Legion of Nagash Magic Item Development - Talismans

[Danceman]

Perhaps we should up it to 55pts. Would stop the army from having a hero level unit delivery system. If I have understood this correctly we already do have an ethereal cavarly in the list, right? Or atleast that can move as such. Might be abit too much to be able to make a unit ethereal with the help of a mere hero.

just some thoughts.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Damn you devils advocate!

I would say we stick at 50pts. It might make a decent hero delivery system, however for a one use 50pt item it should be pretty decent. Said hero would get delivered with no magical armour or weapons, so I doubt it would be something too powerful.

 

[Danceman]

I was more worried about the unit itself being delivered, not the actual hero.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I did mention this earlier but I think as it would take all of the heros magic item allowence its okay to keep it at 50 points as you would be looking at over 100pts to deliver the unit as danceman suggested which is quite a lot of points.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

against many armies this item will be the same as "this unit is invulnerable for an entire turn"

I don't agree with this. The key thing about the key(bad pun alert) is that it is used during your turn, not the enemy's turn. If you could use it during the enemy turn then yes I would agree with your assessment, the key would be absurd then as the unit could simply totally ignore a gunline's shooting for instance. IMO the primary use of the key is for sneaky stuff in the move phase.

And I also agree that we need to stop making Bound Spells. At the rate we're going we can make the Legion of Nagash's magic unstoppable simply by flooding the enemy in bound spell items.

I think should be either 50 or 55 points...as to which one exactly, that's up to the vote.

 

[Danceman]

I was referring to the combat phase of which means you can swing fleely without any fear of any damage in return.

My proposed change would be change it from Ethereal special rule, to ethereal movement like Black Knights. It would keep the sneakyness factor but the unit would still fight as normal once delivered. It would still be worth 50pts too.

I agree, it does not have to be a bound spell. It is one use and with if we go with ethereal movement it isnt too powerful either.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Sure, but then it won't be worth as many points. 35-40 then, perhaps.

 

[Danceman]

Works for me at 40pts but no less, a hero carrying it shouldnt be able to carry anything but the most basic gear.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I disagree. I think the original rules at 50pts was fine.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I agree with DON that the original rules were fine at 50pts. I would consider taking the item in the original rules but it wouldn't be an auto-take as it would take up all the magic item allowence of a hero and half of a lords, You also wouldn't really want to take it on a disiple on Nagash as you would keep him at the back. I don't think I would pay 40pts for 1 etherial movement unless on Cavalry, and we all ready have etherial cavalry.

 

[Danceman]

And that is a problem in itself. First off you got BKs(which are fine) but then you got the rare cav as well, which I must say is alot of cheddar. Charging through terrain, ignore AS, 2+ save, a "ward", can ditch combats and cause terror. Thats one hell of a deal for 65pts. I also missed the rule at the alive fast cavaly, thought they were undead. Another problem IMO as you're giving an undead army alive units, especially when it is fast cavalry. It is fluffy and all that but at 14pts its too cheap when you consider the flexibility in having undead units who never run and can charge through anything and baiting fast cav.

Its just too much, you will be able to dance around your opponent and charge at will and there wont be a thing your opponent can do about it. Imagine it yourself sitting on the opposite side of this and all of the sudden you got Blood Knight-esque cavalry charging through what you thought was impasseble terrain and having to deal with the mobility of BK units/Fast cav.

Remember what I said about "killing your darlings"? This isnt me being the devils advocate anymore but rather some genuine concern about the list.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Hold your horses(pun intended). If you look the the Things That Are Certain thread you will see the Black Knights are not confirmed as being in the list yet.

Also, I think you forgot that we are voting things through to finalise them...for the playtesting phase. So it doesn't mean that what you see is really final.

 

[Danceman]

Aye, I guessed as much(with the playtesting).

Black knights isnt what is bothering me, they are pretty much balanced already.

My main concern is the mountain of special rules the Spectral knights got, especially how they ignore so many of the core rules as in how they ignore any terrain of the board. While opponents maneuver around terrain, BAM, here comes a sledgehammer of(assuming you got 5 of spec knights) 15 S5 ignoring saves + 5 S4 attacks(plus the effects of a banner should you chose to give them one). I know they are base S4 and need to charge to get S5 but you'd have mess up very badly to fail to get the charge. Even Daemon players would stare in disbelief at this kind of power. Nevermind maneuvering, just hide them behind some terrain and watch how you will controll your opponents movement phase. With 2 of these units it will be a complete nightmare for your opponent, especially for armies who have to come to you. The armies that comes to mind first are Brets and WoC of which this unit will just laugh at they slaughter their way through them.

So in a nutshell, whats bothering me is;
Ignoring AS, maybe go with Armour piercing instead which would mean -3 AS on the charge(same as a charging Bret lance) and completely drop Ethersight as IMO is just plain broken.

In short, too much maneuverability.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I agree with some of danceman's points about the Spectral knights esspecially the ability to see through terrain which is IMHO over powered. (they would only have 11 attacks BTW Dancemen but its still enough).

I was going to argue that it would cost 750 points to do a set up like Danceman suggested but it would be more then worth it esspecially if you add in the effects of a standard. I think ethersite definatly needs dropping. The Ignoring armorsaves also needs ammending IMO I think Dancemans idea would work.

I think the Fast cavelry are fine.

P.s Is there somewhere else we can disscus this as it doesn't seem right to disscus it in the talismans thread.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Actually, I just took a good hard look at the Spectral Knights for once, and I have to agree with the seeing through terrain(it's fine if they don't have Ethereal movement....but they do). Seeing through your own units for the purposes of charging is good enough IMO.

Now back on topic...is the Key approved?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Yeah, I like the original version of the key for 50pts.

 

[Danceman]

Needless to say I dont like it. BKs(if voted in) and Spectral knights makes it too easy to dominate the movement phase.
It will quite simply be over the top since you at the same time have access to rituals, which in turn will not fail as they are cast as a bound item(and it is a march move nonetheless!). I have a question about this spell, can you make a march move and wheel about to get around terrain to charge using this? Or do you have to declare a charge or march? The wording seem to suggest the former, in which case you have to tone this spell down in terms of range, like VDM, too like 10" or something. The abundance of ethereal movement + a supercharged VDM will generate nothing but annoyence and angry opponents. It is pretty much what TK can do(but even better!) but with much much stronger units.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

I agree with DoN and CRD here. I think 50pts for a turn of ethereal is fine.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I am going to have maybe make a new rules thread, but basically anything that has already been voted through, well has been voted by the majority. If the majority think its ok I don't think it is right to then go back and change things otherwise what is the point of voting.

However as mentioned. That is only voting through to the playtesting phase. Somethings may change once we have a full list with rules and we can start looking at synergy and combos. If we discover broken or OP elements then of course changes can and will be made.

Personally as we have a ethereal movement cav, I was going to suggest a heavy undead cav on lieu of Black Knights without ethereal movement, similar to the the twist we did with Pinnacle Guard. However that's a discussion for another thread.


Ok so we have 4 votes to 1 to add it to the list. Unless anyone else objects I will add it to the list tomorrow, however it still has to go through voting and playtesting so I see no need to get overly worried.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I've added the Key to the Grey Vault to the list. Do we think anymore or needed are we ok with what we have?

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

What we have seems fair to me.

 

[Bishop]

Key looks fine to me

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

What we have looks good to me

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, in that case this is going to the vote.

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