My thoughts on adding Tomb Kings

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Many of us are playing with the new rules simply because of the removal of crumble. But is there any reason to start including TK?

Unlike the absurd combos now viable for Chaos and Elves, VC/TK already have a lot of overlapping units and rules. Also TK is probably the second worst army (behind Beastmen, who now have a resurgence).

"Awesome" Combos
"Movement Shenanigans"
So TK can march now and since we can take the lore of nehek that means doubling movement through K. Incantation of the Desert Wind. Unfortunately taking Liche Preist for this reason is rarely optimal over simply taking a Book of Arkhan. KIotDW is signature, which is nice but its the same 12" as VDM. Sure you can fly a T-gheist 40" but in the case of the majority of units, this is equal to VDM but for 2+ more to cast & without ToHit re-rolls. VDM is obviously superior on a Corpse Cart as well. Due to the Res Fallen Warriors rules, you can still only heal the same single wound on your T-Gheist. Unlike VDM, you don't get to choose who gets the wound and you can't heal chars, but it is nice to get 2-4 wounds on hardy units like BK or CH (although a lvl2 necro could already add a reliable 3 wounds). You can boost it to everyone within 24" for a monstrous 16+ which can be pretty epic, however there's not much incentive to take a lvl4 Liche and so you need to roll 14-15+ to get it off compared to the 8+ you usually roll to get off your boosted VDM. Your units were already within 12" of your general so a boosted range is not often important.

New Lores:
Nehek: its actually a pretty nice well rounded lore, granting movement hindering (Vengence) and defense (Protection). But overall the casting values are very expensive. Soulblight is superior to Desiccation and purple sun makes Skullstorm look like a joke. Successful Doom & Darkness will win games in the right lists. If you're going to give up lore of Vamps, you're going to go with Death.

Light: You're just not going to forefit vamp lore for a light council build. They are great, but not or us. There just nothing here to pull a wiz away from Vamp or Death.

Addition of ranged units:
Arrows of Asaph are sweet except that absolutely everything has 2 BS, and no way to improve it. That means 1 in 3 of your shots will hit. Skeleton archers, while cheap, are just disappointing. Bow shooting is disappointing as a whole in warhammer, unless you want to build a list around a lvl4 shadow vamp. Withering breaks shooting. Ushtabi don't have the numbers to make up for the shit BS and therefore you're paying 150pts for an average of one S6 hit from 30" per turn. Colossus is the same problem. That S6 D3 wound no-armor hit is just not going to hit when you need it to.

A catapult is cute but msot armies are tooled out ot protect from skullcannons and hellcannons so your 3(9) damage stone thrower isn't going to do much. Also a good VC player has all the enemy engaged by turn 2 so there's no great targets for you. It is a nice way to deal with some chaff and diversify your army so its not a bad choice for 90pts each.

The Tomb King Grave Guard
I was super excited about this but my expectations fell short. Unfortunately Grave Guard are just too pricey to be effective outside of a GG centric double-mortis list, and that is still the case. A Tomb King or Tomb Prince are taking points away from your vamps, the most powerful offensive melee chars in the game. A unit of 30 GG packs a powerful anti-armor punch all on its own and is a huge point investment.
8 CH: 304pts
10 Hexwraiths: 300pts
4 Vargheist: 184pt
30 GW GG, FCG, Barrows: 440pts

GG are just a huge point sink for a single hammer. Many VC players will even tell you that 30 is far too few. Smart opponents will focus down this units first, which is quite easy given their lack of defenses. Then you're desperately casting Nehek to save them in a losing battle. In any list, the GG are expensive an the addition of a TK char + the items needed to keep him alive is going to be too much, and in the end, is it even that much better than a nightshroud Wight King?

New Magic Items
Due to the rules you can only take TK items on a TK character. Therefore you are spending a crap ton of points to make a fear bomb somewhat legitimate with a Golden Death Mask. Taking a TK BSB should be easy but what unit is under 150 points that you want to ambush with? I don't see any reason to invest in a TK magic item.

Chariots
Making a unit of 9 chariots for a bunch of S6 impact hits might be fun but we usually use skeleton and zombies for our bunkers. If we invest in chariots we need to find a new place for our characters.

Casket of Souls
135 points for D3 power dice every turn is worth it. Light of death is disappointing given that they can re-roll within the BSB bubble, but this can punish any unit that wanders too far from the general and synergies with all the other -Ld tricks we often employ. Innate bound spells are always fun, given the zero penalties for a miscast. Should you somehow survive an attack, the great weapon guard have an opportunity to even cause some wounds on your attacker (who may only assault with 6 models due to war machine rules)

Summary
VC and TK are like two different sides of a coin. We all know VC got the good side of the coin. Both undead armies rely on their own specific synergy that doesn't really seem to overlap as much as you'd think. WoC, DoC, HE & DE were already the most competitive and diverse armies and now they are combined with jaw dropping options. Be ready for skullcannons, Beast of nurgle and doomfire warlocks as far as the eye can see. The Troll core + Doombull fire resist is absurd. Aside from a casket of souls and maybe a skeleton archer necro bunker, I don't think you'll be seeing a whole lot of TK units down the stretch, even if 9th keeps this as an option.

Is anyone really enjoying a TK addition to their VC army?

 

[LordTobiothan]

The casket of souls is right next to cannons in the top tier war machine slot regardless of army so never a downside there.

Our core is the absolute worst pick of the lot in the game. There is a reason taking more than minimum is suicidal. With tomb king units we can fill a ton of those usually wasted points with shooting to clear chaff and 3 man chariot units for impact punch into a combat.

The my will be done is much better then you make it out to be. 11 point elite choice is fairly standard so idk how that is so pricey, especially when we can just raise more. And a tomb prince isn't all that expensive so we still get our vamp lords.

Also war sphinx gives us an actual tough monster and in the special slot and stalkers are at least an option for ambush play. Not too mention hero titan for more magic.

Yes the legion of undead is mostly a vampire army. But tomb kings were built around shitty units with good support, the units just ended up being too shitty. We fix that, and take the support.

 

[The Sun King]

I very much disagree that Legions is VC + TK support. Sure it might seem that way on this forum, but my hammer dance list really melt the two armies together as one. Thinking too much in VC terms will blind us to the great opportunities that came with UL. Remember that the TK book was priced with no marching and crumbling in mind... those two things just disappeared which made the WHOLE book a lot better.

 

[Seneschal]

Hierotitan, casket, horse archers are excellent choices. I am actually including two units of warriors of the cheaper TK variety instead of vamp skellies as well.
-give the casket a chance. It wipes warmachines and monsters off the board and is practically a must have for any list.
-horse archers are fast cav and scouts, a unit with two abilities we were lacking. Having them in core and with albeit a little of shooting makes them winners. Think of the tricks you've seen other armies pull with fast cav and laugh as you apply them to practice yourself.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

The list I'm testing lately has 3 movement tricks (Book of Arkhan, Danse, Winds). I'm consistently parking my whole army 3" or so from my opponent's line Turn 1. The Casket + Heiro + Tome Engine is my standard Rare load out now. And I like the Kanopi on the Liche for lulz. It's a fun item that nets me PD and makes it less of a necessity to attempt a Dispel on a RiP spell when it's cast.

I'm looking to branch further into the TK book when I can plan how to make more Egyptian undead models look like European undead models. Great fun so far.

 

[LordTobiothan]

I very much disagree that Legions is VC + TK support. Sure it might seem that way on this forum, but my hammer dance list really melt the two armies together as one. Thinking too much in VC terms will blind us to the great opportunities that came with UL. Remember that the TK book was priced with no marching and crumbling in mind... those two things just disappeared which made the WHOLE book a lot better.

Crumbling isn't really gone though. I doubt they were priced with the "lose your general lose your army" rule in mind. Regular crumble is still around and I think that is what they are priced for. The no marching was a bad idea that made them UP they weren't given any sort of compensation for it.

Really though. Can you think of one main combat unit you're likely to pull from TK over the equivalent VC unit? Unless you are a tomb kings player at heart they are generally strictly worse units than ours.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@LordTobiothan The Sphinxes, mos def. Special slot monster trumps Rare slot monsters.

 

[Count Gery]

Having easy access to light is huge in my opinion. The augments in there are pretty good. I can't wait to try out WS 10 grave guards with mark of nurgle (sorry with pha's protection). Hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, getting hit back on 5's and 6's sounds pretty good. Yes, it relies on magic, but tomb kings usually have a pretty good magic phase.

 

[GhoulKing505]

I still can't wait to try the zombie dragon with a lvl 4 light caster. WS 10 zombie dragon is really hard to damage. Plus with phas protection we have even more defense for the dragon against cannons and the like.

 

[The Sun King]

I run Necro Knights in my current list and fill core with Chariots and Horsemen... they wreck face.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

100% disagree with the OP on this one. Most of the best units in the combined list are out of the Tomb Kings book.

TK core is superior to VC core in almost every way. There is no reason to take VC skeletons, and 4 point skeletons with 6+6++ and a champion are miles better than 3 point zombies with no save, ASL, and WS1.

Big units of chariots are a liability, but small units are great. 3 chariots with flaming banner is a very solid utility unit. It shoots, it's fast, and it can crash in late game to swing a combat in your favour. 3d6 S4 flaming impact hits are nothing to shake a stick at, and are the best way to knock regen off something like a troll horde so that your VL can go to town.

Skeleton horsemen are a solid bunker for a mounted vampire lord. Yeah they're more fragile than BKs, but they come out of core and they're way cheaper. I run mine 3-wide with FC and a pair of vampire lords. It's savage.

Horse archers are very solid as well. More expensive than dogs, but scout+vanguard is amazing when you're up against vanguarding enemies.

Dogs are really the only VC core that I want to take.



Elsewise TK units also got amazing with the addition of VC support. Lore of Vampires is amazing combined with TK units. Necroknights with rerolls to hit are savage. Being able to march with them too, and put wounds back on them, is even better. TK suffered by not having anything that could keep up with them, but mounted vampire lords are the answer to that.

Warsphinxes with LoV are also amazing. They suffered under TK from not being able to put wounds back onto them easily: people would just chip a couple wounds off them then take them down with SCR. But with a VL nearby chipping wounds off of them they're great. Against infantry, with Vanhels giving rerolls to hit on your thundercrush attack, they're AMAZING. I've had one kill 22 savage orcs in a single round of combat.

Casket of Souls is also fantastic. Light of Death is a great spell for 2 dice. It shouldn't be cast at your opponent's centre, where IP + BSB limit its effectiveness. But it will kill warmachines like nobody's business, especially when they're all clustered up together and you get lucky on bounces.

I also like Tomb Guard over GG. They can be made ASF with corpse carts or light magic, and I3 means that they hit before or simultaneous with half the armies in the game. That's huge for a unit that's so fragile.



The only units I'm still taking out of the VC book are vampires, vargheists, chaff, and a terrorgheist if it fits. Everything else is Tomb Kings. It may not comprise the bulk of my points, but it certainly comprises the bulk of my models.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I disagree that there's room for a King/Prince in our lists, but bringing lore of light is an interesting alternative, especially with new magic rules.

You cant compare GG to other special infantry becasue GG simply have worse stats, little defense and ASL compared to others with similar point values. You need to commit to more models than other armies are comfortable with. You have a big point hole and your opponent knows that you need to get off that nehek. Just feels like a big crutch to me and I don't enjoy playing that way. If you want a wrecking ball unit that will smash through your opponent, a black knight bus is better in every way.

TK skeletons are just the same as VC, except you can choose to leave out the light armor for a point in savings. Its a debatable tradeoff, since the only thing you need them for is survival. You also miss out on the VC banners which are popular with skeletons. As for being better than zombies, not much beats the fact that the can go above starting, and resurrecting up to 16 models per nehek is probably more valuable.

Skeleton archers are slightly interesting. I find my skeleton/zombie mage bus doesn't see much action. being able to throw some arrows out is nice, at a very cheap price. But horse archers are just sad. 14pts for a unit thats nearly blowing over in the wind. you're paying 42 points just for one S3 arrow hit. If you could put a character in there with the fast cav, then this unit would have tremendous value. But you cant, so you're risking killing all your chars with crumble when you bring such a pushover unit. Wolves, tgheist, casket, even fell bats are better for killing war machines. And their necks are anatomically incorrect which just annoys me.

The argument about tomb guard is very valid. Giving up the crutch of Barrows for an overall cheaper until that can be ASF with light or Corpse Cart will likely see more interesting and successful games.

Necro knights are interesting but ungodly expensive. Personally I would rather take nearly 2 crypt horros for the same cost.

Warsphinx doesn't interest me. I'd still prefer a tgheist. You get more killing power, especially more adaptable killing power (ranged, no armor saves) and way more speed (flying). Warsphinx is just a beast to kill. It would be fun to anvil a S6 unit though. Also, its a sweet model. Necrosphinx is the same but with flying. It's probably a lot of fun to tie up the enemy generals unit with one.

Nobody's arguing against the casket, its sweet. But still, not anything more amazing for casting compared to a lot of stuff that VC already have, jsut a nice alternative/compliment to the army.

I do have a few more ideas to try but overall, TK, WoC, Daemons, Beastmen, WE, HE & DE have new stuff to drool over, VC don't get anything that really shakes things up.

 

[Count Gery]

I plan to use GG as an anvil, not a hammer. Take 25 with hw/shield and with the augments from light they can hold out for a long time, and can do damage with their killing blow. You don't even need the banner for that. Yes, crypt horrors are still superior, but it is nice to have another option as an anvil. And my opponents knows that I have to get that Van hels on my crypt horrors and I still manage to cast it most of the time. And with access to spells like re-rolls to hit, to wound, improved killing blow, +1 attack, 5++, -1S -1T, WS10 I10, -1 to hit with all kind of attacks, ASF with +1 attack (yes I plan to take all 3 lores), and access to the magic support of the tomb kings my opponents will have an even harder time deciding what to let go.
Black Knights are a superior hammer only if you take a vampire lord in there. Grave guard don't need the lord with those augments. Not to mention if your opponents shooting ignores your armor they can die fast (wood elves, dwarfs)

I agree on the core though, I think zombies are still better tarpits the TK skellies, wolves are still amazing, and crypt ghouls might worth another look with access to light and nehekhara (might...). But now we have access to ranged units which is awesome (more on that later), and the chariots can actually do damage that our core can't really do. Horse archers are interesting because they are scouting fast cavalry, and they can march in an UL army. You can stop your opponents vanguard (gyros flaming your battleline on turn 1 is not nice...), and then just vanguard into a different position, they are better then wolves at redirecting because they are fast cav, and they can shoot (ineffectively). If they could flee then they would be broken But they are not war machine hunters. For that take carrions. They are pretty good at that now that they can fly properly

Having access to range units give you more tactical options and tools to deal with things we had problems before. With all the shooting (and magic missiles) you can force your opponents to come to you, you can deal with units that would just dance around your big scary combat blocks (wood elves, doomlocks), remove enemy redirectors without using magic missiles or engaging them in combat. It gives you options to deal with monsters like the hellpit, chimerea, demon princes outside of the standard T-bat and blender lord (skull-a-pult, light council). And I like all those options

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

1) TK skeletons are just the same as VC, except you can choose to leave out the light armor for a point in savings. Its a debatable tradeoff, since the only thing you need them for is survival. You also miss out on the VC banners which are popular with skeletons. As for being better than zombies, not much beats the fact that the can go above starting, and resurrecting up to 16 models per nehek is probably more valuable.

2) Skeleton archers are slightly interesting. I find my skeleton/zombie mage bus doesn't see much action. being able to throw some arrows out is nice, at a very cheap price.

3) But horse archers are just sad. 14pts for a unit thats nearly blowing over in the wind. you're paying 42 points just for one S3 arrow hit. If you could put a character in there with the fast cav, then this unit would have tremendous value. But you cant, so you're risking killing all your chars with crumble when you bring such a pushover unit. Wolves, tgheist, casket, even fell bats are better for killing war machines. And their necks are anatomically incorrect which just annoys me.

4) Necro knights are interesting but ungodly expensive. Personally I would rather take nearly 2 crypt horros for the same cost.

5) Warsphinx doesn't interest me. I'd still prefer a tgheist. You get more killing power, especially more adaptable killing power (ranged, no armor saves) and way more speed (flying). Warsphinx is just a beast to kill. It would be fun to anvil a S6 unit though. Also, its a sweet model. Necrosphinx is the same but with flying. It's probably a lot of fun to tie up the enemy generals unit with one.

6) Nobody's arguing against the casket, its sweet. But still, not anything more amazing for casting compared to a lot of stuff that VC already have, jsut a nice alternative/compliment to the army.

1) Recognize that "a point in savings" is a 25% reduction. That's huge. A unit of 40 with Champ+Standard is only 180 points. And while zombies can be raised above starting cap, that means dedicating dice to IoN and being within range. I've found that, with how dynamic you can make a UL army, that's frequently not the case.

2) It really depends on what kind of list you're running. Personally I'd rather have chariots doing my shooting, since they're more multi-purpose (in units of 3, as a support unit). But a unit of 20 to bunker a wizard behind a foot-based list is solid for clearing chaff or chipping wounds on big solo monsters with poor saves.

3) The benefit of horse archers isn't their shooting, it's scout AND vanguard AND fast cav AND a few shots. They're amazing. Deploy them 12" in front of vanguarders, vanguard your dogs forward, then your horse archers back. Or deploy them in front of your bus once your enemy has deployed to screen them from warmachine fire.

Re: warmachines, I've found that they're actually better at threatening them than they are at actually killing them. People get really worried about horse archers scouted outside their line of sight and turn shit to deal with them. Not a bad buy for 70 points.

4) Necroknights have more attacks, KB, S5, M7 swiftstride, command (better for tournament objectives that require standards, which are all the rage these days), and synergize really well with Lore of Nehekha, Light, or Vampires. They're a solid unit, and I would take them over crypt horrors any day.

5) Don't forget the thundercrush. Stonethrower in close combat that doesn't scatter and counts for CR. Get it rerolling hits with Vanhels and it's savage.

Terrorgheists are cool, but they don't live past turn 1 or 2 against most armies. Warsphinxes don't have a target on their head in the same kind of way.

6) Disagree. Casket is an auto-include. Adds to magic phase, T1 removal of chaff and warmachines, and manipulates how your opponent throws dispel dice. The potential for that little bound spell to do massive damage is too much for most opponents to handle, and they'll throw 2 dispel dice at the 2 dice you throw at the spell (which it generated itself). Or leave it until the end and watch your opponent hold onto those last two dice while you cast spell after spell, only to stuff them into a periapt.

It's amazing. After that one game where it bounces through your opponent's entire army doing damage to every unit they'll never underestimate it again, and it'll eat cannonballs (that it shrugs off 50% of the time), fast cav (that could be chaffing your bus), and dispel dice (or even scrolls) that could be harmful deployed against you anywhere else.

 

[Sception]

Casket is amazing, yes, an auto-include. Largely because it's cheap enough that it hardly makes a dent in your rare allotment, so I don't consider it an argument against VC rare, but rather something to field in addition.

I will echo however the notion that the ability to res zombies above starting size and especially their extra wounds from invocation absolutely make them competitive with and even arguably superior to naked tomb kings skeletons as a tar pit. And if you like to give your skeletons spears (perhaps you are fielding one or more mortis engines, or you just aesthetically prefer the spears - not every decision is tactical, after all), then vamp counts skellies are back to being the superior choice since they don't pay extra for that weapon swap.

And any tomb kings player who has run khalida knows how useful poison can be, and wouldn't be quite so quick to discount ghouls as an option. I agree that, in general, and especially taken on their own merits, TK core seems a bit superior, but I don't think the vamp options are rendered obsolete by access to them, especially if you run casters with lore of vamps.

Which seems to be a big factor, here. If you skip vamps for, say, light casters, then maybe you should skip vc core as well, but if you've got a few invocations to sling around...


Similar with Necroknights vs. crypt horrors, though that's not exactly the fairest comparison, since the knights are a much faster and more independent unit, while the horrors would generally prefer to stick to the battle line. The horrors raise a lot faster w/ invocation than the knights, so if you're running vamp lore casters they may be the better choice. Also with their smaller footprint and regen, they're better cannon-catchers if you need a screen for a big monster like Nagash or the like.

A fairer comparison to Necroknights might be vargheists, which likewise are fast hunter/flanker units more likely to operate away from casters, and that are limited to one restored wound per casting even if you do have a caster nearby to heal them. But even there, I'd have a hard time saying the knights were strictly superior, what with the 'gheists ability to march away from your battle line & such.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I think with UL you're really going to struggle to find "strictly" superior options. We have such an embarrassment of riches in terms of viable units and synergies with those that it's tough to find many "one-size-fits-all" additions.

I would say that, in certain builds, the knights are going to be better. The knights really love being hit with extra attacks (Nehek, Light), as well as rerolls (Vampires, Light). Crypt horrors like rerolls and raise easily (Vampires, and I guess Nehek would work just as well). Vargheists are an independent flanking unit and as such don't work well with many of the close-range lores we have available (though they do like Soulblight/D&D from Death or Miasma/Mindrazor from Shadow).


Core too is going to depend on what else you're running. Horsemen make good vampire bunkers. Chariots are good supporting units. Horse archers are good gunline support (block those pesky vanguards), while dogs are cheaper chaff. But for tarpits I'm going to say it again depends on your magic arrangement. I've found that skeletons are a better option unsupported, as they bleed fewer wounds. Zombies are better with magic support. Ghouls I think work well with light magic, and I think a TK/TP could make that unit pretty savage...as could shadow magic.

Casket works well with everything though. It's the only unit I would say fits into any UL list.

 

[John Rainbow]

Other than the more obvious choices I will also second the idea of using horsemen from core to form a new bus for a blender rather than a BK bus. They're so much cheaper and come out of the 'core tax' (something we HE players know a lot about). With a ranked unit full of characters it really doesn't matter what the unit is. The poorer AS v. BK is a relatively small sacrifice to make in my mind.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Other than the more obvious choices I will also second the idea of using horsemen from core to form a new bus for a blender rather than a BK bus. They're so much cheaper and come out of the 'core tax' (something we HE players know a lot about). With a ranked unit full of characters it really doesn't matter what the unit is. The poorer AS v. BK is a relatively small sacrifice to make in my mind.

...especially when you run the bus 3-wide, meaning that the front rank is comprised of a champion and two WS7 T5 blender lords ;-)

 

[John Rainbow]

...especially when you run the bus 3-wide, meaning that the front rank is comprised of a champion and two WS7 T5 blender lords ;-)

I saw this and I'm not sold on the 3 wide. Let's say your unit is 15 models inc. characters - a decent size to ensure you get to combat and the horsemen can soak wounds for you. This means the unit is 5 deep and becomes fairly unwieldy. You also get zero rank bonus which can be a huge problem if you get charged by something tough in the flank or otherwise. This is also more likely given that your flank is now huge.

 

[Sception]

And, of course, we're not talking a bout a game of stats and dice alone. Aesthetically, the skeleton horsemen look atrocious, and lack good alternative options, while the Black Knights look fantastic right out of the box, so... yeah.

 

[LordTobiothan]

And, of course, we're not talking a bout a game of stats and dice alone. Aesthetically, the skeleton horsemen look atrocious, and lack good alternative options, while the Black Knights look fantastic right out of the box, so... yeah.

Any unit can look as good or bad as their owners ability to make them. Going stock gw kit with paid gw painters might make black knights look better, but that isn't the route 95% of us go.

 

[Sception]

As I mentioned, there is a lack of good alternative options for skeleton horsemen. I've looked at GW, mantic, & other. I've looked at armies posted online. I don't think I've ever seen a good looking unit of skeleton horsemen. Closest is maybe hexwraiths w/ most of the fire removed and VC skelly bits for spears and shields.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I saw this and I'm not sold on the 3 wide. Let's say your unit is 15 models inc. characters - a decent size to ensure you get to combat and the horsemen can soak wounds for you. This means the unit is 5 deep and becomes fairly unwieldy. You also get zero rank bonus which can be a huge problem if you get charged by something tough in the flank or otherwise. This is also more likely given that your flank is now huge.

I run mine 6 deep. It is indeed quite unwieldy, but Bretonnian players seem to handle it just fine so I'm sure I will too in time. It helps that with UL my deployment zone is far less cluttered. All I have that needs to be in there is a terrorgheist and some spirit hosts / direwolves, plus a unit of 40 skeleton warriors occasionally. So long as I don't box myself in I haven't had many problems (so far). The vampires also have hellsteeds so worst case scenario I charge one out over things.

Re: getting charged in the side, there's an easy solution for that: make way with the vampires. You should be able to reliable output 14 wounds with the two of them alone, which is charge + flank + banner + 11 wounds/SCR. Funnily enough, I am actually quite happy to let people deplete my unit with shooting and magic in order to limit the number of wounds they can do to the horsemen bunker in just such a scenario. Quite frankly, anything that entices people to charge a unit into 1200 points of vampires is fine with me. There is very little in this game that I am afraid of sending my vampires into.

As I mentioned, there is a lack of good alternative options for skeleton horsemen. I've looked at GW, mantic, & other. I've looked at armies posted online. I don't think I've ever seen a good looking unit of skeleton horsemen. Closest is maybe hexwraiths w/ most of the fire removed and VC skelly bits for spears and shields.

I've seen somebody convert (one) out of a TK horseman and a warsphinx rider. Looked awesome. I plan on making a bunch this way (have the bits...hopefully will have the time too over christmas). Not sure how you'd do it with a gothic VC theme, though. In fairness it would probably look just fine with the same rider bits on hexxie horses, plus BK heads on the riders.

 

[John Rainbow]

@Pirate Robot Ninja of Death : I appreciate the well-thought out response and I think you make a good argument.

 

[Demian]

Necrotects with Ghouls!!

A Tomb Prince (with it's standard GW, DBG and Armor of Silvered steel) is a nice addition to either Grave or Tomb Guard. I like them on a Grave Guard better, because it makes our sub-par killing machines into Elite troops (at 11 pts mind you). A Tomb King make them Chosen Elites! Banner of the Barrows is simply overpowered with WS 6, but I always add a (Elector Count of Sylvania) Vlad von Carstein (Mortarch of Shadows) (Mr. Awesomeness) and the unit is pricey as hell, but since that's the strategy, I might as well build the entire army around it.

Everything else has been said above! (and I hadn't considered Necropolis Knights... those sound good after reading about them here, hehe)