LoU conundrum

[Skittelz1981]

I dont know if this has already been asked:
lore of undeath can be used by any wizard, even a nightgoblin shaman. Is he summoning orcs and gobbos? Or is he summining undead legion?

 

[najo]

The spells say unit selected from the undead legion, so unless night goblins ate too many mad cap mushrooms and OD'd, they aren't being summoned.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Im confused.... any wizard from any army can take the lore.... but they cant summon? that makes no sense

 

[John Rainbow]

Any wizard can take the lore but summons only undead units i.e. you can't summon High Elf infantry with any of the spells if you are an Archmage that takes the lore but you can summon Skeletons.

 

[VonDookie]

The essence of the OP got me wondering if the rules in Warhammer: Nagash trump that of other army books.. We would assume that in the case of LoU, the answer is yes. If that's true, does that mean Lord Kroak can generate spells from LoU, AND 'always know his one spell'?

In addition to that, (don't have my books with me at the present) could a slann, generate spells from LoU and cast through a skink priest? (Cannot recall if this ability is tied to a specific lore or is lore agnostic)

 

[Skittelz1981]

What im more wondering about is the descriptions in each spell, they always state that the summoning happens from the UL. this means that any other race in warhammer can go summon undead units from the UL?
Are those summoned undeads also not suffering from the unstable rule?
what is the thing here?

I just have a hard time seeing a goblin shaman, a bretonnian priestess or a highelf wizard summoning undead minions....
this is what the spells describe though and is also what is in line with 'any wizard might cast from LoU'

 

[bigbadbat]

Lore of Undeath is usable by any wizard when using the end times rules.
Summoned units would still have the unstable rule per their entry in the appropriate book.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Mm i worded that wrong.
Does slain general affect those units since theyre not part of the real UL
do they have diminished unstable? like Nagash's presence diminishes the crumble in his own Legion.

Theyre Undeads, from UL but theyve been summoned by opposing forces.
My guess is that slain general and regular unstable is their fate instead of the boon that Nagash gives his UL.

 

[Banat]

There's no reason why they would have mitigated crumble, unless some Morghasts had been summoned as well.

Regular unstable.

Undead no longer suffer from slain general crumble, at all.

You have to think of it fluffwise. Nagash's rising and conquering of the Nehekharan afterlife has unleashed a torrent of undeath magic throughout the Old World. The battlefields of the Old World (which is basically what, EVERYWAHR) are littered with the corpses of the dead, then there's graveyards, tombs, necropoli, plus the battlefields of centuries gone past, of thousands of years ago... and now ALL OF TEH BODIES are available for summoning. In theory there would of course also be the many hundreds of thousands of corpses of each race, but why would an Elf undeath lore wizard ONLY be able to summon elves? If they're dead, they can be summoned (apparently orcs and gobbos don't do undeath very well though). All of those different races basically get unbrella'd under "Skeleton Warriors" or "Archers" or whatever. In theory again, it SHOULD be possible to raise Undead Demigryphs or Undead Cannon, but that just ends up way too complicated. If you want to style your undead summons in the theme of dead elves then hell, go for it, it would look ace. But they'd still just use skeleton warrior statlines.

 

[Skittelz1981]

That slain general rule still applies to regular VC and TK. the rising of Nagash did nothing for those undeads.
Why would undead summoned by orcs be immune to slain general?

 

[Skittelz1981]

And @najo i dont know what u mean...
Are you saying nightgobbo shamans cannot summon from LoU? imo they can and are even allowed to eat their mushroom on it and get the benefit... or the OD...

 

[Banat]

You're quite right, I just went and checked my rulebook. It makes it clear undead under the influence of Nagash do not crumble because of his sustaining power. Other armies that want to summon them would still suffer from them, since they're not aligned with Nagash and his Undead Legion. I had been led to understand otherwise by a member of staff.

Skittlz, read what Najo said, he said "Nightgobbos" are not being summoned. Not Nightgobbo Shamans cannot summon.

Any wizard can take lore of undeath, but they can only summon units from the Undead Legions rulebook (combination of VC/TK).

So a Nightgoblin shaman cannot summon a unit of Nightgoblins. He CAN summon a unit of skeletons though. And potentially even a Terrorgheist, Black Coach, Necroplis Knights etc etc.

 

[bigbadbat]

@Banat Where do you see that the Undead no longer crumble? Are you talking only from slain general? That rule does not apply anymore, neither does the Heirophant rule.

 

[Banat]

Yes I was, and yes I know.

 

[Ehstevey]

The essence of the OP got me wondering if the rules in Warhammer: Nagash trump that of other army books.. We would assume that in the case of LoU, the answer is yes. If that's true, does that mean Lord Kroak can generate spells from LoU, AND 'always know his one spell'?

In addition to that, (don't have my books with me at the present) could a slann, generate spells from LoU and cast through a skink priest? (Cannot recall if this ability is tied to a specific lore or is lore agnostic)

Kroak can know any Lore he wants. However he only ever knows one spell (Deliverance of Itza) regardless of circumstances.

The Arcane Vassal rule simply means you can cast any direct damage or Magic Missile spell using the Skink Priest as the point of reference for range. Soul Stealer is the only spell from Lore of Undeath which fits either of those two spell descriptors.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Slain general does apply. it only doesnt apply to an UL army.
All the others (regular VC, regular TK, summon undead by other armies than UL) still suffer from slain general

 

[bigbadbat]

@Skittelz1981 Where does it say that?
Slain General is a rule in the VC book.

 

[najo]

So, if you go out and buy VC or TK army book you'd use that book as is. Slain general/ hieriphant included. GW did this on purpose so their is no confusion, in theory.

When you buy the Nagash book and play undead legions, the two pages everyone is referring to is the undead legion's army special rules. It flat out says the undead legion is it's own army with its own rules and only uses the unit entries of the other book, and use the new army special rules here in the Nagash book. The two designer notes are in context of the undead legion army special rules pages, one being nehekharan undead = undead and slain general/heriophant is intentionally omitted. No where does it say these rules affect the original army books, though slain general/hiero fluff wise makes since as the Nagash's influence could be loosely interpreted to mean all undead armies. RAW is not though, it's referring to undead legion armies only. Likewise, if you run a TK army out of its book, you don't errata the special rules or the nehekharan undead rule. Though I wouldn't blame you wanting to

And, as far as Lore of Undeath, any wizard that has a lore they can choose or come with gets Undeath as a choice too. When they summon its from undead legions units (not goblins and orcs or bretonnians) and they follow undead legion army rules. This means those units ignore your general dying.

It also means a vampire counts or tomb kings army out of its book could run undeath, summon undead legion units, have it's general die and it would make crumble tests for its own units but not those summoned through the lore.

But really, most undead players should be running undead legions. So unless you want special characters not available in the legion, there is no reason not to. So all of this is sorta a mute point.

Side note: armies of the end times rules are not attached to undead legion or lore of undeath. Each of these is a seperate piece of a larger whole.

With all that, I personally think 9th edition undead is going to follow rules similar to this. They are trying to make them function as allies easier and losing the whole crumble when general does is part of that.

 

[Skittelz1981]

As should be. our general dying shouldnt be impacting as it did until now. all nice and fluffy but retarded gamingwise

 

[John Rainbow]

Lol at Kroak using LoU.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I still have a hard time coping with the idea of Undeads raised by a bretonnian priestess being invulnerable to slain general, only because it comes out of UL list....
this insinuates that Nagash protects undead that are in service of the enemy..... which makes 0 sense

 

[Alabaster427]

I still have a hard time coping with the idea of Undeads raised by a bretonnian priestess being invulnerable to slain general, only because it comes out of UL list....
this insinuates that Nagash protects undead that are in service of the enemy..... which makes 0 sense

This is why I think that Generals of Death and Heirotitan are no longer applicable to VC and TK. I know that it's in the UL army list section, but it's a designer's note and the overall book is supposed to update Warhammer. Additionally, it says "No longer apply." Well, those rules never applied to UL in the first place, so it doesn't make sense for them to put it there if it's only for UL players. Furthermore, it would be completely unreasonable for literally every other army to be able to use Undead units that actually use models from the VC/TK book and not suffer from the VC/TK rules while the VC/TK still do.

 

[Skittelz1981]

This is why I think that Generals of Death and Heirotitan are no longer applicable to VC and TK. I know that it's in the UL army list section, but it's a designer's note and the overall book is supposed to update Warhammer. Additionally, it says "No longer apply." Well, those rules never applied to UL in the first place, so it doesn't make sense for them to put it there if it's only for UL players. Furthermore, it would be completely unreasonable for literally every other army to be able to use Undead units that actually use models from the VC/TK book and not suffer from the VC/TK rules while the VC/TK still do.

so... youre saying no one crumbles anymore from the death of a general? not even VC amd TK....
Tbh i dont think those armies really exist anymore. i mean, theyre available for playing but fluffwise and even gamewise, it wouldnt make alot of sense to have separate vc and tk while theres an army that combines both and has better rules.

 

[Alabaster427]

so... youre saying no one crumbles anymore from the death of a general? not even VC amd TK....
Tbh i dont think those armies really exist anymore. i mean, theyre available for playing but fluffwise and even gamewise, it wouldnt make alot of sense to have separate vc and tk while theres an army that combines both and has better rules.

That's true for the most part. There are still Lord and hero options in VC and TK that aren't available for UL, such as Konrad, Heinrich, Settra, etc. Since any wizard can take LoU , VC can still get those TK units that it wants. I still think that Vampires area viable army and End Times makes them even more viable, but UL is in the end, better. I just think there will be a lot of players that either don't want to go UL or can't afford to.

 

[Demian]

Well Skittelz, as per End Times, no Undead crumbles from the General's dying, not because Nagash "protects" them, but because the Death magic (Necromantic magic) is loose upon the world, and unbound from the seals the high Elves placed to contain and disperse the winds of magic. Undead everywhere started poppin and most are uncontrolled. Any wizard can use Lore of Undeath because it is too easy for any magic user to harness and comprehend (since it's just hangin there).

That's the "explanation" provided by Nagash's actions anyways.

Ruleswise, I'd think that Undead Legions comes and trumps the two separate books, as if it were a new expansion, since it would be weird having your General use LoV mandatory, but another necromancer summon stuff from Tks. Either you play The End Times set (with 50% Lords and Heroes allowance, AND Lore of Undeath for everyone) or play regular boring 8th ed with 25% Characters and mandatory LoV on your General.