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LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Rare

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Uziel

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#26
Disciple of Nagash said:
Bone Thrower - I am liking the idea of lower multiple strength shots, something a tad different. Perhaps it could be something like as standard the bones have runes that cause them to shatter in the air, raining down D3+1 S4 / S5 shots? The upgrade could then be a massive bone :)perv:), that is a one shot with the HKB rule?
Sounds good to me.

Probably S4, Armour Piercing & Killing Blow, and then Multiple Shot (3), magical shots ( could just call it something like Lesser Death Runes to separate it from the Greater Death Runes (i.e. the Heroic Killing Blow Shot). No piercings of Ranks like a "Bolth Thrower", Perhaps a Range of 36" only, and no to hit penalty for range as you already had.
That would mean, that on average (if multiple shots were fired), you'd get one S4, -2 armour save, magical, killing blow hit.
Magical Shots would help give Nagash a tactical edge over his former underlings, the vampire counts s well.. A nice way to teach them a lesson :tongue:

Btw, I imagine that there must be some model making company that manufactures a two-man crewed type roman ballista out there somewhere as well.. If so, that's always a plus..

We're not supposed to be a missile heavy army, but this would keep the cost down, which would be good if a Horde Type army is the tactical "theme" that the LoN project is going for overall.
 

The Dread King

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#27
I think that mantic does some kind of undead warmachine on the kings of war section... Will post up the souleaters soon with justifying fluff and non-ethereal mounts tonight.
 

Uziel

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#28
Dreadking:

The mantic one is a small catapult, which is also something I think should be considered for the Legion. It is obvious that Nagash used Catapult from the fluff, and the LoN army is essentially one of the more aggressive ones as well, in the sense that defending Nagasshizzar is not something that happens very often to say the least. Nagash is more than smart enough to know that mounting a campaign with little or no chance to knock a wall down is a tactical blunder of, well, lets just call them pretty big proportions...


Did some looking for a "proper" sized ballista, but it seems it is only sold as a part of this set (as far as I've seen this far at least). Some of the Mantic ones (Elves I think it was) could also be doable, with a new paint job and some fixes.. Stil la bit too big though, but that's a small issue really.
http://www.sierratoysoldier.com/ourstore/pc/Might-of-Rome-c600.htm

btw, thought you had some good campaign ideas for the future.

DoN:

After thinking about it, I don't think Nagash's armies need more than two cavalry units as such, the pinnacle knights and some sort of light/medium skeleton cav, like those Arkhan led in the wars vs. Nehekhara. The Pinnacle Knights are quite formiddable after all, and the other option could include short bows, spears, heavy armour, no barding, which would make them pretty tactically usefull, especially if Seletons were a little better WS and BS-wise in the LoN list than in the VC/TK lists.

Maybe a Monstrous Beast regiment is the way to go, like the Scarabe/Spider Engines Nagash designed and used vs the Skaven in the mines. Not to hard to find suitable models for I would guess, and there are not that many Monstrous Beast Units in the game either (mostly monstrous Infantry).
 

The Dread King

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#29
Here is the fluff for the souleaters:
There was once a tribe that lived in the barren place that was yet to become Nagashizzar. The tribe's name has been forgotten, but what came forth from it are dreaded by all: the first of the souleaters. Members of the tribe barely survived as there was little food, only seaweed from a faraway river and fish, thus the landscape around the tribe had no animals with one exception; the deadly cobras that haunted the riverbanks. Warriors of the tribe used to go out to the riverbanks and hunt these beasts for their flesh. They repaid the cobras by tying unworthy members to poles and leaving them there to be devoured by the cobras. When the sun rose, the tribe elders always saw that the tributes had been eaten. Some of the elders even tamed the cobras with human flesh until the cobras became their mounts. With protective charms woven into the flesh of man and beasts alike, the elders and the mounts were protected from dark magic. When the giant chunk of warpstone crashed, destroying all of the tribes villages, most of these talismans were overpowered by the warpstone and their wearers destroyed. But some kept their wearers alive in a strange kind of way; the most powerful of the elders and their mounts returned from the other side of death as horrible parodies of themselves. Even as they were preserved, vast amounts of warpstone seeped into their systems, corrupting their minds and warping their bodies. Their souls were consumed by the hungering magical rock. When Nagash arrived, the souleaters were drawn to his power and worshipped him as a god. Seeing how he could use these creatures, Nagash manipulated events and they now serve him; some even on their foul cobras. Examining one in a fould laboratory, he realised, with great pleasure, that he could create his own from humans by infusing their bodies with excess dark magic and inscribing the protective symbols on them that the ancient tribe used. To this day, tales are told of vile liches and foul necrarchs taking prisoners of war, those who betray Nagash and innocents into laboratory and, after several hours, ravenous souleaters emerging from them with the evil liches. Even now, those who listen carefully and go too close to the cursed pit can hear the howl of rage and hurt omitted by a souleater who has been cheated of its humanity. The souleaters march to war no longer under an idol, but under the great Necromancer. As they lost their souls, their warpstone counterparts now make them hunger for the souls of others; these creatures consume the souls of their enemies with ravenous energy; but alas, their appetite is never sated.
I'll only post the profiles if you think that the fluff's justified. The dead cobras don't have to be ethereal. The souleaters could be represented by some converted cobras with bloodletters- these models would have to be given a peculiar paintjob.
Uziel: games workshop think of most monstrous beasts as mounts. Just look at the orcs and goblins army book-gigantic spiders.
 

Uziel

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#30
The Dreadking:

"Cobra -riders" are already featured in the TK list, so you wouldn't have to convert much as far as the cobra's themselves go, or maybe it was these models you already had in mind for a conversion job?

Having a bit of a problem really accepting them for the reason that it brings the army a step closer to the TK one, but you may still manage to convince me though, although it is a bit of a hard sell I must say.

Fluff-wise, it was pretty good though, although I wondered a bit how those cobras got so huge in a land with next to no prey, since feeding on humans is not typically a cobra thing to do (a size issue I imagine)..
 

The Dread King

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#31
Have you seen the size of the tomb king cobras? They could eat humans easily, so why couldn't other cobras do just the same? As the cobras lived by the rivers, they could catch a lot of fish. And they could eat human flesh-after all, this is warhammer, not science! Give an animal an excuse and it'll be devouring humans! The idea is that when the warpstone hit, the cobras' bodies were warped, and so the creatures grew in size. I suppose that the beasts, instead of cobras, could be bears or wolves that got turned giant by the warpstone instead.
Any suggestions for beasts that could be mounts of tribe elders and also turn massive after some warpstone hit them? They'd be monstrous cavalry mounts? Or are cobras fine? Or should these creatures just be big things in general; like abbsyal terrors (i.e. these monstrous cavalry mounts would vary in appearances since they had started off as different animals that had been warped into large shapes by the warpstone). Lol, the cretures could even be warped fish that had turned giant and grown large teeth and legs!
 

Chaos_Born

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#32
I think people are getting too hung up on the availability of miniatures. In my eyes that shouldn't be a factor, since any situation that you would use the army list in would be colloquial enough that some proxies would be fine. If eventually you want to go the whole hog and have a whole painted LoN army, then surely such a labour of love is worth the effort of conversions. For this reason the units should be fluff driven first, then once the army is sorted then models should be thought about.

Back to the topic of the replacement rare unit. If you want to steer away from ethereal cav because it is too similar to hexwraiths, then having guys riding cobras is far too reminiscent of tomb kings. I like the idea of the monstrous cav, but maybe creating another race of people to ride them is kind of excessive. I always thought that more of an identity could be created around the favoured ones-perhaps they should be give the monstrous mounts. Or they could even be the handlers of some monstrous creature that lives around Nagashizzar. I don't have any fully formed ideas yet, just chucking that into the mix.
 

Uziel

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#33
Off course I have seen the models and I agree that they could eat humans easily, but they'd had to become big enough to do that in the first place (which normal cobras don't do), and my point was that in such a barren land as you described, this seemed a bit unlikely, unless the humans there continuously feed them chopped up bits of humans that is.
I had to google the fish-eating btw, but it seems that snakes do sometimes eat fish, but I imagine the bigger and slower the snake gets, the more difficult this will be for them to catch small (and quicker) prey in water.
The warpstone idea is a possibility, there is no denying that, but it does beg the question of why only the snakes grew in size (unstable magic typically being a bit random effect-wise). Some small modifications to the fluff in that regard could perhaps be included.

I agree that there are lots of possibilities as to what could have been warped over time, but it can be a little strange to combine them in one unit if they vary too much (or if it would seem like they would have had very varied stats and so on).
It is a bit of a conundrum to really find something which really fits well in a Monstrous Cavalry department, but even though I think the snake idea is a bit close to the TK ones, I still think it is the best one so far, especially since there are so few Monstrous Cavalry models to base any conversions on.
 

Chaos_Born

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#34
Perhaps some sort of great bat riders. More original, and they're alive (ish) so would need riders rather than just being controlled by necromantic energy. As I have expressed it would also be cool to have favoured ones riding them so that they have more of an identity in the army.
 

Uziel

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#35
Chaos_Born said:
I think people are getting too hung up on the availability of miniatures. In my eyes that shouldn't be a factor, since any situation that you would use the army list in would be colloquial enough that some proxies would be fine. If eventually you want to go the whole hog and have a whole painted LoN army, then surely such a labour of love is worth the effort of conversions. For this reason the units should be fluff driven first, then once the army is sorted then models should be thought about.
Personally, and I realize that I might not share this opinion with everyone mind you, I think that IF the unit can be at least somewhat accurately represented by an existing model (does not have to be a GW one), or can be relatively easily converted to fit the bill from some other model, than this is a huge boon to the project. Not everyone are good at making stuff from scratch for one thing, and also there is a time/cost issue involved, which can quickly make people shun away from bothering to play the LoN list.
But, this comes down a bit to what the final vision for the project is more than anything. If it is being designed for just a handful of people here on the site, then it doesn't matter that much if models are a consideration or not admittedly.
If the LoN project got to the stage that is was more of an accepted home-made army (not talking tournaments here), then it would be nice if people could use their existing models to represent the majority of it more easily.
 

Uziel

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#36
Chaos_Born said:
Perhaps some sort of great bat riders. More original, and they're alive (ish) so would need riders rather than just being controlled by necromantic energy. As I have expressed it would also be cool to have favoured ones riding them so that they have more of an identity in the army.
I think the "ish" is a key factor here. hehe
Ridden Flying units are not that common in the game, so you might be on to something here. The Ghoul/Bat theme is also well established.
We also have models for it, although I must say that the current Fell Bats are a bit small for this role, it would still be an acceptable solution. Maybe some other range has some better/larger bats that could have been used. Gw's are butt ugly, and damned expensive as well. Alternately, the Carrion bird couldbe used, as this is well established in the Nagash fluff of old. It is also a bit larger.
There is probably a lot of Strogoi Ghoul Kings from the Terrorgheist kit floating around on eBay, which could be used for the riders come to think of it.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#37
How about going back to the 4th edition Carrion?

We have a Greater Carrion in this list, and I quite liked the concept of the 4th edition Carrion.

We could tweak the concept:

In the peaks around Nagashizzar, many Carrion lived in their heights, feeding on the many dead of the surrounding lands. As time went on, the vast magicks used by the Great Necromancer affected the creatures of the air as well as the land, twisted and warping their bodies. It was not their bodies that were just twisted however, their small minds were driven mad with bloodlust, and soon the degenerate humans around the Sour Sea came to fear their shadow.

Seeing the creatures he had wrought, Nagash was pleased. Such powerful creatures would be a worthy addition to his forces, however in his darkness the Liche wanted more. To exert his influence over them, he bound into the Carrion's body spiteful spirits. Those that were murderous and bloodthirsty whilst alive, took on a new life as the unseen riders of the Carrion. Whispering to the already insane mind of the Carrion, they drive them to greater heights of bloodletting. As more and more die by the spirits urging, so their own strength grows until they can do lash out and partake of the culling.

Spirit Riders - ?? pts per model

Unit size: 3-10

Giant Carrion M 2 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W 3 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 8

Equipment:
Beak and Claws (Counts as hand weapon)

Options:
None

Special Rules:
Nagashi Undead
Frenzy
Fly

Spirit Rider
The more the Carrion kills, the stronger the residing spirit gets until it lashes it our fusillade of death.
For each unsaved wound the carrion causes in combat, the residing spirit may also attack. Once you have resolved all the Carrion's attacks, the Spirit Rider may attack. The Spirit rider gets the same number of attacks as per the number of unsaved wounds caused by the carrion to the enemy, attacking as per the following:
1 wound: The spirits additional attack are as per the base stats of the Giant Carrion
2 wounds: The spirits additional attacks use the base stats of the Giant Carrion, but in addition may re-roll to hit.
3+ wounds: The spirits additional attacks use the base stats of the Giant Carrion, but in addition may re-roll to hit and benefit from the Killing Blow special rule.

All attacks made by the spirit riders count as magical attacks. The number of wounds counted to work out the above is reset at the end of each round of combat.


Thoughts?
 

Uziel

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#38
Disciple of Nagash said:
Thoughts?
Believe it or not, I had actually forgotten that the old carrion had a miniature rider on top. hehe

My first thoughts are that this could be a good idea, as it is rather fitting that when his armies do march, that they dominate the skies, but the unit seems a bit powerful (S5, 3A +Frenzy +Riders possibly even more powerful attack. This would make them very expensive, and I'd rather see a larger less powerful flock of them on the table.

The normal Carrion (S4) would be a step in the "right" direction, and I really don't think Frenzy is needed or justified if they are undead (get the unbreakable/no psychology/unstable rules). Everything that was bloodthirsty doesn't have to translate into frenzy in game terms after all. a Strength of 4, would make the TK Carrion model more fitting as a mount as well, as I assume the Giant Carrion would have to be a little larger ideally.

The attacks of the rider was perhaps a bit complicated, and if the rider's attacks are based on the successful attacks of the Carrion, then it would rarely matter if they were magical or not, since magical attacks now have very few properties, except for being able to wound ethereal etc. If the Carrion can't wound a Ethereal, then there would be no attacks from the rider that magical attacks would apply too.

With a unit size of 3-10, I am assuming that a flock of them is the goal here, but that really can't be accomplished without reducing each one considerably.. As it stands now, each Carrion (with rider) is potentially more dangerous than a Varghulf..
I am on board with the idea that the unit should be more dangerous than Fell bats/TK Carrions however, but the challenge is to still keep them balanced as far as points go etc.
I'm assuming that this is a Special Choice after all, but correct me if I'm wrong. :)
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#39
This is actually a rare choice, a monstrous choice in the lines of Vargheists and Crypt Horrors, hence the statline.

I'll answer your response more in depth when I am at home, but it is along those lines I am thinking, not fellbats / pegasus riders etc
 

Uziel

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#40
Disciple of Nagash said:
This is actually a rare choice, a monstrous choice in the lines of Vargheists and Crypt Horrors, hence the statline.

I'll answer your response more in depth when I am at home, but it is along those lines I am thinking, not fellbats / pegasus riders etc
Ok, I see. As a Rare choice the stats and so on makes more sense indeed. I just assumed it was a Special Choice (based on the old tiny Carrion model and all), and since unit type and point cost was not mentioned, Forgot the tread heading there for a moment, and I assumed wrong. Yes, I know what they say about making assumptions. hehe
Most of my last post doesn't really apply since this is not what you intended then.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#41
Ok, well in that case what do you think of the unit as a monstrous rare?

They are meant to be giant mutant carrion, with the murderous spirits urging them. :devil2:

Right, so to redo the Ancient Warrior:

Ancient Warrior - ??? pts
This golem like creation is one of the most feared when the Legion marches to war. Standing taller than a ogre, this monster is made of fused bone and metal in the effigy of ancient warriors. However what makes it so deadly is manner in which it is animated. It is not just instilled a singular purpose or even a soul of a warrior. Instead its creator captures of the souls of the most skilled fighters, either by killing those who risk venturing to Nagashizzar or stealing them from the realm of Morr. Using the twisted of the necromantic arts, the poor souls are forced into one, all emotions are stripped away and only the knowledge of how to deal death remains.
Such a potent creation requires constant supervision less the bound souls try to rebel, but it is a small price to pay for the unstoppable power of the Ancient Warrior.


With Controller Alive
M 4 / WS 8 / BS 0 / S 6 / T 5 / W 8 / I 8 / A 5 (6) / LD 10

With Controller Dead
M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W * / I 4 / A 2 (3) / LD 5

Equipment
Two Hand Weapons
Nagashi Armour

Special Rules

Undead

Forgotten Lore
The warrior has knowledge of martial techniques forgotten may years ago.
At the start of combat phase in the owing players turn, the Ancient Warrior may choose one of the following skills. The skill lasts until the start of the combat phase in the next Legion of Nagash turn:

*Decapitator: Benefits from the Killing Blow special rule.
*Power Strike: May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow. If the enemy is immune to the Killing Blow special rule, they suffer D6 wounds on a roll of 6 to wound instead.
*Counterstrike: For each enemy attack directed at the Ancient Warrior that fails to hit, the Ancient Warrior may make one attack. Resolve the enemies attacks first before resolving the Ancient Warriors additional attacks.


Controller
For the warrior to work at its optimum it must have a controller. Before the game starts, nominate one caster who is not the army's general (if there is no such model, then the Ancient Warrior cannot be used). This model is then the Ancient Warrior's controller for this battle. The controller and ancient do not have to stay near each other and operate as normal.

Whilst the both controller and ancient are alive the following applies:
*The controller may not add their magic level when attempting to cast or dispel.
Ancient has the following benefits
*Uses the top profile
*May march move as per the BRB
*Regeneration
*Always Strikes First
*Immune to Killing Blow
*Magic Resistance (3) against enemy spells only
*Forgotten Lore as detailed above

If the Controller dies the Ancient loses all the above abilities, and uses the lower profile. In regards to the wounds, halve the remaining amount rounding *down*, this will mean if it has only one wound when the controller dies, the Ancient will die as well. The Ancient also suffers from Crumbling as if the general has died (NB - The general dying has no effect on the Ancient)
If the Ancient dies the controller may the add their magical level when attempting to cast or dispel as normal.
 

The Dread King

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#42
Can't the spirit riders be souleaters? I don't see how the spirits would be able to ride the non-ethereal carrion; I think that souleaters (the rider part) are a bit more fluff justified than spiteful spirits.
The table you used could still be used; as the souleater grew more powerful from the souls that it had eaten!
I don't mind if the riders are spirits, though.
Maybe there could be two units? Souleaters and carrion?
Or was the souleater idea a bit rubbish? It could be warped lions instead of warped cobras. I'll make some justifying fluff if you want.
 

Uziel

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#43
Disciple of Nagash said:
Ok, well in that case what do you think of the unit as a monstrous rare?

They are meant to be giant mutant carrion, with the murderous spirits urging them. :devil2:

Right, so to redo the Ancient Warrior:

Ancient Warrior - ??? pts
This golem like creation is one of the most feared when the Legion marches to war. Standing taller than a ogre, this monster is made of fused bone and metal in the effigy of ancient warriors. However what makes it so deadly is manner in which it is animated. It is not just instilled a singular purpose or even a soul of a warrior. Instead its creator captures of the souls of the most skilled fighters, either by killing those who risk venturing to Nagashizzar or stealing them from the realm of Morr. Using the twisted of the necromantic arts, the poor souls are forced into one, all emotions are stripped away and only the knowledge of how to deal death remains.
Such a potent creation requires constant supervision less the bound souls try to rebel, but it is a small price to pay for the unstoppable power of the Ancient Warrior.


With Controller Alive
M 4 / WS 8 / BS 0 / S 6 / T 5 / W 8 / I 8 / A 5 (6) / LD 10

With Controller Dead
M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W * / I 4 / A 2 (3) / LD 5

Equipment
Two Hand Weapons
Nagashi Armour

Special Rules

Undead

Forgotten Lore
The warrior has knowledge of martial techniques forgotten may years ago.
At the start of combat phase in the owing players turn, the Ancient Warrior may choose one of the following skills. The skill lasts until the start of the combat phase in the next Legion of Nagash turn:

*Decapitator: Benefits from the Killing Blow special rule.
*Power Strike: May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow. If the enemy is immune to the Killing Blow special rule, they suffer D6 wounds on a roll of 6 to wound instead.
*Counterstrike: For each enemy attack directed at the Ancient Warrior that fails to hit, the Ancient Warrior may make one attack. Resolve the enemies attacks first before resolving the Ancient Warriors additional attacks.


Controller
For the warrior to work at its optimum it must have a controller. Before the game starts, nominate one caster who is not the army's general (if there is no such model, then the Ancient Warrior cannot be used). This model is then the Ancient Warrior's controller for this battle. The controller and ancient do not have to stay near each other and operate as normal.

Whilst the both controller and ancient are alive the following applies:
*The controller may not add their magic level when attempting to cast or dispel.
Ancient has the following benefits
*Uses the top profile
*May march move as per the BRB
*Regeneration
*Always Strikes First
*Immune to Killing Blow
*Magic Resistance (3) against enemy spells only
*Forgotten Lore as detailed above

If the Controller dies the Ancient loses all the above abilities, and uses the lower profile. In regards to the wounds, halve the remaining amount rounding *down*, this will mean if it has only one wound when the controller dies, the Ancient will die as well. The Ancient also suffers from Crumbling as if the general has died (NB - The general dying has no effect on the Ancient)
If the Ancient dies the controller may the add their magical level when attempting to cast or dispel as normal.
As A Rare Choice, S5 is fine, No objections, and I think it is rather fitting. As long as the unit doesn't give us too much of a TK feel too it, I think it is good.

Still don't like the Frenzy though. If they are Undead (and get the benefits from this), I think Frenzy should be beyond them as this requires a certain mental state. Don't like the way this would affect them tactically either. Nagash has nearly always preferred to have complete control of all things (which is why he want's everyone dead and all), so I don't personally think uncontrollable units (Frenzy) fit too well. It is perfectly acceptable to be murderous and so forth, without actually being Frenzied.

The part that I'm perhaps not really sold on are the Spirit Riders. I agree with Dreadking that Ethereals and non-ethereals don't really mix very well on the same model. I think maybe the local "ghouls/favoured ones/Yaghur" around Cripple Peak using them for steeds is perhaps a little better. n this case though (the favoured ones) are Alive If I remember correctly, and If they do somehow control the Carrion, then the unit should probably not count as Undead either, i.e. allowing the Unit to march, take normal charge reactions, subject to psychology, etc, etc.. With a typical low "ghoul" LD, this could hep bring the cost down a bit.

As far as The Ancient Warrior goes, I think he is coming along. I did notice a few things though:

-add Unit Type: Monstrous Infantry (I assume from his description)

-If he is Monstrous Infantry, his Immune to Killing Blow can be removed, because Killing Blow doesn't work on Monstrous Infantry in any case

-For a Monstrous Infantry model, I think he has a bit too high a WS stat (with controller alive), and the same goes for Initiative. It won't really matter how many great warrior spirits you put into the same body, as it is still a completely unfamiliar body for them to control and so on. I think perhaps WS 7 (similar to Kurt Helborg in the empire book (one of the most skilled humans alive) and an Initiative of 5 would be more fitting (even that might be a bit high). As he also has Always Strikes first, this also means a re-roll to hit in nearly all cases with WS/I 8 in 8.ed, an effect that shouldn't be underestimated.

-I would consider reducing his wounds to 5 or 6 instead of 8. He is after all just a Monstrous Infantry model I assume, and even even Large Monsters rarely go up that high. I'd rather compensate a bit with an armour save or a ward save.

-The Power Strike is incredibly powerful (not saying he shouldn't have it, just that the implications of it should be reflected in his points). 3 Heroic Killing Blow attacks/turn is unheard of in the rules so far, and with 8 wounds, he is almost guaranteed to hang around to kill whatever he is fighting. It is a bit of a scary combination... I'd also remove the exception rule for those Immune to Heroic Killing Blow to it. If someone has this (and I don't think I've even seen that in 8.ed yet), I'd assume they have this for a very good reason.

-Counterstrike: If he is a bigger model than originally, with WS 8, this means that he could potentially get 20 (5x4) spear attacks against him, all hitting on 5+.. This means he will get to return some 13-14 attacks using his own stats (and perhaps with a quickblood re-roll?), in addition to his original six, which could mean a total of 20 kills in one turn of close combat..

-He is incredibly good at taking on Monsters and Characters, but perhaps even more so when it comes to taking on Regiments. I'm not really seeing much in the form of weaknesses in him which a good enemy player can exploit. An empire army with a battery of cannons could take him out, but not many armies have those kinds of weapons available too them.
I know he is controlled, and I love the no bonus to casting/dispelling touch, but let's face it, with no control range limit, and all the additional spells in the army (rituals of Nagash), and the Lord most likely doing the dispelling anyway, I'm not convinced this is as big a weakness as it might first appear.

-Not really sure why he has regeneration, especially if he's not made from any "living" material. Don't really see him being that vulnerable to flaming weapons and such either, based on the description. 8 Wounds and regeneration makes him about as tough as a steam tank..

-Magic Resistance (3) is now changed in 8ed, so I don't really see what more is needed than just that. Don't see the fluff justification from this though. Also, Magical Resistance (3) is very rare, even on the mythological side (ref: Unicorns).

-I think he should loose ASF if he is a Monstrous Infantry model. This is also an ability which vastly improves all his other abilities, i.e it makes all his forgotten Lore Abilities much more powerfull than they first appear. I think that if he had the speed of a Blood Knight (I 5), that would represent the ancient warrior spirits within really well. It is a reason that Ogres (and most other Monstrous Infantry as well) don't often have such high Initiative.

Don't get me wrong DoN, I'm on board with the fluff, and I like the controller idea, but I think he is too much of a powerhouse in my opinion, as there are nearly no way you can get an "edge" vs.him (and remember, you opponent HAS to take into account that he might appear every time, even though he doesn't have to). If you think the Hydra and the Abomination are hated in the game, I assure you that this thing would be even more so...
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#44
An idea that could work for the ancient warrior (to make it a bit toned down) could be that the additional abilities granted by the controller (ASF, regen etc) would need to be given by the controller in the form of casting a spell. So the controller of the ancient warrior would know one spell in addition to its others that would go something like-casts on X+, grants ancient warrior under it's control ASF and the forgotten lore special rule. Boosted version casts on Y+, also grants regeneration and magic resistance 3.

As for the WS8 I think that is justified as an ogre tyrant is like 7, and this guy could outclass him (in my mind). However the initiative thing is a good point. If he is a golem of bone and rock, then it's going to be heavy and therefore sluggish. Even then with the skill of many grand masters of combat I5/6 is still a good bet.

Maybe a way around the heroic killing blow issue is to just make power strike into D3/D6 wounds a pop on all successful wounds. This way he is still smashing up monsters, but he isn't using the controversially powerful rule that is HKB.

Lastly, I love the counterstrike rule but it is rather overpowered. Perhaps it only taking effect on enemy rolls of 1 to hit? Or maybe making the attacks back weaker in some way. I really want it to stay in, but as Uziel says, it will shred infantry.

I don't think any of the rules should be dropped, after all they are very cool and fluff justified, but they do need toning down if you want the points to be low enough to ever field him.


On another topic, love the idea of the angry spirits taking control of the carrion. Don't see any problem with them fluff wise and the rules are very cool. Points estimate?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#45
Spirit Riders - I perhaps should have made this clearer. The "rider" is just a name, it does not mean they actually ride on the back of the Carrion. Basically the Carrion themselves are big mutated versions of the carrion, whose original lust for flesh in life has been twisted. To make them deadlier and also control them better, they are infused / possessed by a murderous spirit. It is inside, not on its back.
It them influences the Carrions already deranged mind to kill more, and as the Carrion does so, the power of death grants strength to the spirit, allowing it to temporarily lash out and join in the fun.

Frenzy - yes ok I can see that point. The spirit should be a controlling factor, so we could remove this.

Ancient Warrior: My concept for this unit, was when "powered up" was to be an unstoppable, self-repairing unit of death. The controller is not just controlling him, he is actively and constantly supplying a power source. It is this energy that grants it the regeneration, the speed etc.

WS: It has the combined skills of a multitude of warriors over many years. In many ways it should be more skilled that one human.

Power Strike: Yes I can see your reasoning there. The original rules had this reduce to one attack, but then that was questioned whether it was worthwhile? Perhaps reduce to one attack which can re-roll to hit and wound? Drop the multi wound effect.

Counterstrike: Yeah, I have got to admit that this was way over the top. How about any enemy to-hit rolls that result in a 1?

Weakness: He had a bigger impact with reduction of magic previously. Perhaps a drain of D3 PD each Legion magic phase - justify his powered up abilities?

ASF: Again, I think this is valid with the controller.


I think it is more a case of finding a downside of the controller. Perhaps even that the controller cannot cast or dispel whilst controlling the Ancient Warrior?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#46
I would really prefer to hold of on this thread. And move forward in a logical order (like we have done in the past).

Army Rules / List
Core
Basic Characters
Specials
Rare
Spells
Magic Items
Special Characters

(or something to that effect at least).

Instead of jumping around all over the place.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#47
DoN:

Yea, I thought you meant it had a spirit rider, something like he old carrion models, only bigger off course. :)
But still ,the fluff is the same, and its good I think.
They are "Monstrous Beasts" right?
As a Rare choice, I think we are on to something potentially good here. My only two remaining concerns are:

-That people will find it a bit too TK like, even though it is a Rare choice etc. Personally I don't think "Carrion" really screams TK (at least not that loudly), so I'm on board with it. Geographically, they fit well too.

-I think the Spirit Rider special rule needs simplification, especially as we're not only dealing with one model her, but a unit. It needs to be a rule that is not so time consuming to use on a unit-basis. Maybe something like the old Bone Giant used to have? It might still have it (my book is upstairs at the moment...)

The Ancient Warrior

I understand your vision of him DoN, and there is nothing wrong with the idea or fluff. As I've said, I quite like him, but we can't loose ourselves in the fluff and forget that it is a game when it is all said and done. I think you're quite good at writing fluff btw, something which is not my strong suit (I suck even more at painting miniatures though).

One of the issues with the Ancient Warrior is that honestly I don't really know what to compare him with game-wise. He has many stats and special rules commonly only found on Large Monsters etc (even when he was a normal Infantry model).
It was most definitively correct to increase his stature, but I still feel he is to "tiny" to justify the combination of T5, 8 W, and armour save and Regeneration. VS. S3 troops, he is much harder to kill than a Steam Tank (which don't really have that much of an offensive strength to go with its toughness).
If he's Monstrous Infantry sized, I actually think Thanquols Boneripper would be a good comparison, or perhaps the best we can come up with at least.

That said, nothing Ogre-sized is ever going to be unstoppable game-wise, as there will always be someone bigger that should be able to stomp him so to speak (on that issue, don't forget that if he's a monstrous infantry model, he's got a Stomp attack as well), especially Large Targets.

I do think it is perfectly possible to make him into the "death-machine" you envision him to become, but I think some fundamental changes are needed to balance this out (without him costing 400+ points at least).

First of though, let me just run through the last comments and ideas:

-On the WS issue, my hesitation here is on the basis if these spirits not really controlling their own bodies, and also that he has other stats which makes it more natural to compare him with the Large Monsters of the game, not the Monstrous Infantry. Combined with the ASF, and extreme Initiative for his (new) size, he's not just "a little" better than the best humans ever (and this also assumes that the summoner somehow has had access to the spirits of numerous of these quite spectacular human beings). No living human have had 5 attacks either for that matter /6 with the additional hand weapon), but that is on Vampire Lord/Chaos Lord level...

-Powerstrike: I quite like the idea of one accurate power-strike to be honest. Even if it was not used, people would really think twice before getting to close with any large monster (or any characters for that matter). I'd perhaps specify that he could still Stomp afterwards even if he used this attack. :thumbsup:

-Counterstrike: Quite like Chaos_Born's idea here to be honest. Fluffy, and it really gives you the impression that the Ancient Warrior can always find a weakness and exploit this in lesser warriors. :thumbsup:

fluff-wise, I think he is so powerful that there really is no way that he wouldn't drain a lot of magic from the area to sustain his abilities, but again, that might cripple the Legion's magical abilities, which would be "ok" in most armies, but in the end, I imagine the LoN will be quite magic-dependent (perhaps a bit less than the VC's though).

If you don't insist on keeping him just the way he is though (it is your right after all), I'll ponder a bit on how to balance him a bit more, yet try keep the spirit of him as you intended him to be. I'll get back to you on that once I have something more.

Bishop: sorry about that, it took some time to cosider this post and writ it. I agree though, we're jumping ahead here.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#48
:siren:Thread locked - will be revisited at a later time.

Let's try and keep some focus / order to this project. :siren:
 
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