Game System - Warhammer: The Old World

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Edit: That being said, isn't the Red Duke active at this time?
The Red Duke was turned in 1449 and his return is around 1900. The Old World takes place around 2270-2300 IC. So while he could still be around, I wouldn't say he's really super active. But let me know if I'm wrong on any of that.
 
Yeah that's what got me confused too. Then I realized:

All of the "supported" factions are ones that were outright squatted or squatted/disseminated amongst other armies and are outright unplayable in AoS

Not really, though? Warriors of chaos is still a big AoS faction that has a bunch of overlap with the oldhammer faction. And Dark Elves are basically unplayable in AoS. A couple of their units exist in one AoS faction, and a couple in another, but 'Dark Elves' in general aren't any more playable in AoS than 'Orcs & Goblins' or 'Empire' are. Heck, Beastmen are practically the same army with the same units and the same models in AoS and Oldhammer.

Edit: That being said, isn't the Red Duke active at this time?

Nope. He had already returned from the dead, reached the end of his second campaign, and fled into the wilderness upon discovering that he had slain his own descendant in his madness, all before the start of the Von Carstein wars. He's out there somewhere, haunting the forests of the old world like a wild animal, but barring retcons he doesn't properly appear again until the End Times.

If the Old World timeline progresses forward instead of staying locked in place, then we'll get to the False Grail event and the collapse of Mousillon, which features an incursion of nurgle daemons and the city being overrun by undead after the nurgle incursion passes, so could be used as an excuse to reintroduce both chaos daemons and vamp counts as a faction.

We're explicitly leading up to the Seige of Praag, which is pretty much the opposite of chaos 'at an ebb', so I'd expect chaos daemons proper to be back by that point. Maliketh also launched a major invasion into Ulthuan right before the Great Chaos War, so there's a contemporary reason to bring back dark elves as well.


Also, I was wrong about the high elves, they're present in the old world at this time, Having signed a major trade deal with Marienburg and even established an enclave in the city. They shouldn't really have armies marching around the old world, so they easily could have been left out, but they're not /not/ around.


What I would have loved to see in the Old World is a focus on specific narrative campaigns instead of a set period of time. Like initial Old World release is 'Old World: the Great Chaos War', and it focuses exclusively on the factions involved in that war with extended narrative campaign rules. Then those armies are set aside and we get 'Old World: The Vampire Wars' or 'Old World: Age of Vengeance' or 'Old World: the False Grail' or 'Old World: Wars of Sand and Snow, and so on, each book taking a close look at some particular period of old world history but with no particular commitment to stay in the same time period or progressing in any particular chronological order from one release to another.

These would be highly focused narrative campaign books, each with like 2 to 4 specific armies or army variants. All would use the same core rules, so you could take your evil Brettonian army of Duke Maldred from the False Grail book and play it in a pick up game against somebody else's Dark Elf raiding fleet from the Age of Vengeance book, with periodic pdf updates making points and balance adjustments to past armies to keep them up to date with whatever the newest release.

That kind of structure would still start more or less the same as we're seeing now, with pdf 'tide you over' rules for old factions with no particular commitment to support them fully in the near term, but then instead of starting at a point when nothing in particular was happening and slowly building up to a major event they would just dive into an exciting major event like the Seige of Praag right away with a Narrative Campaign book and detailed rules for just the 2-4 specific factions present for that battle and an extended 'made to order' run of just those factions old models plus new models for the specific named heroes leading those factions in that event. Let that be the Old World for 6 months or even a year, then the next Old World release jumps to some other exciting major event with detailed rules, made to order releases, and a couple new models for 2 to 4 other specific factions, along with a 'balance' update released online for those armies not involved in the new narrative book.


...

But whatever. They'll do what they'll do.
 
So having thought on it, I realized this:

The Old World is done by the Specialist Games team. And ALL of those games have had incredibly good narrative fluff in the books (I've legit bought every Necromunda book not just because I wanted to be the gamemaster for Necromunda campaigns at my FLGS, but because the fluff is just that good).

If they do what they're doing with Necromunda, Titanicus and Horus Heresy (the Siege of Cthonia campaign book has been outright called a "worthy successor to the Black Books"), I'm not worried at all, fluff-wise. My only worry is the balance of the PDF armies.
 
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So here's a question. While the Vampire Counts army got split up extremely with the changeover to AoS, I don't think any unit from the VC list is gone completely that they'd need to bring back (barring the Finecast characters)? Because none of the updated sculpts have anything really tying the models to AoS proper now that I think on it.

In fact, one unit is actually easier to get now. Specifically, Cairn Wraiths (the unit not the single) due to the Nighthaunt Grimghast Reapers existing 🤣
 
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ARE YOU READY?

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I'm actually big salty aboit this. Not only did they not update the TK skeletons & skeleton horses - models that were embarrassing when the game died over a decade ago - they didn't even try to mitigate the suffering by including any of the still halfway decent 8e plastics in this box, just sprue after sprue after sprue of trash.

Worst possible foot forward. I hate it.
 
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And even without considering the models. Game has a huge risk of being dead on release.

See HH and the recent Legion Imperialis. Everything out of stock right after release and who know for how long (if they restock at all)
 
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big announcement for the initial release wave:


Includes army box contents (tk box leak was sadly accurate), main rulebook, large good & evil faction compilations, & more focused books expanding on the bretts & tks specifically (not clear if those factions also need the big good/evil books to be played respectively). legacy oldhammer factions will get pdf rules sometime after tow's release.

surprisingly and positively the old world rulebooks will get both physical and epub format releases. I'm quite happy about that.

we also see the remaining new model releases for tk, at least for release:

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Nekaph, Settra's herald, probs in resin. imo pretty cool, but my loyalties are with Arkhan.

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generic herald bsb. cool enough, but also probably in resin, and don't really trust that big bsb in resin. Personally, I'll stick to my conversion of one of the plastic sphynx crew with the big sphynx banner.

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Tomb Swarm. I can't tell of these are plastic or resin. Honestly I do think they're a step up from the old swarms, but were it up to me the swarms would be pretty low on the priority list of tk stuff to revise, so like the dragon I don't hate these but do find them a bit baffling.

all in all, the actual tk releases are a bit disappointing to me (a lot disappointing in the army box's case), but digital format book releases is such positive news (ie, people will be able to get the rulebooks on release and start playing even if the physical books suffer from the usual shipping issues and delays) that overall I'm pretty happy anyway.
 
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preorder's this coming saturday. list of items (but not prices) here:


Looks like the dragon won't be available outside of the big box, at least not at first. For my own shopping list, I'll try to order a box or two each of the tomb guard & necroknights, epub versions of the books, and tk + generic reference cards.

once everything arrives, that's when I sit down to try to start figuring out the basing situation. Just how hard will it be to base for both AoS and Old World? The answer to that will determine whether I revive my tk aos battletome update project.

There's some flexibility as I can arbitrarily reassign aos base sizes, but if it looks to be too much of a hassle I'll abandon the homebrew project and just rebase my kings for old world.
 
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preorder's this coming saturday. list of items (but not prices) here:


Looks like the dragon won't be available outside of the big box, at least not at first. For my own shopping list, I'll try to order a box or two each of the tomb guard & necroknights, epub versions of the books, and tk + generic reference cards.

once everything arrives, that's when I sit down to try to start figuring out the basing situation. Just how hard will it be to base for both AoS and Old World? The answer to that will determine whether I revive my tk aos battletome update project.

There's some flexibility as I can arbitrarily reassign aos base sizes, but if it looks to be too much of a hassle I'll abandon the homebrew project and just rebase my kings for old world.
I have prices (USD)

THE OLD WORLD
Rulebook - $70
Ravening Hordes - $50
Forces of Fantasy - $50
Modular Movement Trays - $40

Kingdom of Bretonnia
Kingdom of Bretonnia Army - $255
Battle Standard on Royal Pegasus - $65
Pegasus Knights - $60
Arcane Journal: Kingdom of Bretonnia - $27

Tomb Kings of Khemri
Tomb Kings of Khemri Army - $290
Tomb Guard - $80
Sepuchral Stalkers - $60
Necrosphinx - $75
Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings- $27

BLACK LIBRARY
Lords of the Lance (HB) - $35
 
Ooh, the ushabti sculpts are old (boo), BUT they're both in metal (yay)! Iirc the Bowshabti at least were always in finecast/resin, which is why I've never been able to find aftermarket ones that are intact. price depending, I might pick up a couple of bowshabti boxes, too.

I can't believe they have the gall to charge /more/ for the tomb kings box with that selection of terrible old models. oh, well. :p
 
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So, Vampire Counts will, eventually, be getting some sort of PDF legacy rules for the Old World, but at least at this time there's no intent to officially support them as one of the primary faction, so no new model releases, no 'Arcane Journel' with additional lore, rules, and variant lists, etc.

Officially it's because the Vamp Counts aren't active at this point in the timeline, but that's only really true for the Von Carsteins specifically. It seems more likely that the actual reasoning is somebody at GW decided they wanted to minimize crossover kits between AoS and TOW... though even that might not be true as there's still huge overlap between AoS slaves to darkness and TOW Chaos Warriors, to say nothing of the beastmen.

Regardless, GW setting the Vamp Counts aside in TOW is, imo an open invitation for fan communities to pick them back up, so who's interested in working on a homebrew Arcane Tome for the Vampire Counts? Obviously work on rules will have to wait until we actually have access to the official legacy pdfs, but work on lore, art, formatting, and so on can start pretty much from the moment the official Arcane Tomes for Tomb Kings and Brettonians, about two weeks from now.
 
I managed to grab the Order book and the Hordes book as well as the Bretonnian and Tomb King books. But, the actual main rules were sold out before I got there. Not like I'm in a big rush to go out and play anyway, it's mostly just to read everything over for me.
 
I ordered a box each of tomb guard, bowshabti, and stalkers/necroknights, as well as all the cards & such. Missed out on the liche priest, mostly because I didn't realize it was metal when placing my order & didn't want to buy it in resin. Oh well, I'll get it when it comes back into stock, along with another box of bowshabti. I might pick up physical copies of the books from the local store if they end up with spares (unlikely), but otherwise I'm happy to go with epub copies for now.

The resin(?) tomb king, herald, nekaph, new tomb swarms have yet to go up, and aren't on preorder for next week, so I'm not sure when they'll be available. Hopefully when they do go up the Bone Dragon will also be made available separate from the big box. We also haven't seen a separate release for skeletons, skeleton cav, or chariots yet. I don't want any old skeletons, but I might get a box of chariots to put grave guard and/or heroes on.
 
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Hey all

It seems pretty dead (hah) here, despite the Old World being just around the corner. How're you all feeling for the new game?

We've been able to see most of the rules, with the only thing not out being the rules for our faction.

Better than 8th? Better than AoS? No good?
 
From the battle report I gathered that it's better than 8 as they have removed some of the more glaring changes that didn't go over well. It really seems to be lifting a lot from 6e.

Better than AoS? It's totally different. I like AoS better but that's because I don't really like rank and flank, I prefer more freeform and don't like looking up to hit on a chart.

From what we've seen so far it looks like a great version of WHFB. If that's what you liked then there's essentially 9e.

I'm taking a wild guess that it won't necessarily be perfectly balanced especially the pdf armies but that's just because that's pretty much what GW always does.
 
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I was mostly joking with the AoS comparison, though I guess for me it is somewhat valid.
I started WFB at the end of 8th and begrudgingly switched to AoS, which I enjoy but nowhere near as much as I did fantasy.
I now have an (almost) fully painted AoS army but I'm looking forward to putting it to rest for a bit while I come back to the old world.

I'm starting from scratch, I was very lucky in that half a year ago I secured a bunch of the older skeleton kits (the ones before the SBGL ones) as well as a few of the classic vampire characters in metal.
As for the legacy rules, I'm not too worried about the army being legacy. Everything that I've heard from people who've already seen the rules points to the legacy armies being as fleshed-out as the core factions. There should be no difference between a legacy army and a core faction without an arcane journal which for me sounds perfect.

I quite like this "new edition". The movement looks cleaner and less janky, cannons seem less of a problem. No step-up is interesting but combined with giving ground it seems combats are a bit more grindy which I like. I enjoy the ap introduction and the changes in initiative. If there's one thing that I don't like it's the changes in magic - it feels like it has less depth to it and I was a fan of the previous magic minigame.

I'm excited to see the rules for vampires in our rules pack. Hopefully they are as brutal as Chaos Lords which look to be devastating currently.
 
TBH, the lack of many old main factions (and the will to not support them at all in the future) is a hard blow to my hype
Yeah, I get you, it's how I felt the day the article came out.

Since then though I've heard that the legacy army rules are supposed to be as good as the core factions' (minus the eventual arcane journals) which has put my worries to rest.
It's still not the same as being fully supported and I agree, the hype for legacy factions has definitely dropped, but it won't stop me from getting my vampires on the board.


I think if the community is as active as it was in 8th then the experience of engaging with the game will be much the same.
 
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It’s Old World release day, and despite the weather related shipping delays accross most of North America, my order did make it to the store on time. Plastic tomb guard, necrosnakes, 3 metal bowshabti, and misc spell & item cards. No books, I opted to go epub for those. I did miss out on the liche priest - I didn’t realize until it sold out that it was in metal rather than resin. I’ll be waiting to pick up that and another 3 bowshabti when they come back in stock. And prob the Bone Dragon, if it’s ever sold separately from the big box.

Sadly, I cant start assembly yet, as I’m still waiting for the 3rd party bases & unit trays I ordered. But I can start tinkering with lists, and I can answer any questions people might have about the rules - I've got digital copies of all the books except for the Brettonian Arcane Journal.
 
I can answer one question I've had for a while - are the old world bases new bases that actually fit the stated official base sizes, or are they old bases that sometimes strayed a fair bit from them. As far as the models I ordered are concerned, they're all the old bases. It's not too big a deal for the 25mm and 40mm squares, which are pretty close to the sated size (slighly small, but by less than a millimeter), but it is a big deal for the chariot, which is about the right length, but is significantly narrower than its supposed 50mm width at only about 47.5mm wide. That's off by enough that you can just look at it and tell it's not the supposed 1x2 proportions. It's narrow enough that a unit of chariots 4 wide mounted on the first party bases will be fully 1cm narrower than the unit is supposed to be.

That's not ~too~ big a deal for playing the game, I doubt official events will care one way or the other, but it will make a difference to unit trays. If you're making your own you'll want to rank the unit up and physically measure its dimensions if you want the tray to sit flush rather than just multiplying out the supposed official size, especially if the unit is on 25x50mm cavalry or 50x100 mm chariot bases, which are the old bases that strayed furthest from their official dimensions. If you're ordering a 3rd party unit tray for models using first party bases, you'll have to make sure the producer takes the discrepancy into account or again the tray won't sit flush to the unit when they're ranked up. Most importantly, if you use third party bases that match the official base sizes then they may not fit at all into a unit tray sized for first party bases. Again, this is especially the case for 25mm x 50mm cavalry and 50mm x 100mm chariot bases.

Do measure for yourself, though. While I can directly vouch for the chariot bases, I haven't purchased any old world models on 25mm x 50mm bases yet, so it's possible, though unlikely, that they don't have this issue.
 
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Unfortunately the delay has kept my books from me. I also noticed I couldn't order the new Bretonnian foot knight or damsel but UK could. I wonder if/when they release that here and when they restock the core rulebook. Really frustrating that GW creates this much hype and then can't even make sure we can buy the things they sell.
 
I think I've settled on a 1k starter list for tomb kings, sticking to the generic ravening hordes list for now, and focusing on classic, iconic, faction-defining units.

Tomb Prince, Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel

Tomb Herald, Shield, BSB

Mortuary Priest, Level 2, Necromancy

32 Skeleton Warriors with Spears, Shields, light armor, Nehekharan Phalanx, full command, all characters go here making a big 7x5 block.

15 Skeleton Skirmishers with bows & ambush. prob won't use ambush often, but it's a neat option to have.

Casket of Souls

Screaming Smull Catapult (no skulls of the foe, sadly. too many points in rare with the casket at 1k)

- Either -

3 Skeleton Chariots with full command

- Or -

3 Ushabti with either warscythes or greatbows, but no command

Total comes to exactly 1,000 points regardless of chariots vs. Ushabti. I'm not really committed to one or the other there, as both units are pretty iconic. The chariots maybe more so, but the ushabti are better models. I can replace the chariot drivers with 7e VC skittles, but am kind of stuck on the horses, since GW store legality is a concern.

I don't really need to choose between chariots & ushabti (or between bowshabti & bladeshabti). I'll assemble & paint all 3 options & try them each out. 1k is just a target on the way to 2k & beyond, not a stopping point.

Now I just need my bases & unit trays from coveted forge to arrive so I can start rebasing.
 
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