How do you win?

[Ice Junkie]

Well this has certainly been more helpful than just posting a list...
As far as the vargheist vs BK debate is concerned, I'm gonna run the knights in units of 5 and use them for war machine hunting. I have 6 vargs and seeing as how They've been awesome in combat then getting killed due to CR, the extra rank and attacks will allow them to be useful for more than a supporting role.
I also play at a battle bunker, so I can't count on tailoring a list towards just a certain type of army.
At least my army is fully built and painted now... When I'm removing models in droves at least ill look good doing so!!
Thanks for the advice. But noone answered my question

 

[Harland]

I generally use slight of hand, witty exhortations, and scantilly-clad women to distract my opponents while I surreptiously tip their models onto the floor.

 

[Bravo_10]

We didn't answer your question, you say? Well, asking 'how do you win' is a very broad question.

If you're looking for tactical pointers, I'd say try playing defensively. In my early days as a gamer, I was enamored with the rather Orcish philosophy of "Chop 'em' up real close-like." My entire army would surge forward, get stuck into front-end combats, then immediately realize that it was outmatched. One by one, my units would crumble and holes would appear in my battle line. But eventually, I decided that it was time for a change. So, after watching a few online battle reports, I figured that I would try hanging back and letting my powerful VC magic take effect before I committed myself to CC. I saw immediate improvement, narrowly losing my first game (two straight double-ones in the magic phase doomed my strong effort) and drawing my next. The more I grew to understand the defensive play style, the better I did with it, eventually going on something like a 10 game lossless streak.

In the old rulebook, the Helm of Commandment was really the key for me, as I could force my opponents to fight an uphill battle by carefully choosing my fights and keeping the carnage limited to one or two separate close combats per turn. Now that the HoC is gone, it's become a bit harder to run that style, but it still has its advantages. For one, keeping the close combat isolated to only certain points of the field at a time allows you to concentrate your magic support, buffing your units epically with our awesome augments like VHD and Hellish Vigour (the thought of casting both at once is an exciting prospect ).

That said, tactics aren't everything. The game starts with list building, and having the right tools before the battle begins is handy. I'm sorry if you didn't get a reply on your army list last time, but if you put it up again I'll be sure to comment personally! Deployment is also crucial, and it's a skill that takes time and effort to master. Again, I would suggest watching a few battle reports on youtube, even of other armies, just to get the hang of how players like to deploy their armies in 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy.

 

[Grish]

@Ice Junkie:

Good list and good deployment are great starts. I would suggest you document how your deployment went at the start of the game. Take notes of what units were placed and in what order and relative placement. It is my experience that a game can be lost in the deployment phase.

Then make use Battle Chronicler or MS Paint or some program to show how deployment went and we can really help you at that point.

I think it could really help you improve your game.

 

[Sception]

I can't exactly answer how I win, because I'm not sure yet! Two months ago, I would have said the same thing as everyone else: gravestar flanked by ghoul hordes with skellie bunkered Mage lord. Rares, heroes, and chaff to taste. Well, almost everyone, there were some daring innovators even then, though I wasn't one of them.

But today? this list is too new. I've played all of two games. I lost both of them. I'm getting ready to play in a campaign where I get to use three separate army lists, and I'll be trying out some very different strategies.

1) ghoul king list with fear bomb and multiple screamers.

2) fast list with a tooled out mounted melee lord in a big unit of black knights

3) caster list mixing zombie horde & ethereal spam. I'm not yet sure who the caster will be though. Necro lord? Expensive vamp caster lord? Maybe Kemmler or Manny?

 

[N1AK]

I've played two games with the new book and had the good fortune to win them both. An overview of what I've been doing is:
1/ Taking minimum core made up of large Zombie and Skeleton blocks (including a bunker)
2/ Using a Ghoul King & Lvl 4 Necromancer
3/ Maxing out of Rare allowance (2-3 choices from Varghulf, Mortis Engine, Terrorgheist, Black Coach and Wraiths)
4/ Lots of chaff units (4+ units of Fell Bats, Spirit Hosts, Direwolves & Bat Swarms)
5/ Hitting Specials (Black Knights, GW GG, Vargheist, Crypt Horrors even CC for ASF/Impact hits)

I deploy my chaff units first to try and hide where my main force is going and get an idea of where my opponents units will be. My large core units form a strong line, generally deployed off centre so I can use special/rare to protect the gap between the board edge and the army.

I advance my army by being more aggressive on the loaded flank, trying to get round there side and fold their flank. My chaff units are used to slow down and tie up monsters or elite units. My large core blocks are used to absorb charges and provide static CR when my elite choices go in.

I don't play defensively but I have learnt not to rush with the VC. I'm happy to be behind during Turns 2-3 if I know I'm positioning to get some decisive victories in the 2nd half of the game.

 

[Mikael.K]

Nice post there N1AK, care to share your list with us?

 

[Ice Junkie]

Next time I play a game, Ill take pictures, and get Chris Berman to do the post game commentary (or Andres Cantor for those of you across the pond)
The kind of armies that I've always played isnt conducive to a defensive play style. I like the idea of having such a strong combat lord, but if its not working out Ill just have to switch it out to a more magic heavy list. I never realized how much more useful the corpse cart is, so with that, and counting on ASF, ill just give my grave guard great weapons instead of sword and board.

I also did not take into account how important deployment is compared to 40k, so 2 units of 5 direwolves should be nice for harassment/redirecting/cheap drops, right?

 

[Vampire bk]

im currently going for a core of25 GG with shields
zombies and 1/2 corpse carts and black knights

 

[VonDookie]

I never realized how much more useful the corpse cart is, so with that, and counting on ASF, ill just give my grave guard great weapons instead of sword and board.

Just remember that the Corpse Cart can only ever move 4" in the movement phase (unless you're charging). It cannot march move. So you'll be keen to keep it within range of VDM if you're planning on bringing it up the rear for the ASF buff (which, once you cast VDM on the cart, it'll trigger the buff right off the bat).

Just my two cents - I don't think that it's wise to take lots of zombies only, or lots of skeletons only. Each have their role to fulfill. Yes, they're great tarpits - but zombies are way better tarpits than skeletons when it comes to sheer numbers, but skeletons make up for that in the fact that they have an extra rank of fighting (if using spears, which I do) and if you're running an engine (which I do) you're trading a 6+ parry for a 6+ regen. So you really just gain the extra rank of attacks - sweet.

My first game that I played with the new book, I took huge blocks of inf. core. My immediate problem that I found with my list was what I already knew, but hadn't had to consider recently - the general's march move. Depending on how you deploy your army, you only really have about a 24" deployment zone for non-vampiric-types. so be careful of taking too many or too large of block inf. troops because almost certainly some of them will be pushed either too far to either side to be able to march, or too far back to be an effective tarpit later in the game without VDM.

 

[fjhamming]

Next time I play a game, Ill take pictures, and get Chris Berman to do the post game commentary (or Andres Cantor for those of you across the pond)
The kind of armies that I've always played isnt conducive to a defensive play style. I like the idea of having such a strong combat lord, but if its not working out Ill just have to switch it out to a more magic heavy list. I never realized how much more useful the corpse cart is, so with that, and counting on ASF, ill just give my grave guard great weapons instead of sword and board.

I also did not take into account how important deployment is compared to 40k, so 2 units of 5 direwolves should be nice for harassment/redirecting/cheap drops, right?

2x 5 dire wolves should be great.

There's nothing wrong with sword & board grave guard or combat lords either. You just have to compensate somewhere by taking another hammer unit (like discussed elsewhere on this forum, and i read you'd take 6 vargheist for that). Since hammer units are very fragile compared to anvils i like to take 2 hammers and 1 anvil if i can.

If you're not taking a caster lord, you'll need some lvl 2 heroes. But having 4-5 levels in total is fine in 2000 points.

 

[Bravo_10]

I feel like deploying our general close to one of the flanks is going to become standard deployment doctrine in this edition. In the old days, I would usually deploy the general centrally, so as to better support the rest of the army with his magic and keep most of it marching. Plus, Vampires still had a mini-march bubble, so my Blood Knight and Varghulf flankers were excellent to keep the extreme parts of my army in motion until they moved out to take up offensive positions and expose my opponent to their full threat ranges.

Nowadays however, the march bubble is extremely limited. The reason I advocate placing the general on the flank of your army is this: generally, the center of your line shouldn't have to move too quickly. It's far more important that you can sweep around one side of the field and expose your opponent to some devastating flank charges. Even if you never get the charges off, executing a sweeping motion with your line can force your opponent's army into a corner or otherwise disrupt his formation, making it easier for you to force favorable combats on him. I find it much more important to keep, say, Hexwraiths and Terrorgheists marching instead of Zombies/Skeletons. In any case, now that IoN is an AoE spell, it's a bit easier for a single caster to keep his section of the field topped off and ready for battle. In my matches, all the central units really have to do is survive long enough for my flankers to execute their game plans, and it's easier for the flankers to do so if they're kept within the march bubble.

 

[Ice Junkie]

I feel like deploying our general close to one of the flanks is going to become standard deployment doctrine in this edition. In the old days, I would usually deploy the general centrally, so as to better support the rest of the army with his magic and keep most of it marching. Plus, Vampires still had a mini-march bubble, so my Blood Knight and Varghulf flankers were excellent to keep the extreme parts of my army in motion until they moved out to take up offensive positions and expose my opponent to their full threat ranges.

Nowadays however, the march bubble is extremely limited. The reason I advocate placing the general on the flank of your army is this: generally, the center of your line shouldn't have to move too quickly. It's far more important that you can sweep around one side of the field and expose your opponent to some devastating flank charges. Even if you never get the charges off, executing a sweeping motion with your line can force your opponent's army into a corner or otherwise disrupt his formation, making it easier for you to force favorable combats on him. I find it much more important to keep, say, Hexwraiths and Terrorgheists marching instead of Zombies/Skeletons. In any case, now that IoN is an AoE spell, it's a bit easier for a single caster to keep his section of the field topped off and ready for battle. In my matches, all the central units really have to do is survive long enough for my flankers to execute their game plans, and it's easier for the flankers to do so if they're kept within the march bubble.

That's a really good point. having a loaded flank moving is important, and also keep in mind if youre playing another army that wants to get into combat, youre most likely going to be 24 inches away anyway. thats close enough for a charge by either of you turn two, three at the most

 

[N1AK]

Nice post there N1AK, care to share your list with us?

Thanks Mikael. Sorry for the slow response. I put a list in the army list forum: 2400pt VC List

My lists have all been minor variations on this theme. I think the Ghoul King is a great Lord choice. Re-rolls to hit and 5+ ward are worth the 40pt bump over a normal Lord (especially as he has a poor mans 4++ when combo'd with the Mortis Engine).

A level 4 is key in 8th edition (in my opinion) so I basically have to make the Ghoul King and Master Necromancer fit the 600pt max.

I'm still struggling to get enough punch in my list. 600pts of core provides a lot of tarpits but we don't have anything really killy (I'm experimenting with Crypt Horrors which I think could fill that niche). I've had pretty poor results from Hexwraiths so far, but I I think this is down to poor luck not the unit and will keep testing them out.