Little to no ward save?

[MadLarkin]

With both the price and the awesome strength reduction of nightshroud I've found that I usually don't have points for a good ward save instead taking the ogreblade for extra offense. So far I haven't list this lord as he tends to kill anything I point him at (with all the cc vampire goodies). I used to give him talisman of protection but recently decided on the other tricksters shard for an even greater chance of murder.

Does anybody else do this? Nightshroud usually ensures he'll have a decent save. I know his weakness: death/metal magic, units with killing blow en masse, etc. But I've found I can easily mitigate those with positioning and target selection.

What's the thought on a combat lord with no ward save?

 

[Tim]

I have to agree, the few games I played with the new book I didn't have enough points for a ward save on my lord of choice and found in those games it wasn't needed. The fact that a vamp lord has such a high ws and t5 mitigate a lot of damage already, count in nightshroud and beguile he can take a lot of punishment. If he is casting as well he can heal, it's very good.
At first I was a little worried about the 3 wounds but it seems fine as I still have to take a wound on a VL.
Just have to look out for those players with a tooled up guy/unit that is out to get him.

 

[Slaan]

One thing I've been wanting to try is the +1 wound on a vamp lord. I used to use that on my dwarves all the time and it usually paid for itself. Has anyone given that a go? Reason I think it has good play in vamps is because of the methods you have to get back wounds (lore of vamps, the hunger). If you get the +1 wound, that frees up some space for the talisman of preservation on a wight BSB (if you're worried about him).

 

[Johnny-Crass]

+1 wound means no red-fury and IMO Red Fury is the reason to take a vamp.

I was running no ward save but then got KB'd by one lucky tombguard and now I am back to dropping nightshroud and taking 4+ ward

 

[Tawg]

+1 wound means no red-fury and IMO Red Fury is the reason to take a vamp.

I was running no ward save but then got KB'd by one lucky tombguard and now I am back to dropping nightshroud and taking 4+ ward

I'm curious if that is really worth it?

I mean the effects that the shroud add can be rather visible (Losing extra Str from weapons, or striking slower?).

The Ward obviously has it's uses, but in the situation you mentioned, would you really want to risk it all on a 50/50 chance? Is that great enough for you to want it over the more visible effects of the Shroud?

Seems like going with the shroud, and just making sure to keep away from KB, or the likes of things you know will Pwn the lord would be a better choice. At the very least, a 50/50 chance to stop KB still seems a bit weak on such a heavy points sink (I would feel very disappointed/cheated if I was expecting that to save him and it failed). At least without the ward, and playing carefully, I'll know it's my fault that he died to KB instead of getting that 'cheated' feeling of luck :ghost:

Unless your lord is going heavier into casting. Anyone with a chance to Miscast needs a high-er ward save IMO. Miscast can be too brutal to not. But again, with a combat lord, wouldn't you want the ward items on your casters instead (Since you get one per army).

I agree about the +1 wound though, that seems a tad bit pricey, and very hard to rationalize.

 

[Bune]

With both the price and the awesome strength reduction of nightshroud I've found that I usually don't have points for a good ward save instead taking the ogreblade for extra offense. So far I haven't list this lord as he tends to kill anything I point him at (with all the cc vampire goodies). I used to give him talisman of protection but recently decided on the other tricksters shard for an even greater chance of murder.

Does anybody else do this? Nightshroud usually ensures he'll have a decent save. I know his weakness: death/metal magic, units with killing blow en masse, etc. But I've found I can easily mitigate those with positioning and target selection.

What's the thought on a combat lord with no ward save?

i never use ward saves since the night shroud got so good. giving him a 1+ rerollable save with the nightshroud and a lance and tricksters shard makes him a monster.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I still just like the insurance policies that a wardsave provides. That one time you fail you LOS and get punched in the face with a cannon ball nightshroud will not save you, but a wardsave might.

 

[rothgar13]

I would never, ever walk outside without a Ward save. There are too many things out there that straight-up scoff at armor saves, and while T5 negating Strength bonuses is good, it's not infallible.

 

[Tawg]

I still just like the insurance policies that a wardsave provides. That one time you fail you LOS and get punched in the face with a cannon ball nightshroud will not save you, but a wardsave might.

I would never, ever walk outside without a Ward save. There are too many things out there that straight-up scoff at armor saves, and while T5 negating Strength bonuses is good, it's not infallible.

Eh, I feel safe enough that my opponent won't be training their cannon on my general in a unit, as long as I have terrifying things to distract them (Flank/War Machine Hunters are expressly for this purpose right?).

Although certainly things ignore armor a lot, and heavens save you if someone uses Lore of Metal on that Vampire lol. But even still, I don't think it's that bad of a choice. And hell, some of the things that ignore armor will be ignoring ward saves as well (Those instant kill Vortexes? Jeesus) and I still feel like putting a ward save on him would just make me feel cheated when he fails and dies anyways :ghost:

 

[rothgar13]

Nuke spells are something I'm more comfortable with being vulnerable to than high-Strength attacks. There are a heck of a lot more ways to get the latter than there are for the former (only 3 of them, which you can only fail on a 6, and 2 of them allow Look out Sir! rolls).

 

[Kaptain Von]

In an effort to keep Lord Ruthven's cost down to 375 or less so I can field him in 1500 point games, I've found myself with nothing but some armour, the Nightshroud and the Ironcurse Icon betwixt him and the wide world. Haven't had the chance to give him a test run yet, but we'll see how it goes...

 

[Johnny-Crass]

My empire list runs 3 cannons 3 mortars and 2 steamtanks. Trust me when I say warmachine hunters will not do their job well enough to warrant not taking a ward

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Also death sniping spells

 

[Lyracian]

I could see taking the Nightshroud, +1 Str Sword and 5+ Ward rather than the 4+ Ward but I would not want to send my Lord out without at least some protection.

 

[rothgar13]

Yeah, Death sniping spells will make for some tense moments when your Vampire has no Ward save.

 

[The Dread King]

Those nuke vortexes-there are more of them in army-book specific lores.
Besides, if you can't afford a ward, and if you don't like armour, go for regeneration. It's a no-brainer! Several mortis engines and/or the seed of rebirth and/or strigoi general and you could have 4+ regen easliy. SGK only needs a mortis engine to back him up, but a vampire lord with two mortis engines and seed of rebirth can get the 4+ regen too! What's more, those nuke spells and cannon shots will spend lots of the game going after those mortis engines instead of your general.
It's not hard to avoid flaming attacks.
The easiest way to deal with this problem is to have Heinrich Kemmler in a big unit, make him ethereal (he can become ethereal), have a necro in a bunker behind him, and have a mortis engine (or two or even three!) to his left or right; that way he's getting ethereal and at least a 6+ regeneration. Cannon shots will most likely b aimed at the engines or something big, who's gonna go after some puny necromancer. They have to be runed to even touch him, and that's assuming he fails his 2+ look out, sir! If they're not flaming, then your regen may save him. Killing blow will usually pass through him, unless its a magic weapon, but if you put Krell with him, Krell's challenge rule will mean that this tooled up character will probably end up in challenge mincemeat where he can't touch Heinrich.
When it looks like there's no excape from an incoming tooled up character, Heinrich can fly out of his unit and join another (can you leave a unit and join a unit in the same turn?; I think you can).Worrying about miscasts, Kemmler's regen should protect him, but you'll have to be careful not to miscast.
I think that Kemmler is particularly survivable; he doesn't need a ward save.
You could do a similar thing with Mannfred in bigger games; two mortis engines, 5 wounds and movement 6: also he can probably kill that tooled up character in combat anyway.

 

[Undead Teapot]

+1 wound means no red-fury and IMO Red Fury is the reason to take a vamp.

I was running no ward save but then got KB'd by one lucky tombguard and now I am back to dropping nightshroud and taking 4+ ward

This is the main reason I always have at least a 5+ward on my vampire lord. I haven't tried out the Nightshroud item as much as I would like though. I'm liking Lyracian's set up with his lord, I will try that out next time and see how I like it.

 

[bobajelly]

The budget protection I use on my Lord is Seed of Rebirth with a Mortis Engine nearby. He also has the dragon helm. So a 3+ armour and 5+ regen (regen bonus included) aint bad for only a small proportion of his spending cap.

 

[chefsdad]

I would consider not warding my lord if he's pure caster. I feel like i can protect him enough with a bunker.

If its combat, then i will never, ever leave without 4+ ward. Killing blow, naturally high strength characters/units/monsters, armour negating weapons/spells/abilities, potion of strength...just so many ways to get around a high armour save.

He's not only a large points investment, but he becomes your main source of killing power. In a competitive environment (i.e. All Comers list writing) a ward save is a must i reckon.


Just my 2 pence.

 

[Burnanation]

I run my uber killy VL without a ward. He does end up with a 2+ armor save. Yes a cannon ball would be a very bad day but... it might not.

While a ward save could really save your bacon, I tend to avoid picking up items that require the enemy to hit me to be useful.

 

[bobajelly]

If its Killing Blow you want to avoid try taking the trickster's helm. Force re-rolls on all to-wounds and suddenly your survival per killing blow goes up from a 50/50 (with 4+ ward) to a 5/6 for each KB wound (because he has to re-roll a 6 for that to get it through). Plus, if the opponent takes the other trickster's shard, your survival drops a bit further again.

This doesnt really defend you against any other kind of one-shot attack though but still worth considering.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

If its Killing Blow you want to avoid try taking the trickster's helm. Force re-rolls on all to-wounds and suddenly your survival per killing blow goes up from a 50/50 (with 4+ ward) to a 5/6 for each KB wound (because he has to re-roll a 6 for that to get it through).

Yes but if they wound you on a 4+ or 5+ it can increase the chance of killingblow for them!

 

[bobajelly]

If its Killing Blow you want to avoid try taking the trickster's helm. Force re-rolls on all to-wounds and suddenly your survival per killing blow goes up from a 50/50 (with 4+ ward) to a 5/6 for each KB wound (because he has to re-roll a 6 for that to get it through).

Yes but if they wound you on a 4+ or 5+ it can increase the chance of killingblow for them!

Aha indeed! Silly oversight by me.

Honestly tho, Im just digging for a reason to take the tricksters helm coz when compared to the nightshroud...its just crap.

A 4+ ward save is an expensive investment but one that can more than double your Lord's survivability (can really dampen multi-wound attacks and KB).

I'm still in favor for getting cheap boosted regen with a the heinous dragonbane ward save to cover it if the enemy is feeling tricky. Sadly, the seed of rebirth/mortis plan just serves to make the poor mortis engine an even bigger target of grief.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

On a note on Tricksters Helm I am loving it on a wight king and just using him as a punching bag kind of:lol:

 

[Chucknorris]

Im still deciding on what i use for my lord.

For me its either Nightshroud, and 5+ ward talisman, dragonhelm, 1S sword, red fury quickblood

OR

Nightshroud, dragonhelm, 2S sword, red fury, quickblood, ironcurse icon.

I run both choices with heavy armour and shield ofc so i have 2+ normal save.
Both choices are roughly the same points, but i still think that the first option is the best choice. Option 1 gives me 5 s6 attacks, AND 5+ ward save (+2 ward vs flaming). While the second option gives 5 s7 attacks and no ward save at all (apart from parry save, and 6+ ward vs warmachines, 2+ ward vs flaming).


Ur thoughts on both choices?

ps: my first post =D