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Sephire124

Zombie
Jan 20, 2012
7
I had an argument with someone today about how many models come back in a blood knights unit from IoN. He says that when cast on a blood knight unit they will regain 1 + the wizards level instead of just 1 model. What are other peoples thoughts on this?

The detail where it says models with the vampiric rule is in question. Since the blood knight "model" has 1 wound it can therefore get several blood knights back.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
RAW leans towards the 1+ caster level interpretation, but that's pretty clearly not what was intended, so expect it to get fixed in errata sooner rather then later. In the mean time, I'd play it as it was pretty clearly intended - 1 per casting.
 

Sephire124

Zombie
Jan 20, 2012
7
The old invocation said units with the vampire rule and the new one says models with the vampire rule. This is why hes convinced of the change.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Oct 11, 2007
5,319
Winnipeg, MB
I believe it would be a game balance issue if Blood Knights could be healed like that. Cast by a lvl 4 necromancer, that would be 5 knights per casting ,not counting other models, would be over 200 pts. I can't see this as being intended. If it is, VC will have Blood Knight Death Stars all over the place.
 

HERO

Wight King
Mar 25, 2009
434
Grish said:
I believe it would be a game balance issue if Blood Knights could be healed like that. Cast by a lvl 4 necromancer, that would be 5 knights per casting ,not counting other models, would be over 200 pts. I can't see this as being intended. If it is, VC will have Blood Knight Death Stars all over the place.

Agreed. Only 1 Knight back per casting as per the Vampiric rule.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
Again, the vampiric rule does not actually say that as written. But yes, it will say that as soon as our Q&A is out, so 1 knight per casting is how I'd play it.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Anyone insisting on playing it as per the RAW (1+caster lvl), deserves a good slap. At the very least, the person looses all rights to complain against anything being unfair/unbalanced etc in other army books, for EVER. I'd go so far as to insist that such a player would have to accept the OK "greedy fist" combo with a big smile and a polite nod, if ever encountered.

5 Blood Knights back on a simple 6+ casting roll, in addition to the possibility of raising models in a multiple other units in the vicinity as well, is just preposterous from a balance perspective. The Blood Knights would not be delegated on a flank ever again, but instead sit right in the main battle line, to get the maximum out of IoN. It would be damn near impossible to kill them all.

As Malisteen says, I think this will be fixed quckly and will soon be a non-issue. The fact that we can now get multiple Black Knights back is HUGE in my book, even bordering on being much too powerful. Black Knights can now grind down large hordes potentially, something most cavalry have lost the ability to do.
 

texhnology

Skeleton
Dec 27, 2011
83
As it stands now.

You get 1+WL blood knights back from a single casting of Invocation of Nehek.

The reason for this is that the rules prevent a model from gaining more than one wound. But in the case of blood knights you only ever heal 1 wound on a model, then you go to the next one and heal the next wound.

The wording of the spell has to change to something like "units with the vampiric rule only get 1 wound back from a single casting of invocation of nehek"

The same problem comes with the hexwrights, since the wording for raising ethereals is the same.

Even Vargheists suffer from this problem, but it's inconsistent. If the vargheist unit has suffered 4 wounds, you can heal 1 wound, brining the damaged vargheist to full wounds, after that you can heal another wound on the "dead" vargheist.

However this does not work if the unit has suffered 5 wounds. Since you are only allowed to heal a single wound on a vampire model, you can not bring the vargheist to full wounds. And because of that you can not raise the dead one back.

It sounds a bit too good. But arguing this is wrong, and that you should not use RAW to raise more than 1 blood knight/hexwright/vargheist. And at the same time arguing that you should use strict RAW on the lore attribute(I still think its RaW that it can heal characters, but some people dont), not allowing it to heal characters. Is imo stupid. Be consistent, pick either RAW or RAI and go with it.
Either you do both as RAW, or you do both as RAI.
 

desfer

Necromancer
Jun 13, 2010
801
Attiki, Atthens
here goes again, once more the typical model vs unit argument. Maybe GW should include in BRB's FAQ "units consist of models (rly?! tell me more). All models in a unit should be treated as an entity and not separately, unless stated otherwise." I also believe it's 1 wound per IoN cast for Blood Knights.
 

texhnology

Skeleton
Dec 27, 2011
83
desfer said:
here goes again, once more the typical model vs unit argument. Maybe GW should include in BRB's FAQ "units consist of models (rly?! tell me more). All models in a unit should be treated as an entity and not separately, unless stated otherwise." I also believe it's 1 wound per IoN cast for Blood Knights.

Yea but what about, "a model only gains one attack" wordings then ?

Would the whole unit just get a single attack ?
 

texhnology

Skeleton
Dec 27, 2011
83
Yea I know it's in the book, I know the rules.

I just ment that if they write models, we have to asume they mean models, and not unit.

If some spell would say, "models get +2 attacks, however models with the cavalry trooptype can never gain more than +1 attack from this spell".

Would the cavalry unit only gain 1 attack, or 1 attack for each model in the unit ?
 

desfer

Necromancer
Jun 13, 2010
801
Attiki, Atthens
This spell you are writing about targets every model in the unit. The unit gets +1 attack on it's models profiles (like we had 20 profiles for a 20 man unit, but because we want the game to be faster we treat it as one). IoN doesn't target anything or actually targets everything. The unit of Blood Knights get's healed. Blood Knights are vampiric models and consist a vampiric unit so only one wound can be healed. Not 1 wound for every model, just one for the whole unit. Is there anyone that doesn't agree that if all models in a unit have the vampiric rule, they make a vampiric unit? I think i made it much more confusing than it is :tongue:
 

texhnology

Skeleton
Dec 27, 2011
83
desfer said:
This spell you are writing about targets every model in the unit. The unit gets +1 attack on it's models profiles (like we had 20 profiles for a 20 man unit, but because we want the game to be faster we treat it as one). IoN doesn't target anything or actually targets everything. The unit of Blood Knights get's healed. Blood Knights are vampiric models and consist a vampiric unit so only one wound can be healed. Not 1 wound for every model, just one for the whole unit. Is there anyone that doesn't agree that if all models in a unit have the vampiric rule, they make a vampiric unit? I think i made it much more confusing than it is :tongue:

But the spell says

"the target units immediately regains a number of wound as follows. Infantry gains d6+caster level, other troop types targeted gains 1 + caster level. However models with the vampiric etheral or large target rules can never regain more than 1 wound."

This means that you target the blood knight unit. The unit will regain 1+caster level wounds. But you can only heal 1 wound on a model with the vampiric rule. Now this is a restriction, if they got more than 1 wound that is. But in this case they only got 1 wound, So each model would only regain 1 wound, just as the rules state.

They have to write something like "Models and units consisting of models with the vampiric, ethereal or Large Target special rule can never regain more than one wound per sucessful casting." for it to work as we want/expect.
 

Forgotten Heretic

Grave Guard
Feb 3, 2009
238
texhnology said:
It sounds a bit too good. But arguing this is wrong, and that you should not use RAW to raise more than 1 blood knight/hexwright/vargheist. And at the same time arguing that you should use strict RAW on the lore attribute(I still think its RaW that it can heal characters, but some people dont), not allowing it to heal characters. Is imo stupid. Be consistent, pick either RAW or RAI and go with it.
Either you do both as RAW, or you do both as RAI.

not sure about blood knights, personally i'd go with only resurrecting one knight per spell but i see what you're saying. on the lore attribute healing characters i dont see where the problem is. the resurrecting fallen warriors part in the book says that spells and magic items cant heal characters unless otherwise stated, but a lore attribute is neither, plus it says that when a spell is sucessfully cast the wizard or other friendly model regains a wound, all casters are characters.
 

Tal Rasha

Grave Guard
Jan 24, 2008
208
Ok, they worded that poorly, but you I assure you, only one Blood Knight can be raised per casting.
 

Zombilly

Zombie
Jan 22, 2012
39
If you cast IoN on blood knighs could you choose to give them 2 wounds per casting because of the lore attribute, or does that only work on a model thats still lives on the battlefield?
 

Forgotten Heretic

Grave Guard
Feb 3, 2009
238
no i'm pretty sure you're right, the lore attribute is healing not resurrecting models so you can only give a wound to a model thats alive, figuratively anyway :lol:
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Oct 11, 2007
5,319
Winnipeg, MB
Tal Rasha said:
Ok, they worded that poorly, but you I assure you, only one Blood Knight can be raised per casting.
I'm assuming you're basing this on your assumption (well placed) of Rules of Intended? Rules as Written seems to disagree. We all know what we think they Meant, but we've been wrong before (High Elf ASF + Great Weapons).
 

maxtoreador

Grave Guard
Sep 11, 2011
213
I agree, book says one wound per model.... that's alot of Blood Knights. But is obviously NOT the intent. I'll also agree with most that Kelly makes a damn balanced book but the horrible wording that gets by him is another story entirely. Our errata/faq is sorely needed sooner rather than later, must be the first to admit I'll squeeze a rule a tiny bit every once and a while in a competitive game but a blatant OP exploit like this I will not ever do.
 

_Revan_

Black Knight
Jul 6, 2010
306
Colorado
Uziel said:
Anyone insisting on playing it as per the RAW (1+caster lvl), deserves a good slap. At the very least, the person looses all rights to complain against anything being unfair/unbalanced etc in other army books, for EVER. I'd go so far as to insist that such a player would have to accept the OK "greedy fist" combo with a big smile and a polite nod, if ever encountered.

I agree completely. It's a shrewd interpretation of the rules that attempts to justify this. I would have hoped the removal of the Blood Drinker would have made that fairly clear that Games Workshop is trying to curb the raising of such units.

On a sad, side note, the Greedy Fist is legal as per GW:

WARHAMMER ARMIES: OGRE KINGDOMS Official Update Version 2. said:
Q: If a Wizard is hit by a ranged attack from the bearer of the
Greedy Fist, does it lose a Wizard Level? (p62)
A: Yes
 

TMS

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Nov 26, 2008
4,662
Sweden
I'm gonna move this thread over to the rules discussion forum.

[mod]Thread moved.[/mod]
 

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