptional Hex that can reduce the WS below 1. Note that Mark of Nurgle is not a hex so does not have this applied.

I still do not see why people think that if there's mutliple spells/effects in use, use the 'set' ones first, and then apply modifiers. This isn't spelled out anywhere, so I would assume the default position is to just apply things as you go along.

That does not make Doom and Darkness any less of the same issue, that just means that it would have been such a rules issue without an FAQ GW was forced to put one out. That doesn't imply that since they put out an FAQ for it specifically it follows different rules. Plus I don't really think it's safe with Warhammer rules to use any sort of Transitive property to assume the rules function the same as others. GW's diction is the equivalent of a scatter-brained teenage girl, that BRB could have been written in sections by 10 different people without any cross-over knowledge and have come out just as cohesive. Word choice varies, sometimes by the sentence (For no reason), and rules often attempt to prohibit themselves/each other.

And them doing the rules as such for Hex's also puts forth a false sense of precedence that lulls people into thinking two different things; 1 or 2 could be true, and although it would make the most sense to just call it safe and use 2 (No Hex can make 0 stats) the fact that they also explicitly wrote that out on the majority of the spells just leaves wriggle room for people to argue. And it's impossible to tell their intent unless they release an FAQ on the issue.

And about how I figure it, As well as Nedar:

How is it not a precedence? It is a Hex. It is worded nearly exactly the same (D&D is a RIP spell, Metal spell is not). They both function identically, but on different stats.

The FAQ says D&D modifies the stat even after it is "set" to a specified value. Exact same function as Transmutation of Lead.

Fear sets WS to 1. Then when you need your WS you are at -1.

And again, since GW took the liberty of NOT defining part of their game, this leaves it open to interpretation, but this is how I see things:

Use an equation like ((Stat = Value) - Pen + Bonus). So in any given situation, it would look like, let's say Ld 7 with D&D in their generals bubble (Ld 9).

((Stat = (Normally 7) 9) - 3 (D&D) + (None)) for a total of 6, which is how GW has stated it should work.

Now with WS 4 + Fear + Metal I get this

((Stat = (Normally 4) 1) - 1 (Metal) + (None)) for a total of .. 0.

And that is more logical to me than 'Playing' with the current value like
"Ok it was -1 before for a 3.. now take 3 and make it 1.."
I mean, I see the point of that, I just disagree with the flow. That isn't how I see numbers working ever, I view the end stat as an out-put of an equation not a trail of separate mathematical functions. (WS4-1: 3; WS3 Down to 1: 1; )

At any rate, I still believe that BRB is a guideline at best, and you can only hope to have such talks with your individual gaming groups because GW is surely not going to put out an FAQ for every issue they have (Since there are so many I'm sure). Games Workshop doesn't even know how to keep their rule books in any sort of set order or common parlance, they just throw things around that often require an FAQ to be ruled 'Correctly.' Honestly, as far as I'm concerned the BRB is a guide-line more than anything, since many rules interactions need to simply be agreed on (Or 'Golden Rule' rolled off).

I'm Curious though, how other people would rule this example for me though:

If your Vampire Lord with Lore of Beast has Transformation of Kadon; On your opponents turn, they cast The Withering on him for -3T successfully and pass (They forgot they had more of a turn). Now on your turn, you decide to make yourself a Great Fire Dragon. What is your T? 8 or 5?

Kadon makes you 'Become' the creature in question, which would I assume increase your value to the monsters value. Why is there a clear line between this example and Fear?
It doesn't define it, so do we assume the Withering falls off? Like people assume that The Metal spell falls off? Where is the line, how did you draw it?

(Note: I still believe you end at WS1, for balance issue, and the aforementioned Hex no 0 rule; However I do not see why people think you would not constantly apply a debuff, that is absurd to me.)

 

[Tawg]

This is not an issue of sequencing, or accumulative nature of hexes. This is simply the fear rule being a rule, not a hex. It says 'have their WS reduced to 1'. This means that it doesn't care if you have an awesome sword of WS 10, or speed of light, or negative modifiers. Your WS is reduced, by whatever it needs to be, down to 1. This dumps all over anything else and even if your WS should be 2 because of a hex reducing it, it will be 1 for the remainder of that round of combat.

If there was a hex spell that read 'reduce target's WS to 1' then i would say that yes, their WS is 0. However fear cares not for your puny spells or effects:Vampire1:

Also as a side note arbogast, how would you resolve speed of light and a failed fear test. You have to aply them both right, so what is the units WS and why. Be careful with your explanation because you will then be forced to fit it in with your arguement. Enjoy!

Ok, so you are claiming that spells are cumulative because they are all spells, and Fear is removed from this bracket by being a Special Rule that has no bearing on spells or such.

This could be logical, and ends where we want it to (WS 1) but why is this not explicitly stated in Fear's rule? "..If the unit fails their Ld Test, their WS counts a 1 (Ignoring all other modifiers) for this round of combat" Why wouldn't they explicitly state it ignores other modifiers if it did? Why leave the room for people to use this word 'Reduce' which everyone seems fixated on, yet Gamesworkshop has no precedence as a company to use any logic behind their vernacular word choice, and they certainly don't use cohesive wording so you can follow other examples or define the use of words they put into the rules.

You're using your knowledge of outside the game, in regards to the word 'Reduce,' to ascertain how the rule should work, and.. GW just leaves it too open. Why is it "reducing" the end value with modifiers to 1? (4-1> 1) vs applying the modifier afterwords?

No where does it state that this is how you 'Reduce' a stat. No where does it say that Spells and Special rules counter each other, or either takes precedence over the other.

GW just makes jargon rules :grave:

 

[Chaos_Born]

The reason I infer that fear overrides other effects is my speed of light conundrum. The only way you can get a cohesive answer (ie, their WS can't be 1 and 10) is if you only use one of the effects. Fear overriding the spell is the only thing I can think of that doesn't blow my brain up. By the same token, I would expect any + augment to be overridden by fear-purely because other whys fear + speed of light would result in a unit that is both WS1 and WS10.

 

[arbogast]

Also as a side note arbogast, how would you resolve speed of light and a failed fear test. You have to aply them both right, so what is the units WS and why. Be careful with your explanation because you will then be forced to fit it in with your arguement. Enjoy!

[In bad Pacino accent] "Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in!"

So....here it goes.

1. I view setting a stat to a number (Reduce Stat Z to X) as different from numerical modifiers (+/- N to Stat Z). So, in this case, "reducing WS to 1 (for the remainder of the combat phase)" is different from "target suffers -1 to their WS (until the caster's next magic phase)". The former can be modified further, while the latter is cumulative with all other hexes and augments as long as they're in play.
2. I also believe that magic/mundane weapons give their bonuses after the hexes/augments have been applied. For example, a fella Enfeebled would still get his Great Weapon or Ogre Blade strength bonus when attacking with that weapon. [And yes, I believe the Fencer's Blades give WS10 when used as well, even though it's not as explicitly stated like the other weapons-there's too many precedents in the other weapons to ignore].
3. I also tend to view special rules as overriding general ones; the more specific the situation, the more it overrides. Example: You use your BS to determine what die roll you need to hit something. BUT, if you moved, you take a -1 penalty; AND, if the target is behind hard cover, you take another -1 penalty; AND, if the target is at long range, you take another -1 penalty; AND if you're a Wood Elf, you ignore the first penalty. (So the specific situation(s) overrides the general rule here).
4. I read 'spell duration' as taking effect during the entirety of that duration, not just when it goes off (otherwise, what's the point of a duration?). So, if a spell lasts until the caster's next magic phase, its effects occur in every phase, until the spell dissipates.
5. I believe the FAQ's D&D example is a precedent-setter (not an exception) because it's basically asking: "What happens if a unit is under the effects of a stat modifying effect and that stat is set to a different value?" GW's answer: the modifier applies to the new stat.
6. All 'Special Rules' (like Fear) and spells are classified as “Special Rules” and are cumulative (p.66).

Conclusions:
1. ToL lasts until the caster's next magic phase. The close combat phase occurs before this duration expires, so when the unit's WS gets set to 1 via failing a Fear test, the modifier still applies and it goes to 0.
2.A unit under Speed of Light (WS10) that fails a Fear test: I've changed my mind (!) and am inclined to say that it's WS 10 because even though the Fear test is a very specific situation (one combat phase) the augment still applies (like ToL). But, in a friendly game w/someone not privy to the 6 premises above, I'd dice off for their effects if my opponent disagreed (in the spirit of moving things along). [The most important rule and all that].
3. Deciding on sequencing of effects that occur at the same time is silly but is the rule (p.10). I'd agree that all effects of hexes and augments occur at the same time (in subsequent phases) and are cumulative, so the player who's turn it is gets to decide. Why's that silly? Because if a WS 3 unit that is under the effects of a full-boat (-3) Mystifying Miasma and ToL, that unit's WS is either 0 or 1 depending solely on who's turn it is! And that's a big difference in one point of stat fluctuation.
4. If a model is armed with the Fencer's blades, the bonuses from the weapon still apply and thus change its WS from 1 to 10 and is modified to 9 because of ToL.

Other crazy examples:
1. Why sequencing of spell casting does not matter: let's say a unit is hit with a -2 Withering (taking their T from 3 to 1). This lasts until the caster's next magic phase. In their owner's magic phase, they have a boosted Flesh to Stone (+4 T) (via Throne of Vines) cast on them, taking their T to 5. No problem so far, right? So what happens at the start of the opponent's magic phase? Does the unit stay at T4 even though the Withering expires and is no longer in play (simply b/c it was cast first)? Or does the unit go to T7 because their original T is back to 3 and is still under the effects of FtS? I can't see arguing the former (T5) at all; doing so would ignore the spells' durations.
2. A wizard with Van Horstman's Speculum swaps his base stats with his opponent. (That opponent still gets the benefit of his items, so the wizard doesn't get the +2S from an Ogre Blade in his opponent's hand). But would he suffer from the WS1 if his opponent failed a Fear test? (I thought yes originally, but since it's not his opponent's base stat, I'd have to say no).

Final Thoughts:
1. If you read this far, thanks! (And I'm sorry).
2. This is obviously something GW should address in the next FAQ!
3. Thanks for the thought-provoking debate!

 

[Aramoro]

Fear sets WS to 1. Then when you need your WS you are at -1.

I am very confused as to why people think Transmutation of Lead will only apply it's -1WS when you need to use your WS, it reduces your WS as soon a it's cast, right then and there in the magic phase you get -1 WS.

Fear reduces your WS from whatever it was to 1. So if in the Magic Phase Transmutation made your WS4 into WS3 if he fails he fear test his current WS will be reduced to 1. Fear does not reduce your WS 1, then reapply all other modifiers, if it did then it would say so.

I'll say it again. sequencing has nothing to do with this as the effects have been resolved at wildly different times. I think people are just too deep into some wacky thought experiment here and need to step back, take a moment and actually think about what they're saying and it will become apprent that it makes no sense.

 

[arbogast]

Fear reduces your WS from whatever it was to 1. So if in the Magic Phase Transmutation made your WS4 into WS3 if he fails he fear test his current WS will be reduced to 1. Fear does not reduce your WS 1, then reapply all other modifiers, if it did then it would say so.

=Ok, so what happens after the unit recovers from Fear; what does their WS go back to?

= If it's WS3, then you're still applying the effects of ToL.

= If it's WS4, then you're ignoring the spell duration of ToL.

= Your stance?

 

[maxtoreador]

Fear sets WS to 1. Then when you need your WS you are at -1.

I am very confused as to why people think Transmutation of Lead will only apply it's -1WS when you need to use your WS, it reduces your WS as soon a it's cast, right then and there in the magic phase you get -1 WS.

Fear reduces your WS from whatever it was to 1. So if in the Magic Phase Transmutation made your WS4 into WS3 if he fails he fear test his current WS will be reduced to 1. Fear does not reduce your WS 1, then reapply all other modifiers, if it did then it would say so.

I'll say it again. sequencing has nothing to do with this as the effects have been resolved at wildly different times. I think people are just too deep into some wacky thought experiment here and need to step back, take a moment and actually think about what they're saying and it will become apprent that it makes no sense.

That's the problem Aramoro; some of us have taken step back, took a moment and actually thought about what you're saying and to us those of you in the WS1 camp make little to no sense.

Gw can't even make up their minds on this issue, we've gotten 2 different answers from them.

I think this whole thread needs to come to an agree to disagree and be locked till this comes up in an errata because all we're doing is restating and rewording the same things over and over.

 

[Grish]

I think there's a third option there arbo.

We're reiterating the same things over and over. I started writing a reply to your post but I'm at work and cross referencing the rulebook is taking up too much time so I'll have to do it tonight. But a third option would be that you are not ignoring the duration, but you are 'ignoring' the effect. I use the word ignoring lightly; it would be as if you had a Vampire with Dread Knight and had Speed of Light cast on him. Using your logic, you would increase his base to 10, then add 2, giving him 12. But he's capped at 10. So those extra 2 are 'ignored'.

It's a similar line of thought here. Just as Dread Knight is still there with the example above, and is still applied after Speed of Light is gone, it's bonus does not have any effect. That is how I look at the ToL and Fear example.

Dread Knight is recalculated after Speed of Light is gone and ToL is recalculated after Fear is gone. In both cases even though there is no game effect it isn't really 'ignored'.

Edit: Oh, and if that Bretonnian with the +WS vow failed a fear test and was reduced to 1 WS (in my way of thinking) their Vow is still there, it just doesn't have a game effect. Same as how I think of the ToL and fear interacting.

[mod]Let's be civil here. Both sides have valid points and comments such as 'some of us have actually thought about it' are rude; please refrain.[/mod]