Impact hits on a character in a unit

[Alabaster427]

I know that normally, if a character is in a unit, then then impact hits will go against the unit, but if a chariot hits only a character (due to the unit having only one rank) like on the flank, are the impact hits directed against the character or the unit?

I was looking up the rules and Impact hits are distributed as shooting, so could not normally target a character in a unit. However, if the unit has less than five models, then it can, following specific rules. Impact hits don't make much sense with that rule because it may not make it through the character. Under impact hits, it also says that it has to hit at least one model in the unit (not characters) to be resolved against the unit. (I am paraphrasing because I don't have my book with me).

So what happened was, Heinrich Kemmler was ethereal and he was in a unit of two skeletons and Krell. A chariot charged the flank and only contacted Heinrich. The argument is whether or not the impact hits go against the skeletons or the character.

We ended up saying that no hits are resolved.

 

[Mad 'At]

I'd say that the characters are still part of the unit. So if the chariot is in contact with the characters it is in contact with the unit. Hits go against the unit unless there are less than 5 RnF, in which case you get to distribute the hits as you please but only 2 hits on one guy once all other guys got 1 hit (i.e. normal distributing rules for shooting).

 

[midean]

Mad'At is correct. Even if the chariot is touching just character/characters the hits are distributed as shooting into the unit. I have had this happen often when playing Ogres and running a character meat shield in the front row.

 

[Alabaster427]

Mad'At is correct. Even if the chariot is touching just character/characters the hits are distributed as shooting into the unit. I have had this happen often when playing Ogres and running a character meat shield in the front row.

So if there are less than 5 R&F models, does it still get distributed like shooting? What if one of those characters are in a challenge (Krell)?

 

[midean]

If there are less than 5 R&F then you would distribute the hits as you see fit allocating them one at a time till all hits have been given out. You have to give each model 1 hit before giving someone a 2nd. Impact hits cannot hit characters in a challenge as they are CC attacks.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Impact hits are before challenges so you can never be in a challenge before Impact hits are resolved. Even when it is an 'ongoing' challenge (i.e. a 2nd round because the first was a draw) then impact hits are still resolved before challenges are fought, so a character "locked in challenge" can still be hit since that challenge is not yet happening (again).


The thing with Impact hits is that it is not really an attack. It just shows the impact a certain unit causes when succesfully completing the charge and counts for CR.
A single model that is in a challenge with another single model can still be charged and can still get hit by impact hits.

Imo its a misconception that impact hits cannot be distributed to characters locked in challenge. A challenge is something that happens each round before regular closecombat is resolved. Impact hits however are resolved before challenges are fought.
Even if a character is still by honour bound to fight another round of challenge and can therefore not be attacked by other units in closecombat, it can still be affected by a chariot charging into him/her and causing impact hits.
A challenge 'ends' in the closecombatphase, even if it is a challenge without a casualty. the challenge will have to be taken up again in the round after which is basically an automatic re-issuing of the same challenge and blocking any other challenges from happening.
This doesnt mean that Impact hits are not allowed.

 

[Alabaster427]

Impact hits are before challenges so you can never be in a challenge before Impact hits are resolved. Even when it is an 'ongoing' challenge (i.e. a 2nd round because the first was a draw) then impact hits are still resolved before challenges are fought, so a character "locked in challenge" can still be hit since that challenge is not yet happening (again).


The thing with Impact hits is that it is not really an attack. It just shows the impact a certain unit causes when succesfully completing the charge and counts for CR.
A single model that is in a challenge with another single model can still be charged and can still get hit by impact hits.

Imo its a misconception that impact hits cannot be distributed to characters locked in challenge. A challenge is something that happens each round before regular closecombat is resolved. Impact hits however are resolved before challenges are fought.
Even if a character is still by honour bound to fight another round of challenge and can therefore not be attacked by other units in closecombat, it can still be affected by a chariot charging into him/her and causing impact hits.
A challenge 'ends' in the closecombatphase, even if it is a challenge without a casualty. the challenge will have to be taken up again in the round after which is basically an automatic re-issuing of the same challenge and blocking any other challenges from happening.
This doesnt mean that Impact hits are not allowed.

I don't think that is accurate, because if neither model dies while in the challenge, it doesn't end then restart the next turn. It says that it is ongoing; no new challenges can be issued until one model is slain or the unit containing the character in a challenge breaks from combat. I think there was even another thread about this and it came to that conclusion.

 

[Skittelz1981]

It is ongoing yes, but both models do not disappear from the battlefield. The combatphase, however, ends and with it the challenge. which is reinstated in the next phase automatically.

Two single models (not in a unit) locked in challenge can still be charged and CR can still be influenced by another flank/rearcharge or if a RnF unit charges ranks and banners can tip the odds by changing CR.

If a model is locked in challenge like you say, then even charging it would be impossible since it is not allowed to attack a model locked in a challenge.

With the combatphase ending, and thus also the challenge, charges are allowed against challenging models, so are impact hits, since those happen before combat and before challenges.

 

[Alabaster427]

It is ongoing yes, but both models do not disappear from the battlefield. The combatphase, however, ends and with it the challenge. which is reinstated in the next phase automatically.

Two single models (not in a unit) locked in challenge can still be charged and CR can still be influenced by another flank/rearcharge or if a RnF unit charges ranks and banners can tip the odds by changing CR.

If a model is locked in challenge like you say, then even charging it would be impossible since it is not allowed to attack a model locked in a challenge.

With the combatphase ending, and thus also the challenge, charges are allowed against challenging models, so are impact hits, since those happen before combat and before challenges.

I remember what the result was now. GW said "Roll a D6, on a 4+, the impact hits affect the character in a challenge."

 

[Skittelz1981]

Well, GW can go kiss my ass with their sorry "leave it to the diceluck" rule makeups.

If you have to roll a dice for it, its possible.
So for me Impact hits can happen, as GW so kindly made clear. (GW not actually writing a proper rule for it doesnt mean that reading properly the other rules already clarifies the situation).
Apparently GW also thinks it can happen but theyre too lazy so they just say "roll a dice, 50% chance for both sides". GW didnt say "no, impossible" so to me its a "yes, impact hits are before challenges and are rsolved against characters locked in challenge"

As if all of a sudden, the fact of being in a challenge makes you able to dodge a chariots impact.....

 

[midean]

Well, GW can go kiss my ass with their sorry "leave it to the diceluck" rule makeups.

If you have to roll a dice for it, its possible.
So for me Impact hits can happen, as GW so kindly made clear. (GW not actually writing a proper rule for it doesnt mean that reading properly the other rules already clarifies the situation).
Apparently GW also thinks it can happen but theyre too lazy so they just say "roll a dice, 50% chance for both sides". GW didnt say "no, impossible" so to me its a "yes, impact hits are before challenges and are rsolved against characters locked in challenge"

Well I don't plan on opening this can of worms again Skittz. We will have to just disagree on the whole impact hits and challenges. We already went a couple rounds on this topic before.

As if all of a sudden, the fact of being in a challenge makes you able to dodge a chariots impact.....

Just like all of a sudden the chariot hitting only characters and then distributing the hits the all the dudes behind them...right....:slapface: But that's GW for yah.....

 

[najo]

So I reviewed the rules and here is my interpretation:

Impact hits occur, distributed as shooting. So, no matter where the chariot/whatever is touching the unit (character in a challenge, ethereal character, etc) it does the hits into the unit as a whole. So the rank and file take it regardless.

If there is less than 5 rank and file and there are characters. The controlling player evenly distributes the hits 1 at a time onto the models in the unit as they wish. By shooting rules, this could be a character in a challenge.

Now, the only confusion. Impact hits say this is a special kind of close combat attack, and it says under challenges that attacks can't be directed at characters in a challenge. But, impact hits aren't attacks being directed, they are distributed like shooting. The intent is impact hits the unit as a whole, like a template or hex spell and such. The chariot isn't directly attacking the character in a challenge.

So, the question is, can you allocate impact hits onto characters in a challenge? If simple as distributed as shooting, then the answer is yes. But since it is a close combat attack, and the FAQ even give examples of breath weapons not going outside of a challenge to hit the unit the character is in, I'd say this challenged characters are isolated from outside and outside isolated from them with anything close combat hit allocation.

So, I would rule impact hits cannot be allocated to a character in a challenge. But, if a chariot is only touching the challenging character or ethereal, it still hits the unit they are part of. So Midean and Mad'at have it right.

 

[bigbadbat]

Couldn't agree with you breakdown more najo.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I dont agree
And apparently GW doesnt agree, since they solution it by rolling a dice with 50/50

Like you point it out, its a special kind of closecombat attack that is not specifically directed at a model but merely at the unit it touches and is distributed as shooting and resolved BEFORE closecombat. If the unit touched so happens to be a single model locked in challenge that is not in a unit, it cannot dodge the impact of the charging chariot.Challenged models inside a unit is a completely different matter and cannot be hit.

A breath attack is something else entirely and really cannot be related to impact hits. So an faq on breath attack has nothing to do with impact hits.

 

[najo]

GW does tend to say things plainly and in what they think is common sense wording instead of mechanical game speak. If they think saying no attacks can be directed at a model in a challenge is clear enough then its clear enough. The breath attack in GW speak is relevant because it states the reason that special attack distributed as a shooting attack can't be assigned to the model is due to the challenge. Let's put it this way, if the impact hit is essentially a distribute as a shooting attack, then it works exactly like breath weapon and ignores models in challenge. If its something more, i.e. a close combat attacks (which it says it basically is) then it can't be directed at the model due to the rules on challenges. See, in GW logic, they got it covered.

A good example is IoN affecting Ethereal and Vampiric units. The rules pretty much say maximum of 1 wound healed. They address this in the FAQ as vampiric models may only heal 1 wound per casting. Its pretty obvious in context that GW meant the whole one sentence rule that states vampiric, ethereal and large models. But because the FAQ only uses vampiric as an example, there is a percentage of RAW players who basically allow ethereal units to recover 1 wound per model. In GW's mind, they answered the question and assume everyone is playing 1 wound per casting on ethereal, vampiric and large. But because it wasn't Magic the Gathering rules speak, there is a (very, very) small loop hole. This impact hit vs challenges is on the edge of that.

In my opinion, this is where Warhammer players can save themselves headaches by looking at understanding Warhammer's rules in the most plain speak fashion as possible. When we do that, we avoid debacles like unmodified leadership and all of us end up on the same page when the eventual FAQ comes out. GW has been like this since I started playing their games with Warhammer 3rd edition and 40k 1st, that let's have fun with our cool toys is the core spirit of the hobby. They haven't quite caught up to the MTG era of tight well polished mechanics with wording exactly as its written. They want things a step more laid back than that.

Side note, where does it say roll a dice? We just going off the if you don't agree with your opponent part of Warhammer or is it specifically in the rules for challenges?

 

[Skittelz1981]

I dont remember who but it got covered in another thread about this exact same issue.
What lingers in my mind is that it was settled in a White Dwarf? but i cant be 100% certain, but if you scroll up back to the beginning of this thread it is mentioned as well, so is the link i think to the relevant thread.
Likely to take up quite some reading...


Also i dont really get what you mean with Ethereal/vampiric and IoN...
Ive read that part of your post 3x and i still dont see the nuance.... The spellwording in AB says: "Vampiric, Ethereal and Large Target can never regain more than 1 wound per casting" (per casting of IoN that is)
Then they address something in faq? what is being adressed? Vampirics can still regain only 1 wound per casting... so what has changed?
The spellwording is extremely clear and i cant seem to find the faq you are referring to.


But i think it is important to make sure we speak about the same thing.
I have the feeling that you mean a breath attack cannot be directed at a challenged model when it is inside a unit (which is true and the breath needs to be directed at the unit he is in). When it is a solo model in a challenge, said breath that comes from a third source can still not be directed at it as ruled per faq. (since its either a shooting attack which cant be directed at units in combat or in some cases is a closecombat-shooting attack that is made in the closecombat phase (but not necessarily before closecombatattacks))
The Impact hits are of a different nature though and they also represent something entirely different (my pov obviously which is the matter of this discussion).
-its a closecombat attack (which would be disallowed as per ruling of challenges)
-its distributed as shooting
-its resolved before closecombat (this is actually the part that really matters)
-its a special kind of attack
-it represents the impact said unit has when it charges (another part that really matters)

-- Normally you cant shoot at units in combat, yet this is distributed as shooting in closecombat
-- Normally you cant attack a model in a challenge with closecombatattacks

The real difference for me is the description of Impact Hits and what GW tries to accomplish with their description, namely; to portray the sheer impact of the unit due to its type and speed at which it comes crashing in when it succesfully charges. This cannot be undone by being in a challenge since the challenged model is still prone to charging, and because of being open and prone to charging it is thus open and prone to Impact hits because it can be charged by models that cause Impact hits.
Secondly, the fact that Impact hits are resolved before Closecombat, which effectively allows Impact hits to be resolved against a model in a challenge that is not in a unit. Like i explained earlier, the actual fact of Impact hits being resolved before closecombat kind of places them out of regular cc-attacks that get directed on purpose. These are not attacks you direct at something by choice. Its not a real closecombat attack, which exempts them from the rules that cc-attacks can never be made against models in challenge. Theyre not cc-attacks and they happen before cc-attacks actually happen.

Maybe GW could have made this clearer by resolving the Impact hits directly in the Chargephase but wording them as counting towards CR. But that is abit of a tricky situation since something that happened in the movementphase is easily forgotten in CR-counting. Which is the only reason they are resolved before CC but count towards CR.

 

[midean]

I dont remember who but it got covered in another thread about this exact same issue.
What lingers in my mind is that it was settled in a White Dwarf? but i cant be 100% certain, but if you scroll up back to the beginning of this thread it is mentioned as well, so is the link i think to the relevant thread.
Likely to take up quite some reading...

Nothing rules wise is ever settled in a White Dwarf battle report. Those things are so full of mistakes and rules breakage it isn't even funny.

The Impact hits are of a different nature though and they also represent something entirely different (my pov obviously which is the matter of this discussion).
-its a closecombat attack (which would be disallowed as per ruling of challenges)

Correct. And at this point the rest is mote. You have answered the question right here in the rules! But still you continue with "opinions" not rules.

-its distributed as shooting

Correct rule again.

-

]its resolved before closecombat (this is actually the part that really matters)

It still is resolved in the CC phase.

-its a special kind of attack

Correct rule again.

-it represents the impact said unit has when it charges (another part that really matters)

Correct but I don't see how a description of the EVENT really matters????

-- Normally you cant shoot at units in combat, yet this is distributed as shooting in closecombat

Correct. You can't shoot into combat. But Impact hits are in the CC phase and are not a shooting attack. So what's your point here?

-- Normally you cant attack a model in a challenge with closecombatattacks

Again, End of matter. You say here yourself that you can't attack a model in a challenge with CC attacks. But still you persist.

The real difference for me is the description of Impact Hits and what GW tries to accomplish with their description, namely; to portray the sheer impact of the unit due to its type and speed at which it comes crashing in when it succesfully charges. This cannot be undone by being in a challenge since the challenged model is still prone to charging, and because of being open and prone to charging it is thus open and prone to Impact hits because it can be charged by models that cause Impact hits.

Please don't try and use real life physics and situations and apply them to a FANTASY game. It never ever ever works out. And above all you are stating what is your opinion which you yourself have discounted in RULE FACTS above. It can be undone cause the rules tell you it can't be done.

Secondly, the fact that Impact hits are resolved before Closecombat, which effectively allows Impact hits to be resolved against a model in a challenge that is not in a unit. Like i explained earlier, the actual fact of Impact hits being resolved before closecombat kind of places them out of regular cc-attacks that get directed on purpose. These are not attacks you direct at something by choice. Its not a real closecombat attack, which exempts them from the rules that cc-attacks can never be made against models in challenge. Theyre not cc-attacks and they happen before cc-attacks actually happen.

Again, It doesn't matter if it is resolved before the fighting between models happens. It is still all in the CC phase. And stating that since the hits are resolved before CC KIND OF places them out of regular CC attacks. Really? Not a REAL CC attack? Really? Care to share where it states that impact hits are just kinda CC attacks. But I know you have no rules to back this up so we are back to your opinions. Backed up by.......nothing. No rules. Just your opinion.

We can beat this dead horse over and over again. I have pointed out the rules to you. Others have pointed out the rules to you. You yourself and pointed out those very same rules. But still you persist in putting forth your opinions or this is how it should be as rules. Sorry M8, in this instance you are wrong.

 

[najo]

Let's keep things friendly. I understand where skittlez is coming from. Basically he is saying, how does this thundering chariot slam into this guy in combat and not deal any damage. But, as midean broke it down for you, it is a game and it can't cover every minute detail. Think of it this way, when two characters are in a challenge, everyone else backs off. So that chariot chimes thundering up and stops waiting to see how it's commander or whatever does. He is staying out of the way.

One final point. Essentially the rule book says impact hits are a special close combat attack that happen before other attacks, when the unit charges. It doesn't say in any way that these are not happening outside of combat or aren't close combat, it pretty much says it happens before ASF at the charge instead of after. So, since challenges day close combat attacks can't be directed into those in a challenge and impact his are close combat attacks....

As for the whole ethereal thing, Invocation says "infantry gain D6 plus the caster's level in wounds; other troop types targets gain 1 plus the caster's wizard level in wounds. However, models with the vampiric, ethereal or large target special rule can never regain more than 1 wound per successful casting.

So, because of that word model, there are some players who rule that IoN gives all non-infantry 1+level but with a maximum of 1 per model. So, a unit of hexwraiths would regain 1+wizard since they have 1 wound each.

Now, I've never played it this way. I think it's obvious that those units only gain a single wound. GW goes on in the FAQ to confirm this. But since the example in the FAQ is only vampiric, even though it's obviously clarifying this one rule, because it doesn't mention ethereal there are rare hold out vampire players who claim RAW allows ethereals to still gain 1+wizard max 1 per model when for 99% of us it's obvious GW has cleared up this little snafu. Any rate, it's one of those fuzzy areas and where this whole impact hits in challenges thing is similar is with one word. Challenges say you can't direct close combat attacks onto models in a challenge. Technically, you are not directing impact hits. You don't choose where they go. This is the very small loop hole that could be argued. But in my mind, and honestly by the whole of the rules in context, impact hits don't affect challenges.

Hey, you really want to open a rules can o' worms, let's discuss when a spell is successfully cast and lore attributes trigger

 

[Skittelz1981]

@midean.
Its the same type of issue with the tg-scream where people claim it couldnt be used in certain situations but the one word "may" actually brings in all the nuance.

A rule that states that a challenged character can not be attacked by a third party doesnt mean there is some rule or wording elsewhere that contradicts. which is what i am pointing out.

Like pretty much everything in warhammer you have to scramble together a bunch of different rules from different books and put them side by side and figure out what the right way to read and play is.

 

[midean]

@midean.
A rule that states that a challenged character can not be attacked by a third party doesnt mean there is some rule or wording elsewhere that contradicts. which is what i am pointing out.

But what rule is there that you think that allows you to attack into a challenge though? Not opinions, rules. It is pretty specific that no CC attacks, which impact hits are, can be directed into a challenge. Does it make sense that a chariot crashing into a dude fighting another dude and having nothing happen to him, no..not really. But dem's the rules and till they change them we are stuck with them.

 

[bigbadbat]

Regarding the IoN thing, I think it matters to make a point that there are multi wound ethereal models. I.e. Spirit hosts.
That really lends itself worthy to the usage of "model" regarding IoN and the inclusion of only Blood Knights and Vampiric with regards to wounds regained.

 

[Skittelz1981]

@najo, lets discuss when a spell is succesfully cast and lore att triggera!

 

[najo]

Regarding the IoN thing, I think it matters to make a point that there are multi wound ethereal models. I.e. Spirit hosts.
That really lends itself worthy to the usage of "model" regarding IoN and the inclusion of only Blood Knights and Vampiric with regards to wounds regained.

The FAQ is just answering a question though about the rule, which the question only uses vampiric and the GW staffer just is responding and giving an example, not excluding ethereal and large. The rule for healing vampiric units/ models in the book isn't separate from ethereal and large models. Its a single sentence with each type separated by a comma. This means the the rule as a whole that they are calrifying in the FAQ applies equally to each type in the sentence. There is no seperation in the rule and the FAQ is not an errata, its a clarification, which is different.

It should be noted they corrected this issue in the Legions of the Undead rules for resurrecting fallen warriors. It clearly states unit instead of model. Though we can argue that those rules are for the new list. It shows intent of the original rule, the intent of the FAQ and the newest form of it being essentially the same rule with model replaced with unit like it should be.

I really do not see how hexwraiths can be healed level+1 up to number of models in unit. That is not how the spell works. Its 1 wound healed per casting for vampiric, ethereal, and large units.

 

[najo]

@najo, lets discuss when a spell is succesfully cast and lore att triggera!

Ok, here is the quick version (i.e. I'm not breaking out Orcs and Goblines, Ogres, BRB etc to get specific wordings right now and going off memory, though I had this all typed up on another board at one point.) so the Vampire Power Dark Acolyte states that you add D3 to the casting value of a successfully cast Invocation of Nehek. The FAQ confirms that this is before your opponent rolls to dispel.

The lore attribute of Vampires and Tomb Kings both trigger when a spells is successfully cast.

There are multiple lores that state when a spell successfully casts and resolves. Others that state when you cast.

The rules are 1) roll for winds 2) cast 3) Dispel 4) Resolution (i.e. resolve)

A spell by these rules gets cast at step 2 and is either successful or not. If successful, then opponent can attempt to dispel it. Then if failed, the spell resolves. The start of step 3 even states "if a wizard was able to cast his spell" which essentially means cast successfully.

So the what we have here is a clear step by step process that casts spells, checks for success, allows dispel, then resolves. We have lore attributes and powers that trigger off each of these states i.e. cast, successfully cast, successfully cast and resolved (i.e. dispel attempt failed).

So, this would mean Vampire and TK lores would roll to cast, if succeed they heal, then opponent would attempt dispel and then spell effect would resolve.

What complicates this is 7th edition had clear stats, was laid out in step by step with consistent wording and successfully cast is AFTER dispel. But in 8th, its is not consistent (i.e. if wizard is able to has the same general meaning as successful, but its not exact equivalent).

The other irony, is the rules run very smoothly like this, as the vampire power shows.

But I found when playing I have to argue it every time, 95% of players play that successfully cast means NOT DISPELLED and GW has never addressed it in the FAQ.

I think the problem is Mat Ward wrote the core rules a little to casually and the rules are probably successfully cast is before dispel, which is why we have multiple states of lore attribute. But everyone is playing by previous edition structure since the new rules do not clearly lay out the new structure properly and in casual reading without rules like Dark Acolyte to make you stop a minute and examine, it seems that the rules didn't change from 7th.

But Phil Kelly is a good designer, GW only answers the question on the Dark Acolyte power with a simple 'yes' instead of addressing some point about casting rolls.

Another point, if the rules were after dispel, Dark Acolyte would state add d3 to your cating roll if the roll equals or exceeds the value. BUT equal or exceeds the value is Successfully Casts. Hence my point about when Lore Attributes trigger.

Want to take it one more step. Phil wrote the whole Vampire book. If he intended Dark Acolyte's successfully cast to be after the roll before the dispel. Then the Lore Attribute he created with the same wording must work the same, right?

 

[Alabaster427]

Regarding the IoN thing, I think it matters to make a point that there are multi wound ethereal models. I.e. Spirit hosts.
That really lends itself worthy to the usage of "model" regarding IoN and the inclusion of only Blood Knights and Vampiric with regards to wounds regained.

I was just thinking about this comment and thought of a Wight king in a unit of blood knights. If the WK has one wound remaining and the Blood Knights have two models slain, then the WK would regain 2 wounds and the Blood Knights 1 wound, maxing out at 1+wizard level OR if there is a VL and WK in the Blood Knights, the VL would gain 1 wound, the WK gets 2, and the Blood Knights 1. Am I correct in this assessment as you have stated?