First Game of AOS

[Wolf Child]

Right,I didn't get on too well with 9th so lets give AOS a go now they have points!
I love the artwork and backstory in the new Death battletome 'Flesh Eater Courts' so I'm off to a good start

My first game will be 1000 points against ogres using the list below,how do you reckon it will fare?


Abhorrent Ghoul King on Terrorghiest
10 Crypt Ghouls
10 crypt Ghouls
1 crypt Ghoul Courtier
3 Crypt Horrors
1 Vargulf Courtier

 

[Unas the slayer]

A friend of mine got Flesh Eater Courts and he's very satisfied with it.
I still have to read it, but they have strong synergies and the new battletome gives also really nice battallions.

A Ghoul King on terrorgheis not only is a strong support for your ghouls, but it's a force by itself.

Now, your opponent...

By "Ogors" you mean Gutbusters, right?

The units in the old battlescrolls of Ogre Kingdom were not a problem, especially with a terrorgheist facing fat guys with bravery 6-7. They are now improved, but I don't know really how much: the owner of our gaming shop plays Ogre Kingdom, but actually he's focused on Beastclaw Riders...

 

[Wolf Child]

Hi Unas, yeah I'm definitely pleased with the book also and I'm trying to take in all the brilliant synergies myself.(I only got the book a couple of days ago) I love the way your Vargulf and Ghast can summon stuff for a start... and I agree the Ghoul King and Terrorghiest look formidable.
I'm looking forward to some combat with them.(I'll probably get them blown up in the the first turn now haha)
My opponent will be using Beast Claw Riders,couldn't remember the name till you said..

 

[Unas the slayer]

My opponent will be using Beast Claw Riders,couldn't remember the name till you said..

Ouch, bad news.
The great danger is the frostlord on stonehorn, 13 wounds, save 3+, halves all wounds/mortal wounds you deal to hit, can run and charge and deals massive damage.
If your opponent is nasty, he'll use the beastclaw raiders allegiance and then giving it the Pelt of charngar (IIRC... roll a die in the hero phase, on a 4+ heal d3 wounds, otherwise heal 1 wound ). At 1000 points it's half of the army, but can win by itself.

Remember that by its rules, it can run and MUST charge a unit within 12" so you need to have chaff to distract it and hopefully get close for combined charges.

 

[Wolf Child]

Oh God,that sounds like a nightmare,but we are playing at 1000 points,please tell me you thought we playing 2000 points haha

 

[Unas the slayer]

Sadly not, it costs more than 400 and less than 500, and I faced it at 1000. I was beated hard.

I successfully dealt with it at 1500, with TK / VC list, using Settra, 6 spirit hosts and a liche priest (a necromancer would be the same), to give my hosts mystic shield and bring them at save 3+ (making useless the rend -1/-2 of the frostlord), while rolling 36 dices with mortal wounds every 5+. In the meantime my skeleton horsemen were running for objective, to distract the rest of enemy's army (that can field things as thundertusks and stonehorns as battleline!).

I'm not enough competent with flesh eater courts to give you some really effective suggestion, I'm sorry.

 

[Wolf Child]

I'm not enough competent with flesh eater courts to give you some really effective suggestion, I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]

No problems Unas,you have given me a good heads up about what to expect,so thank you.
I was thinking how tough and hard hitting some of the new VC stuff was.... then I started to wonder what the new Bloodthirtster or the Treeman Ancient would be like.Ah well there were ways to deal with all kinds of horrors in 8th so hopefully it will be the same in AOS.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I just faced a 1000 point list consisting of:

Frostlord on Stonehorn
Thundertusk Beastrider
and a unit of 2 Mournfangs

Thundertusk has an 18" shot that inflicts a flat SIX mortal wounds while at full strength (and good luck getting into combat and hurting it). And the Frostlord can dish out upwards of 50 wounds on the charge but has a decent save and halves all incoming damage.

That's just ridiculous. I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with something that can beat it at 1000 points. Maybe a unit of 4 Morghasts? Harbingers get 5 attacks, -1 Rend, and 2 dmg. Archai get 3 attacks, -2 rend, 3 dmg.

Assuming we get the charge, statistical rolls play out like this:

Archai: 12 attacks hitting on 3+ results in 8 hits. 8 hits wounding on 3+ results in 5 wounds. Rend makes the save 5+, so 3 should get through. That becomes 9 damage and he halves it to 5. That drops him ONE wound category.

Harbingers: 20 attacks hitting on 3+ results in 13 hits. 13 hits wounding on 3+ results in 8 wounds. Rend makes the save 4+, so 4 should get through. That becomes 8 damage and he halves it to 4. That drops him ONE wound category.

The return attacks from the Frostlord, assuming we get lucky and can inflict 1 or 2 more wound to get him into the next category:
Frost Spear: 3 wounds, -1 rend, 2 get through and become 6 dmg.
Punch & Kick: 2 wounds, no rend, 1 gets through for 1 dmg.
Horns: 2 wounds, -2 rend, 2 probably get through for 6 dmg.
Hooves: 2 wounds, -1 rend, 2 probably get through for 4 dmg.

Total of 17 wounds inflicted. If the General was in range to help with the Deathless Minions roll, he'll already be dead from the Thundertusk shooting, but that might save 6, resulting in 11 wounds and one but probably 2 dead Morghasts. Then he'll be attacking first and will finish them off before you can strike. But even if you could attack first, it would only inflict another 2 wounds after the halving.

I'm thinking Mournguls might be the way to go. They ignore rend, so will still have a 3+ save vs everything, and a 4+ save vs mortal wounds. It will also confer a -1 to hit on the enemy models.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Yeah, the combo of thundertusk and stonehorn is terrifying. Plus, with the destruction additional movement, they are able to move at their pleasure and dictate the charge whenever they want.

I was, indeed, thinking to a way to deal with this couple of behemoths at 1000 pts, with some reliable chance of success. It's not a 100% VC army, bt after all I'm a TK player.

we are facing a double threat: the scary ranged attack of the tusk and the killing charge of the stonehorn; our only starting advantage, is that we'll have more units than the beastclaw Allegiance, so we can place our key units in a safe position from the thundertusk.

one of the strong abilities of the Mourngul is the healing for each Killing, and it won't exploit it against such an army, but that save 3+ and no rend is sweet, it's our must have against the frostlord general, so we'll pick it.

Mourngul
Necromancer

(we need to bring the 'gul to save 2+. So, half of the army is here)

then, we need to kill the Thundertusk before he can deal those mortal wounds.
the good thing is that it cannot be screened by other units with so few points, so we can work around it, and i think TK can give us the answer.

3 scorpions can pop at 6" from the tusk and charge. They'll deliver 9 attacks, all with rend -1/-2 and each dealing 3 or d3 wounds. Even if they don't manage to kill the beast, surely they'll take it down to a pityful level. 4 scorpions would be even better, but let's say 3 of them.

we still have 240 pts to spend and we also need battlelines

you can field a couple of zombie battlelines and then you'll still have 120 pts, or you can pick 2 units of black knights. Not exceptionals, but at least those mournfangs won't be the only one able to run for objectives.

so, at 1000 pts:

Mourngul
Necromancer
3 scorpions
2 x 5 black knights


Variations are possible, as

Mourngul
Necromancer
4 scorpions
2 x 10 skeletons

but the core idea remains the same: kill the thundertusks with scorpions before it can shoot, let your buffed mourngul deal with the stonehorn

 

[Alabaster427]

I was thinking:

Mourngul
Screaming Skull Catapult
2 scorpions
2x5 skeleton chariots (core tax)
Should be 960 and you can still take a command trait for the mourngul

 

[Infernal Skull]

There needs to be a "leader" in the army. Maybe Heinrich? He has that 2+ "look out sir" rule, no command trait, and can cast 2 spells (one of which is healing) and/ or make a Mourngul the General (it doesn't have to be a hero or leader) and give him the trait to become a wizard. Then he can buff himself with Arcane Shield?

Necropolis Knights are a good option too. 160 points for 3. They get 3 attacks from the mount that do D3 wounds each and have the potential for a mortal wound. They resurrect one model in the hero phase, and the spell can be cast to return one model to the unit.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Also... Where to buy Tomb Scorpions?

 

[Unas the slayer]

Also... Where to buy Tomb Scorpions?

eh, with all Tomb Kings discontinued, the best place is probably Ebay. Not exactly cheap.
The good part is that when you find a unbuilt scorpion (still possible), it's easy enough to build 2 models out of it (one that emerges out from the sand and the other model with just the tail. Add some scenery to the base and you'll be fine)
EXAMPLE:

another option is to look for alternative minis. afaik Reaper Giant Scorpions are still available

 

[Sception]

Black Knights are only battleline for deathrattle allegiance, so you can't use them as battleline if your army includes a necromancer, or a mourngul, or tomb scorpions.

If you just want something fast that can run for objectives, and are unconcerned with fighting ability, you can take tomb kings skeleton horsemen instead. Or if you want something that's a bit more combat capable (not much, but a bit), then you can take skeleton chariots.


If facing something like this, I'd be tempted to try a cheesed out unit of necropolis knights. Maybe somehting like:

Settra
2x herald
2x10 zombies
6 necropolis knights


One of your heralds will eat 4 wounds, and Settra 1 to 2 more, off the thundertusk before you get to charge, but the necropolis knights will handily slaughter the thundertusk in a round. Counterattack from the frostlord and mournfangs should drop 3 to 4 necroknights, but unless they get a lucky double turn, you'll heal all or most of that up in your next hero phase between the heralds and the knights' own banner, and can start winning through attrition/recursion, as is the undead way, with necroknights whittling down the frostlord while settra charges in to cut down mournfangs.


Or, for a more offensive alternative, you could try:

Settra
Necromancer
2x10 zombies
corpse cart
6 necroknights.

You lose 2/3 of the necroknights recursion, but significantly increase their damage output. You could kill the frostlord in a single turn with this set up, but without the heralds it's even more essential to get to the thundertusk first to keep settra up, and you didn't need the help to down the tusk before, so I prefer the above, tankier approach.



The main downside is that the list is an obvious cheesefest, with a faction-leading special character taken in a small game, a legacy one from the old game who's long dead in current fluff at that. And it's an aesthetically displeasing list as well, mixing tomb kings and zombies, taking settra without chariots, relying on one of the silliest looking undead units GW ever put out, etc.

The ogres list, on the other hand, is thematically and aesthetically pleasing, all chosen from a single sublist. It's super powerful at this points value, but your opponent didn't have to be intentionally cheesing out to get there. Honestly, I have a hard time seeing how you'd end up with anything else for a 1000 point beastclaw list.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Black Knights are only battleline for deathrattle allegiance, so you can't use them as battleline if your army includes a necromancer, or a mourngul, or tomb scorpions.

Are you sure about it?
Maybe I'm wrong, but IIRC by faq you can field an allegiance and also models that don't belong to that Allegiance... it's just that those models don't get any bonus.

 

[Sception]

Yes, I'm sure. What the FAQ is saying is that you can take a deathrattle allegiance army to get battleline black knights, and still take the allegiance benefits from death. Basically you can pick one allegiance for battleline and another for items & command benefits, but your army still has to meet all the allegiance requirements of any allegiance you use. So if you want battle line black knights, every unit in your army needs the deathrattle keyword.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Good to know, tnx for the clarification.
Then I would use a different battleline to field Mourngul and Scorpions

 

[Sception]

Yup. If you're looking for a black knight substitute in a non-deathrattle list, your best bets are tomb king skeleton horsemen (weaker than black knights, but 20 points cheaper) and tomb king skeleton chariots (hit harder on the charge, and considerably more durable, but 20 points more expensive per batch). Both are battleline by default.

Conversion-wise, if you don't have access to the old models, the horsemen can be reasonably converted out of hexwraith steeds and regular skeleton warriors by clipping apart the skeleton's legs at the joints and reposing them into a riding posture.

Chariots are a bit more of a hassle. Skeleton warriors are fine for riders, and skeletal horses can be found third party, then it's just a matter of finding a chariot chassis that works for you. Lot of work and bother for a unit that's not exactly a heavy hitter, though. Honestly, I'd try to find the old tomb kings models on ebay or something.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Yup. If you're looking for a black knight substitute in a non-deathrattle list, your best bets are tomb king skeleton horsemen (weaker than black knights, but 20 points cheaper) and tomb king skeleton chariots (hit harder on the charge, and considerably more durable, but 20 points more expensive per batch). Both are battleline by default.

Conversion-wise, if you don't have access to the old models, the horsemen can be reasonably converted out of hexwraith steeds and regular skeleton warriors by clipping apart the skeleton's legs at the joints and reposing them into a riding posture.

Chariots are a bit more of a hassle. Skeleton warriors are fine for riders, and skeletal horses can be found third party, then it's just a matter of finding a chariot chassis that works for you. Lot of work and bother for a unit that's not exactly a heavy hitter, though. Honestly, I'd try to find the old tomb kings models on ebay or something.

@Malisteen, you should know that I've got no problems in fielding all TK units I'd need, but in this forum i wanted to keep TK to the minimum required, and in my idea at 1000 pts the only necessary TK unit is scorpions, because they fill a niche in which VC don't have nothing, and they are perfect to deal with the thundertusk when it's still far from my army.

Mourngul
Necromancer
4 scorpions
2 x 10 skeletons

or

Mourngul
2 x Necromancer
3 scorpions
2 x 10 zombies

or

Mourngul
1 x Necromancer
3 scorpions
1 x 5 black knight
2 x 10 zombies

or

Mourngul
Necromancer
3 scorpions
1 x Banshee
2 x 10 skeletons


...you get the idea.

 

[Alabaster427]

The only reason I include the Catapult is because it does -2 bravery, even if it fails to hit or wound, which buffs the mourngul's ability.

 

[Unas the slayer]

The only reason I include the Catapult is because it does -2 bravery, even if it fails to hit or wound, which buffs the mourngul's ability.

Actually, that's a good idea. The list could be something like this:

Mourngul
1 x Necromancer
3 scorpions
1 x Skullapult
2 x 10 zombies

Not only it's a good counter to that 1000 pts list of Beastclaw, but it's also a strong all-comers list.

The mourngul, backed up by the necromancer and the SSC, is an immortal killer beast.
the SSC (even if unreliable) can always threaten long range and so could kill something as warmachine crew, even if screened by infantry and thus unreacheable by the scorpions
the zombies are our battleline tax but can at least act as protective screen for the necromancer
the scorpions can assassinate key units / heroes, or you can field them as separate units and use their pop ability to conquer objectives.

 

[Wolf Child]

Hmm,it sounds my Abhorrent Ghoul King and his gang are going to get their arse's handed to them then.
I also realize how little I know about AOS so far.I like the idea of the scorpions but I don't want to blend TK and VC at the moment..in 8th thundertusks and so on were easy to deal with,even a single cairn wraith could kill one.I have a lot to learn but I'm looking forward to it

 

[Unas the slayer]

I like the idea of the scorpions but I don't want to blend TK and VC at the moment..

Yeah, i can sympathize with the sentiment.
A nice way to blend the two armies, is if you use something that themathically works with both of them. For example, Arkhan the Black can easily be the general of a combined force.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I've been thinking about Nagash– Can't get him in at a flat 1000 points, but in my case we're using the old General's Compendium map campaign that allowed for supporting armies that can bump you a few hundred points.

Nagash has the potential to go toe-to-toe with a Frostlord, and if he can survive even a couple rounds of combat, he could outright SLAY the Frostlord with the Hand of Dust spell.

But even Nagash, if EVERY one of his attacks gets through and does maximum damage, that's 30 wounds, which will be halved to 15, and that's BARELY enough to kill the Frostlord. The Frostlord, on the other hand, can dish out 51 wounds, +6 when he charges. If even less than a third of them get through, Nagash is dead.

 

[Sception]

Nagash is improperly pointed for matched play, that's not news. Even so, dealing even a third of max damage against nagash is highly unlikely, even with +1 to hit and wound from command traits and items (he is a generic hero, after all), given that he's got relatively low rend for a big monster, while Nagash starts with a 3+ save, which he can readily boost with mystic shield to a 2+ save, re-rolling ones.

Nagash, on the other hand, while he finds the stonehorn's hide a bit chewy, has little trouble with the frostlord's 4+ save, which is unlikely to be augmented due to Nagash's ability to shut down enemy spellcasting like little else can.

And the frostlord really shouldn't ever be getting the charge, not with Nagash's flight and access to cheap undead melee screens.


So... yeah. The stonelord is a potent monster, and a solid choice for his points cost where Nagash really isn't, but even so... I mean, even if the stonelord somehow gets the charge:

Spoiler

1.45 mortal wounds w charge
1.54 wounds w spear
0.05 wounds w kicks
3.47 wounds w horns
0.09 wounds w hooves

*all assuming +1 to hit and wound from destruction command trait and item, as well as deathless minions, mystic shield, and command ability on Nagash

total of about 7 wounds. Nagash attacks back and

2.26 wounds w staff
5.18 wounds w sword
1.16 mortal wounds w spirits
0.29 wounds w spirits

halved and rounded up to 1 mortal wound plus 4 regular wounds.

Then, barring a double turn, nagash has a 36% chance of winning outright w dust, a decent chance of healing d3 wounds by soul stealing some mournfangs, almost certsinly puts his shield back up, and probably puts another mortal wound on the frostlord w arcane bolt.

Beastclaw raiders have no native casters, so unless the opponent is poaching they don't even get to try to unbind, and even if they are they still have to contend w +2 to cast on nagash even in his weakened state. back up to +3 if he heals any wounds w soul stealer.

but even assuming he didn't, that's another 5 wounds in melee, plus the one from arcane bolt, plus another 1on average from gaze, so by the time the frostlord is making his second swing he's down, on average, 12 wounds, assuming he's not dead outright, barely holding on, with only two horn attacks left, which were the only attacks that were making a meaningful impact through morikhane and mystic shield. its badically over.

Yes, there's enough dice involved that it could go the other way, but once you take spells, command abilities, and allegiance abilities into account, on average the frostlord only outfights Nagash if the ogre player both somehow manages to get the charge and gets a lucky double turn, and even then he needs to roll above average (or, more accurately, Nagash needs to roll below average on his saves), to kill him. Average rolling leaves a critically injured nagash attempting a last ditch hand of dust before making a 9 inch flying withdrawl behing some melee screen.

Of course, it's not just stonelord against Nagash. throw the thundertusk and mournfang unit you also get for Nagash's points and it won't look so nice for the big guy.

But again, I'm not trying to defend his points cost. I'm just saying that a frostlord does not at all outfight him one on one, not without some rather wonky rolling.