How do you feel so far about the new Empire book?

[Johnny-Crass]

Correction. Cannon is toughness 7 against shooting. Against CC it is toughness 3 and they explain why a warmachine has as high of toughness as it does.

Also comparing a sphinx and a Stank works well IMO. Both are tough unbreakable tarpits used to grind down blocks. Also notice I never mentioned a necrosphinx, just a basic sphinx.

Did you ever fight the old stank? Do you have any idea how bent it would of been if it had gotten WS, I, Random Movement and a better cannon and kept its toughness 10? Oh and it went WAY down in points also. I am sorry but the Stank has gotten leagues better so I really do not think Empire players should complain.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Yes Against shoot which signifies the crew hiding behind it, do the crew stand outside a tank when attacked?.....

One is unbreakable, the sphinx crumbles to combat rez......
I mentioned bother, thats why I also said it can be a mount and have a breath template..... its the same creature refitted for a different job in essence.

I fought it, I beat it.
If it kept toughness at 7 I would not but dropping it 4 points is horrid...
Feel free to convince empire players on their forums otherwise....

 

[Johnny-Crass]

It is because Empires old book spoiled them rotten. Like honestly their old book in 8th was so bent out of shape. Now that they lost all their stupid toys they seem to be whining. But I got a buddy out here who runs two of them and refers to them as his 1+ armor save HPAs, and in a army that can spam life magic?

IMO the face of competitive Empire is 3 Rieksguard darts, 1 cannon, 2 stank, core filled with inner circle, and mounted characters which include a life caster for Flesh, Dwellers and Sig and a light caster for buffs and chaff removal.

 

[Yorga]

Got to admit I am loving the Warrior Priests and witch hunters now, I just miss the old steam tank....
I'm still ranting about toughness 6 damn it..... It makes no sense! :slapface:

Don't give me that. Might only be T6 but that 1+ armor save is brutal. My 500+ vampire was only able to get about 2 or 3 of it's 10 wounds done with her ogre blade while it smashed and grinded up her whole Black Knight Retinue. :slapface:

I am sorry but the Stank has gotten leagues better so I really do not think Empire players should complain.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

The 7th edition book was not to bad in 7th but under 8th edition rules it did give them a few edges.
Its not a attribute spell that heals them, its a lottery and expensive wizards are not a fall back choice you should have to make in a competitive army.

And then they lose watch tower.......
Few models and each loss will be keenly felt, I have seen cav heavy armies with empire,chaos and brets, only good one was high elves and all but the last gets the floor whipped with them.

Steam tanks the moment they are down a few wounds kill themselves.

Well to be honest mate if you have a 5 attacks, strength 7 vamp probs with red fury and are failing to hurt it.... you are having the worst luck I have heard about in a long time.....

 

[Yorga]

I did have a bit of bad luck. But I shudder to think about facing two stanks! The only time I killed one in 7th edition was a Vampire armed with the Frostblade. Oh wait...we don't have that item anymore.

I think I put 4 or 5 actual wounds on it but he made two saves at the 5+. But come on! I was strength 7! WTF?!

And people yell at us for bringing two Gheists... :slapface:

 

[Johnny-Crass]

People use Watchtower in a competitive environment? I highly doubt that

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Errrr, Warhammer World, GW HQ mate..... I go there for Tourneys...



On average if you have GG in horde with GW you will wound with half you're attacks which in 3 ranks assuming you have 2 spaces for characters in the front so 10 models, one a champ, 11 attacks, 5 or 6 wound from them, halfish saved, then lord who will do the same pain again, probs more plus other character then the tank kills itself because it trys to generate points with to many wounds.....

I have never failed to kill one in a game.
In 7th they were harder, in 8th its simple.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Any tournament that plays watch-tower the way it is written is a joke end of story. Make it worth 500-700 VPs and I could agree with that but making it a auto win is just a joke and I would never ever play in that tournament. Same goes for Blood and Glory in a lesser extent

 

[Chaos_Born]

In actual fact I find the Stank rarely kills itself when I've gotten it down to low wounds now. If it's in combat, it'll just generate a point or two to cause some impact hits and end up with some minor effect which leaves it able to do a little damage in combat. This is a lot better than the old system where if you misfired you couldn't do anything all turn, because now you actually have to kill the thing before it stops being a threat.

And on the subject of watchtower Johnny, why is it so ridiculous? Including watchtower and blood and glory in the game listings for a tournament is a very simple way of balancing the cheese somewhat. If you go around in a deathstar with only two puny other units, then they can just punish you for it in blood and glory. If you don't have any 20 man units of core infantry, so you've gone all hordes, then you'll be punished in watchtower. Equally relying on warmachines or monsters will be punished and so on. It encourages you to add tactical flexibility to your army

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Normally after 5 or 6 wounds I find it does.
Sure it still has 10 wounds but it will kill itself unless you can heal it and 90% you will either not have the wizard/ spells to do it or will be stopped from doing it.




The Watch tower is players as the BRB rules where who holds it at the end wins, nothing else.
This is UK GW Head office at Warhammer world and BRB rules which are for tournaments and regular gaming, if you don't play like that, fair enough, continue to play you're home rules warhammer but it is far from a joke.
Its playing by the rules, if you don't like it, don't play over here and go learn to play the violin because no one hear is going to have the sympathy to do it for you.

It does help break up armies, same as blood and glory.
You need banners so you can't really on a 2 or 3 block army because you can be beat far to easily like that, Watch Tower stops all cav and war machine forces.
In a tournament that is what it should be, tactics, not just another who kills who first.
Should not get you're knickers in a twist over it.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Most UK players I have talked to despise watchtower and blood for the same reasons I do. Playing a mission that is a auto- loose for some armies is neither fun nor competitive.

As a Bretonnian player are you really telling me that my only hope to win a game is in the hands of 10 peasant archers? Really? Or as a long time Throgg player are you telling me that just because I rolled a certain mission type I do not even deserve to PLAY my game?

As for getting Deathstars in the tower I showed you personally C_B how easy and stupid that is.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Just because you don't like it does not mean its not valid.
I play it in my local store and no one has shown a disliking for it so I don't know where you have got your figures from.

Its not a auto lose, you lose if you take an army that is not tactically flexible, being able to create a tactically flexible army is a must for generals, if you fail because you have just built death stars left and right with no though about how the army will work together you more than likely deserve the loss.

Ahem.... I play Brets as well....
Lets see, peasants using knights leadership you say along with my foot knights?....
What?.. is that, I can destroy the unit in the tower with re roll to wound flaming bows and treb's from long range whilst my cav mop up units around the tower to allow my foot to move into the tower?....
What I am saying is if you don't have the foresight to think these things may happen and plan an army to be able to fight all comers and be tactically flexible to then be beaten because you have to take a tower then you have not made a very good list and the loss should of been anticipated.

Every army has a way to win every game type, some have advantages, some have advantages, like Brets can take mountains of cav in their special cav formations and get a free BSB.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Why should I have to sabotage my theme and list just to play one garbage mission? Are you saying to every Thrott, Throgg and monster mash player out there "Tough, you got to compromise your theme in order to not instantly loose 1/6th of your games"? If so I would probably just not even unpack my models as at that point I can see how any game would go, regardless of mission.

The tower is not a fair or balanced mission in the least, regardless of your list it is not suited for tournament play, ever. And besides your self everyone I have talked to about Tower agrees it should just count for a chunk of VPs and that is all. Anything where it does not rely on player skill in a tournament game just becomes stupid and dull.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Because as a general in a strategy game you should be playing not thinking every game is just wipe you're foe out, missions are important, it adds colour to the game which makes it more than just kill the other side.

I am saying if they want to compete in a competition where the missions are random they should choose a list that is designed to take on all types of foes and not geared towards any one and at the same time consider what the mission may be and plan to play more than 1 type of game.
If they want to just take a few huge monsters and nothing else, fair enough but they will not win, this game is about more than monster hammer, its strategy, about knowing how to use you're chosen force the best and how to handle situations, not just throwing 1 or 2 massive monsters in and hoping for the best, this is Warhammer Johnny, not top trumps.
Fell free to keep you're models in the box, if you are not going to play because you don't like the rules and not have fun like the rest of us feel free to make the choice but its all part of the game.

It is fair and balanced, you take nothing but Cav and you pay the price for making that choice.
Now Games Workshop themselves say it is valid for Tournament play, if you don't think the rules and choices they come up with are right then just suck it up and get on with it as you are not going to change their mind.
It is skill to play an objective game, its just not big monsters and deathstars winning the game, sorry you had to use strategy.




And now back onto the topic of the empire book as we have went way off course with you're hate of watch towers which was a side topic.

Personally one thing that let me down was the lack of being able to take a Grand Master on Demi Gryph, what you think?
Considering they are held by the Knightly Orders you would expect one or 2 GM to be able to use one.

 

[Yorga]

As a Bretonnian player are you really telling me that my only hope to win a game is in the hands of 10 peasant archers? Really? Or as a long time Throgg player are you telling me that just because I rolled a certain mission type I do not even deserve to PLAY my game?

Are you the one responsible for that drek that Sirus took to SAWS Challenge? :tongue: Mind you, I might be likely fielding Trogg this Sunday so consider the above tonge and cheek.

However, I have to agree with Chaos Born. Tournaments SHOULD encourage fair play. That should mean balanced armies. We don't get that but that should be the goal. Take for example my friend's Empire Cav army. Every unit is knights, demi-gryphs, stank, and a couple cannons. This is a daunting army and I have not beaten him with two different Vampire lists so far. In fact his record with this army is... something like 15 wins and 2 loses. He runs Heavens or Light and has an Hurricanum. 2 WP, a Captain on the pegasus and a level 4. Most people just can't deal with his mobility, magical debuffs/buffs and lastly the 1+ armor save.

He COULD field some squishy handgunners or halbrediers IF he chose. But he likes to run us into the ground. Do I think he should have to worry about pulling Watch Tower as a possible scenario at a tourney? You BET! erv: His army as constructed is neither fair nor balanced.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

All about the fun of the game, if you game to the extreme in favour of one type in you're army you will suffer elsewhere.
I love cake but if I eat it all day I will get fat, not fun but it is the price I pay.

So back to empire, what do you think about the new model choices and how they work Yorga?

 

[Chaos_Born]

Yorga's post is exactly the reason I like the fact that watchtower and blood and glory are in tournaments. Sure your throgg army will be punished, but that's not the point of tournaments. If you want to have fun with a theme, just pick a scenario and play. If you want to play competitively, then you should be forced to come up with a flexible list capable of many things, rather than just smashing.

However, Duke you are bordering on aggressive up there with some of those metaphors. I recommend you tone it down a little lest someone takes such things seriously

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Not my intention mate, I'm just blunt.
Sorry if I seem a little harsh Johnny, hugs and kisses and all.

Cav can still dismount and attack buildings as well so not all is lost either.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Tis but a scratch I once had a fellow tell me I was the rudest person he has ever talked to after a long warhammer debate... And this was on the internet

As for the new units I am still unimpressed with Demigryphs and only luke warm on the Huricanum. As for the Luminark I think it is 100% garbage (now if the wardsaves stacked....). Though if I was still a Empire player I would be running atleast 3 witch-hunters with dual pistol in every list.

 

[Mad 'At]

Scenarios and missions are great, they add fun to the games and can even balance it. The problem is that B&G and Watchtower is that they are over the top. If both of them had VP bonus for capturing the tower/breaking the army then it would be much better. Allowing players to win without necessary for filling the main objective is good, because then it dose not force you into a certain tactic, it just encourages you to. You could play you Throgg army but the Blood and Glory scenario would be hard to win big but you would at least be allowed to play.

Also all "unbreakable" armies (VC, TK, DoC) have pretty unfair advantages in both scenarios, especially B&G because you actually have to kill every last one in the unit, not just win the combat once.

As far as I know ETC doesn't use the BRB scenarios, and more real tournament is hard to find (though I might be wrong on this point), and all the big tournaments in Sweden use their own scenarios, which are great. I going to one in august which even has a B&G scenario with just a VP bonus for breaking the enemy, it is great fun!

 

[Chaos_Born]

Okay, although I am a perpetrator, we seriously need to get back on the topic of the empire book. If anyone else has anything more to say on the topic of the BRB scenarios, could it please be done in a new thread

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

No, You are a pain in the backside but once the debate starts we can all be, thats why I never try to take things personally, hell I still have a ongoing debate about blood knights armour on here 10 pages long which we only stopped because we would never agree.

Witch hunters are good but so are warrior priests, just a shame about their loss of dispel dice..... never understood why they can not take plate armour.... o.o
Huricanum is ok for it's +1 to hit ability, thats what I like about it but the pair of them are nothing special.

The Demi Gryphs I do like for being able to field something for regular guys as a monstrous choice, having a unit of 3 of them is a nice danger to give you're foe in my eyes.
People worry to much about them, personally past flanking I don't use them.



Thats where i disagree Mad.
I see each having their own narration in a larger campaign, why do you need the tower?.... is something magical arriving there, is it to secure a prisoner or rescue one?....
Not everything is just a fight to the death and for this I like it.

UK Campaigns use their own but our Throne of Skulls and others all use the rule book ones.
The team that runs them rolls a giant dice and everyone plays that game, can't play the same one more than one.
Normally 5 games over 2 days, pub quiz, convert comps etc.
A great weekend to travel down the country for.

 

[Yorga]

As for the new units I am still unimpressed with Demigryphs and only luke warm on the Huricanum. As for the Luminark I think it is 100% garbage (now if the wardsaves stacked....).

Oh I disagree on the demigryphs. They have done nothing but deliver hurt to me. Again... 1+ armor on monstrous cav.. My friend's magic phase is well boosted by the Hurricanum. He agress with you about the Luminark.

Mortars are now crap. Str 2 and only armor piercing...please!

WP are still royal pains for their opponents.

I think the stank is awesome for it's points and would hate to face two!

Then there is the great cannon...why anyone would take a mortar over that...?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I would take two mortars and a Lvl4 shadow for some crop dusting....