Fear and Metal

[arbogast]

I think there's a third option there arbo.

We're reiterating the same things over and over. I started writing a reply to your post but I'm at work and cross referencing the rulebook is taking up too much time so I'll have to do it tonight. But a third option would be that you are not ignoring the duration, but you are 'ignoring' the effect. I use the word ignoring lightly; it would be as if you had a Vampire with Dread Knight and had Speed of Light cast on him. Using your logic, you would increase his base to 10, then add 2, giving him 12. But he's capped at 10. So those extra 2 are 'ignored'.

It's a similar line of thought here. Just as Dread Knight is still there with the example above, and is still applied after Speed of Light is gone, it's bonus does not have any effect. That is how I look at the ToL and Fear example.

Dread Knight is recalculated after Speed of Light is gone and ToL is recalculated after Fear is gone. In both cases even though there is no game effect it isn't really 'ignored'.

Edit: Oh, and if that Bretonnian with the +WS vow failed a fear test and was reduced to 1 WS (in my way of thinking) their Vow is still there, it just doesn't have a game effect. Same as how I think of the ToL and fear interacting.

[mod]Let's be civil here. Both sides have valid points and comments such as 'some of us have actually thought about it' are rude; please refrain.[/mod]

One minor point: I always saw stat bonuses taken at the beginning of the game (Dreadknight, Monstrous vampy (+1 Wound), and the Bret Virtue) as modifying the base stat line permanently before the game began. Not something to be calculated each time a hex/augment is applied. (So, per the example, Dreadknight comes into the game WS9 and SoL takes him to WS10).

I'll concede that there's some ambiguity here (obviously), and I'll be happy to agree to disagree (as I stated several posts ago). :slapface:

Until then, adieu.

 

[maxtoreador]

[mod]Let's be civil here. Both sides have valid points and comments such as 'some of us have actually thought about it' are rude; please refrain.[/mod]

Sorry Grish, I was trying to paraphrase Arbo's statement.

I still find the fact that we're having this long fervent discussion amusing as this admittedly is a rare occurrence. Also I think we can all agree one would have to be one heck of a competitive pain in the rear to build a vamp list around this concept of WS0.

 

[Grish]

No, but it's not just that one point that we're discussing. It also leads into mahy other effects, such as do Dread Knight Vampire Toads (hit by the scroll) have WS3?

@Arbo: Why do you see modifiers to stats from different sources as being applied differently? I don't understand. It is quite clear that Red Fury moves over when you become a Red Dragon. Does Dread Knight? It's a power as well. Great Fire Dragon "Sets" the WS to 8, just as it "sets" the T to 8. If you say Withering affects T, then Dread Knight affects WS.

 

[Tawg]

I still do not see why people think that if there's mutliple spells/effects in use, use the 'set' ones first, and then apply modifiers. This isn't spelled out anywhere, so I would assume the default position is to just apply things as you go along.

Yes, but as just as well they don't spell out anywhere that that is the default position. That idea is just as much a leap of faith as ours. It just reconciles the effects of Spells and Light + Fear, or other effects, in a more pleasing way for most people.

The reason I infer that fear overrides other effects is my speed of light conundrum. The only way you can get a cohesive answer (ie, their WS can't be 1 and 10) is if you only use one of the effects. Fear overriding the spell is the only thing I can think of that doesn't blow my brain up. By the same token, I would expect any + augment to be overridden by fear-purely because other whys fear + speed of light would result in a unit that is both WS1 and WS10.

Yeah, that is an understandable stance to take (As I said about Grish's idea) since it solves the problem by default, but it's still not clear that is true. I mean, think about the other way around, is there ever a time a spell specifically overrides a special rule without needing to explicitly say it does? I mean obviously the conflict between Regen and Flaming but that is spelled out in the rules. I'm not sure if there are any other examples that could make sense of this.

I am very confused as to why people think Transmutation of Lead will only apply it's -1WS when you need to use your WS, it reduces your WS as soon a it's cast, right then and there in the magic phase you get -1 WS.

Fear reduces your WS from whatever it was to 1. So if in the Magic Phase Transmutation made your WS4 into WS3 if he fails he fear test his current WS will be reduced to 1. Fear does not reduce your WS 1, then reapply all other modifiers, if it did then it would say so.

I'll say it again. sequencing has nothing to do with this as the effects have been resolved at wildly different times. I think people are just too deep into some wacky thought experiment here and need to step back, take a moment and actually think about what they're saying and it will become apprent that it makes no sense.

That doesn't make sense to me because if that's true, why do they say that Hexs/Augs are cumulative? It's not applied as a one shot -1 WS effect that drops off afterwords. I guess Abaro's example regarding Withering + FtS makes like of the only issue I see there; What happens when another effect drops off, resulting in the stat changing back to normal? The buff doesn't stay at T5, it would turn into T7 since that is T+2 (At least in my eyes). Otherwise a buff cast on a unit already under the effect of a hex (Or the other way around) would be drastically less effective in game terms, since it's effect would essentially be thrown away after the other Hex/Aug ended. Seems a bit silly to me.

Also what about the effect of the Curse of Rust? If a unit with LA is effect by that twice (I forgot they didn't have a save ) then the opponent cast Glittering Scales to give them a 5+ save, I fully expect that to be reduce to a 6+. Why would the permanent -2 AS not apply to the Scales save?

I perhaps can see the argument for 'Reducing' a stat being the 'Current' stat, but then even still, the Transformation of Kadon leaves that question open (Since they don't specifically use a different wording, who can say it doesn't increase the stat rather than changing a base stat, or counting as a traditional Hex/Aug that would suffer the Cumulative Penalties?). It's really rather Nit-picky to me, because you're using english in a way that, while understandable and correct, must (Or should) be defined by the game in order to understand it. Since GW doesn't define the term in game functionality it can only be left to player discretion, since it is NOT clear regardless of how firmly either camp believes their stance.

Along the lines of why GW wording can not be taken for a basis of 'How to make the game function' (IE, Reduce may well not mean what you infer), look page 31 BRB. "Note that bonuses and penalties from Hexes, Augments and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristic above 10 or below 1." So now what they do is 'Take' a characteristic above or below it's starting value? I mean, that is just as well as me saying that -3 LD from D&D 'Reduces' the stat (And very well it does, although they didn't use the word because -3 is easy enough to read). Furthermore, I believe the only reason they used 'Reduce' over any other way to say the ability was to avoid the use of any equations such as "A unit effect by fear suffers -(WS-1) to their WS."

 

[arbogast]

@Arbo: Why do you see modifiers to stats from different sources as being applied differently? I don't understand. It is quite clear that Red Fury moves over when you become a Red Dragon. Does Dread Knight? It's a power as well. Great Fire Dragon "Sets" the WS to 8, just as it "sets" the T to 8. If you say Withering affects T, then Dread Knight affects WS.

-Since you addressed me, I'm obliged to answer.

= I view stat changes through non-item, army-specific rules as additions to base stats before the game starts (and permanent). To me, it represents training (DK and VoI) or supernatural resilience/size (VC monstrosity).

Take the +1 Wound example; one doesn't track down from 3 and then, upon losing the 3rd wound say, "but he has +1 wound so he's still alive." I imagine you just count down from 4 from the start of the game until he's dead, right? For me, that kind of logic works the same for any other stat change before the game. (As opposed to items which only give their bonus when used).

But, unlike most of my other views, I can't really find anything to support it in the written rules. It's just how I play my army. I can see the flip side (counting as just another stat modifier), but that just feels wrong to me personally.

The closest I can find is:
1. The Eye of the Gods chart which says they get their bonus stat for the rest of the game (e.g. my lord is T6 now, not +1 T in addition to other modifiers while cumulatively applying them in any given situation).

2. Perhaps more to the point, campaign stat changes to characters. This occurs between games and is permanent (-1WS or whatever). During the game, I don't think "oh yeah, he's -1WS for losing an eyeball," I just have counted him as WS 3 from the get go.

=As for the Dragon example, I don't view those stat changes as permanent since they can be dispelled and are temporary during the game (you can't take away the Dreadknight power or the monstrosity thing). Both the WS of the Dragon and Dreadknight can still be modified, but for me, when all those modifiers/spells end, the Dragon goes back to a Vamp w/WS7 and the DK Vamp goes back to his "base" WS9. (Incidentally, if my DK Vamp turned himself into a Dragon, I'd use WS8 instead of 9 since that's the stats of the Dragon. I would not give him WS8 +2 for the DK power).

(E.g., I'd play Von Horstman's Speculum as giving the Empire Wizard WS9 for a Dreadknight; the latter would not receive WS 3 +2 for the DK power--his training and base stat has already been 'reflected' to the wizard. But the VHS does not give the Wizard the bonus of the weapon the Vamp is using, so the Vamp would get S3+2 for wielding an Ogre Blade).

P.S. I posted a succinct version of figuring this out over at Warseer, but for some reason after my first post, "moderators have to approve" my posts and they haven't...

 

[Grish]

Many, Many, Many things feel wrong in Warhammer.

You have the Flaming Lance from last edition and you charge high elves. They're immune, so why not just use your regular sword? Impossible. You must keep hammering away with an ineffective weapon, even if it means his death.

Or the Chaos Lord that flees off the board after his unit of chaos hounds were destroyed (previous edition). I saw this happen in a game... ridiculous. Empire got first turn, fired some template weapons, wiped otu the dogs, and the lord fled the table. Game over round one.

Warhammer is chock full of stuff that 'doesn't make sense'. I long ago gave up trying to play it that way and just focus on it as a game system.

It is good that you readily admit it's just how you feel that it is correct to play the game; hopefully some astute people on Warseer can lend a hand. Looking forward to your post.

 

[arbogast]

Many, Many, Many things feel wrong in Warhammer.

My favorite; a lone survivor of a 100-man chaos chosen unit is fleeing at the end of the game.

Victory points you get for that = 0! :swear:

 

[Grish]

I actually made a thread on here awhile ago of top things that don't make sense in warhammer... now if only I could find it...

 

[Tawg]

Many, Many, Many things feel wrong in Warhammer.

My favorite; a lone survivor of a 100-man chaos chosen unit is fleeing at the end of the game.

Victory points you get for that = 0! :swear:

... :skull:

"Dead or Fled"

It really doesn't count fleeing troops? Because that sounds absurd to me :grave:

 

[Alark]

Really interesting debate. Its nice to know that since i stopped playing and started again GW are still as vauge as ever.

But out of curiosity, were do both sides stand on a unit which has WS1 on his stats being hexed then failing his fear test. Would he stay at 0 or go up to 1? Because of this logic i agree with the WS0 guys. But im still reading through the BRB so my opinion doesnt count haha.

 

[veelckoo]

... :skull:

"Dead or Fled"

It really doesn't count fleeing troops? Because that sounds absurd to me :grave:

Dead or FLED - not Dead or FLEEING :devil2:
I agree that scoring rules are absurd in this edition.
Pity, because overall I think it is best edition so far.

 

[FirestormXL]

No, but it's not just that one point that we're discussing. It also leads into mahy other effects, such as do Dread Knight Vampire Toads (hit by the scroll) have WS3?

@Arbo: Why do you see modifiers to stats from different sources as being applied differently? I don't understand. It is quite clear that Red Fury moves over when you become a Red Dragon. Does Dread Knight? It's a power as well. Great Fire Dragon "Sets" the WS to 8, just as it "sets" the T to 8. If you say Withering affects T, then Dread Knight affects WS.

I don't see that as questionable at all, is the Toad still a wizard, does he still have frenzy and fear if he had it before? If so, then yes he is a Ws3 toad if he keeps his special abilities.

Really interesting debate. Its nice to know that since i stopped playing and started again GW are still as vauge as ever.

But out of curiosity, were do both sides stand on a unit which has WS1 on his stats being hexed then failing his fear test. Would he stay at 0 or go up to 1? Because of this logic i agree with the WS0 guys. But im still reading through the BRB so my opinion doesnt count haha.

In the event an army causes this to happen incidentally (and it would have to for only a madman would do this on purpose). Then you must take both Generals, then place them on the floor in front of the opposing player. Next both players perform 1 stomp attack at +3 str on the opposing general as hard as possible, and whoever hurts their foot less wins.

If someone does this on purpose only his general is used in the stomping.

 

[arbogast]

On a related note, what are everyone's takes on the following situations:

1. A failed Fear test against Chaos Knights of Nurgle? (WS1, -1WS to hit them in close combat per the FAQ).

2. A WS3 unit is hit with Miasma (-2) to WS1; then hit with Transmutation of Lead (-1WS).

Any problems with reducing WS to 0 in both situations?

Thanks

-Arbo

 

[arbogast]

So, a final example to example.
A vampire character (hero, WS6) has Dread Knight power (+2 WS) and is equipped with the Fencer's Blades.
He is fighting the legendary Harry the Hammer (Fear in undead troops).
On Harry's Turn, his chaos forces blasts the Vampire Character's unit with Mekoth's Mystifying Miasma (-3 WS, minimum of 1).
To help, the Vampire's Lord has used "Speed of Light" Weapon Skill/ Initiattive to 10.
The Vampire's Character's unit then charges Harry and his unit.
In the Combat round, they fail their Fear test.

@Grish:

So I just noticed from the FAQ:
Q: When does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic give that bonus?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat.

= That's kind of annoying given the wording and precedents of nearly every other weapon, but hey, that's how they want to call it.

= Thus, 2 special rules (Failed Fear WS1 and Fencers Blades WS10) come into conflict, you have to roll off per the Most Important Rule (since neither overrides the other as no such clause exists).

= Which means the start of this situation is random! (Woot GW again... )

= What happens after that (applying modifiers or not), is up to the camp you set up in.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

sorry havnt read all posts.
All this talk of reapplying transmution of lead is mad. what clearly happns is this.....

unit is ws4 they have transnution cast on them so are now ws3
unit fails a fear test and is now ws1

there is no reapplying involved. the spell has already changed thier weapon skill then the fear test reduces that to 1.

with regards to SOL is same princeable

unit ws4 has transution on them making them ws3
in their turn they get SOL cast on them making them ws10 (it is not ws9 as the -1 had been applied making them ws3 Sol ups them to 10)
they now fail a fear test and are ws1 . next combat phase they pass the test and are now ws10 again til the spell runs out.

 

[Grish]

Plad you should read all posts before saying 'what clearly happens is this'.

It's not clear. I'm in the camp that it is applied in order, and evaluated from the bottom of the stack to the top, recalculated as needed, but always applied in the same way.

Other's are in other camps, mainly due to the Doom and Darkness FAQ that has been put out, and I have addressed my stance on why I do not believe that affects this argument.

 

[arbogast]

My final two cents (really!):

I'm surprised that there seems to be so much push back against the Fear/ToL combo (turning them to WS0); even GW in some email said it would be "broken" (IIRC and according to someone else in this thread).

Yet, Chaos Nurgle Knights is much simpler and there seems to be wider agreement that this combo does indeed reduce them to WS0 (and Yhetees? or are they just -1 to hit?). How is that not more devastating to have a unit who can just do the same thing on their own?

:grave:

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

Fear reduces your WS from whatever it was to 1. So if in the Magic Phase Transmutation made your WS4 into WS3 if he fails he fear test his current WS will be reduced to 1. Fear does not reduce your WS 1, then reapply all other modifiers, if it did then it would say so.

=Ok, so what happens after the unit recovers from Fear; what does their WS go back to?

= If it's WS3, then you're still applying the effects of ToL.

= If it's WS4, then you're ignoring the spell duration of ToL.

= Your stance?

when they recover from fear they are still ws3 ubtil the spell ends.
The spell reduces their ws as soon as it hits them. fear then takes them down to ws1. next combat they pass fear and so are back to ws3 until the spell ends. I really cant see it the other way. you resolve spells right away so why are you ws0 crowd resolving the spell after the fear test .Its resolved right away then the fear test drops it to one

 

[maxtoreador]

when they recover from fear they are still ws3 ubtil the spell ends.
The spell reduces their ws as soon as it hits them. fear then takes them down to ws1. next combat they pass fear and so are back to ws3 until the spell ends. I really cant see it the other way. you resolve spells right away so why are you ws0 crowd resolving the spell after the fear test .Its resolved right away then the fear test drops it to one

Going to reduce this to about as simple as I can get the situation and change the numbers around a bit to break this away from thinking about fear and ToL.

Stat=4

Unit A is hit by a spell that reduces Stat by 3 in the magic phase.
During that combat phase a special rule modifies Stat to set value of 8. What is the value of Stat when it is used in the combat phase and why?

 

[Grish]

I think we should lock this thread and continue in only the Sequencing thread since this is the main argument.

I don't think WS0 is overpowered. I don't believe it happens, but if it were possible, it would involve casting a spell on a specific unit, and then hoping they fail their fear test (unlikely). Not reliable, and it only happens for a round of combat. There's many more broken spells (Purple Sun, Dwellers) right out of the box without any need for the reliance on something very chancy.

Send me a Private message if there's something to add to this thread that should be in here and not in sequencing. For now, the issue is a sequencing issue and there's no point discussing it here. If there's a strong enough reason to add something else to this thread I'll reopen it.

For now...

[mod]Thread locked.[/mod]

Continue discussion here:
Sequencing