Number of Grave Guard to take in 2000 pts

[jreist]

Hey guys. I have recently started to play Vampire Counts. The average points size we normally play with is 2000, but sometimes goes up from there.

My question is how many Grave Guard I should be taking for them to be an effective unit @ the 2000 points level. I can scale from there if I am playing a higher points value game.

Thanks in advance for the help! :thumbsup:

 

[Tim]

In smaller games I take up to 20, and 2000+ usually up to 40 depending going 5/7/10 wide. I would use the extra points om versatility and have more different type of units instead of sinking more in grave guard.

 

[jreist]

Thanks Tim. That's what I was thinking, but I wanted some confirmation from a more experienced player before I finished my army build.

Oh and I love your avatar! :vampire3:

 

[Tomb King]

Thanks Tim. That's what I was thinking, but I wanted some confirmation from a more experienced player before I finished my army build.

Oh and I love your avatar! :vampire3:

lol, i rolled dice once :lol:. My 3000 point list has 0 grave guard in it. I might switch it some but currently like the flow of the army. A non conventional list.

 

[Greven]

I'm going with 30 in my current 3k list.

 

[rothgar13]

I'd never dip below 40 in a game at 2000 or higher (that does include characters, though). That unit is just such a threat.

 

[jreist]

I'd never dip below 40 in a game at 2000 or higher (that does include characters, though). That unit is just such a threat.

40 at 2000 points seems like a lot of your total points put into one unit (about 1/4). I can see that when you go higher, but it seems like I would not have many points to spend elsewhere. Do you really find that the unit is effective enough to make up for that? What else do you end up fielding with the 40 GG?

 

[rothgar13]

Usually a Wall-o-Wraith, a Master Necromancer, and some chaff. Dire Wolves and Spirit Hosts.

 

[TobiasRathein]

40 at 2000 points seems like a lot of your total points put into one unit (about 1/4). I can see that when you go higher, but it seems like I would not have many points to spend elsewhere. Do you really find that the unit is effective enough to make up for that? What else do you end up fielding with the 40 GG?

Rothgar has played many, many games against me. He's seen variants of the GG ranging anywhere from 20-40. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you field them to be your "kill everything" unit, you need a unit 40 strong (including characters). Grave Guard with great weapons and a Wight King and Vampire Lord will rip whatever they fight to pieces. If you bring less than 40, expect to see a lot of points get thrown away.

However, this is precisely why I hate playing 2,000 point games. You can't fully equip the vampire lord and still bring a Master Necromancer.

First, decide what you want to do with your vamp lord. You CAN make him a level 4, but he'll run at just about 500 points. You're talking putting HALF of your points into one unit. If you don't want to do that, you could field a couple level 2 casters, or you could avoid the vampire lord and use a Master Necro instead.

What are you more interested in?

 

[jreist]

Rothgar has played many, many games against me. He's seen variants of the GG ranging anywhere from 20-40. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you field them to be your "kill everything" unit, you need a unit 40 strong (including characters). Grave Guard with great weapons and a Wight King and Vampire Lord will rip whatever they fight to pieces. If you bring less than 40, expect to see a lot of points get thrown away.

However, this is precisely why I hate playing 2,000 point games. You can't fully equip the vampire lord and still bring a Master Necromancer.

First, decide what you want to do with your vamp lord. You CAN make him a level 4, but he'll run at just about 500 points. You're talking putting HALF of your points into one unit. If you don't want to do that, you could field a couple level 2 casters, or you could avoid the vampire lord and use a Master Necro instead.

What are you more interested in?

I too would rather be playing with more points, but this is a campaign put on by a shop and 2000 points is what they decided to run.

I prefer the idea of the Vampire Lord as my general because I can give him heavy armour to make him more lasting (plus I like the leadership 10 and vampiric powers), but, like you said, a Vampire Lord is very points heavy. Thus, I have started to use a Master Necromancer. I have not really decided if I like the sacrifice I am making in combat to take him though, so I may try taking a Vampire Lord without leveling his magic and taking a couple level 2 Necromancers. The only problem I have with that is I think it could become very easy for my opponents to dispel my spells. Kinda fell like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place as far as my Lord choice is concerned o_o

 

[TobiasRathein]

I don't think it's a great idea at all, but you CAN tool your vampire lord for combat and still make him a level 4 caster. It will run you up to your points max in lords choices, though...

 

[jreist]

I can't say I am really a huge fan of that idea. It really feels like I am putting all my eggs in one basket if I put him in with the GG at that point...

 

[TobiasRathein]

I can't say I am really a huge fan of that idea. It really feels like I am putting all my eggs in one basket if I put him in with the GG at that point...

Yeah, it's not a great idea. It's kind of like if you wanted a combat lord in 7th edition in a smaller game; it just didn't work out.

I think the only way to play it is safe, and that means fielding a master necro and using the points elsewhere.

 

[Kaptain Von]

I wouldn't stick the 500 point Lord in the 40-man Grave Guard unit myself. Those sorts of points denial shenanigans are rather less appealing in the age of no partials and point-click-delete spells. Deny points by all means but force choices as well. I suppose you could call it... plausible deniability?

I don't suppose you've considered the level 1 or 2 Lord, a couple of Necromancers and the Mortis Engine by any chance? That +2 to cast seems like it'll fix many of your problems, and the Staff of Sorcery on a level 2 wizard isn't too bad in terms of dispelling power.

 

[jreist]

Tobias: In that case would you recommend putting the Master Necro in the unit of GG, or in some other unit and using just a regular Vampire with the Wight King and GG?

Von: I had not thought of using the Mortis Engine with Necromancers. To do that I would have to finish my Mortis Engine though, which is still a work in progress as it looks much easier to paint in stages. That said I may just bite the bullet and do that to give that a shot.

 

[Tomb King]

Is taking two units of
30-40 grave guard with great weapons overkill in 3000 point games?

 

[rothgar13]

At that point, space becomes a concern. It's awful hard for VC to fill their Core without taking up a ton of space, and 2 Great Weapon Hordes don't exactly have a small footprint. The second issue is how do you get them both into combat.

 

[Chucknorris]

Ill take 20 GG with great weapons in a 2K game and put them in a horde formation + hero vampire. I would like more, but hard to make points free (which i should but eh :P).

I think 30 is about the optimal number.

 

[jreist]

30 is what I have decided on for the time being with 2000 pts. With 40 i still feel that I am not leaving myself enough points to spend elsewhere. In games that go above the 2000 I will bring in the 40 that people here suggested. Of course, if it feels like the 30 are not performing well enough after a couple games I will change that.

 

[spydertau]

Rothgar has played many, many games against me. He's seen variants of the GG ranging anywhere from 20-40. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you field them to be your "kill everything" unit, you need a unit 40 strong (including characters). Grave Guard with great weapons and a Wight King and Vampire Lord will rip whatever they fight to pieces. If you bring less than 40, expect to see a lot of points get thrown away.

However, this is precisely why I hate playing 2,000 point games. You can't fully equip the vampire lord and still bring a Master Necromancer.

First, decide what you want to do with your vamp lord. You CAN make him a level 4, but he'll run at just about 500 points. You're talking putting HALF of your points into one unit. If you don't want to do that, you could field a couple level 2 casters, or you could avoid the vampire lord and use a Master Necro instead.

What are you more interested in?

I too would rather be playing with more points, but this is a campaign put on by a shop and 2000 points is what they decided to run.

I prefer the idea of the Vampire Lord as my general because I can give him heavy armour to make him more lasting (plus I like the leadership 10 and vampiric powers), but, like you said, a Vampire Lord is very points heavy. Thus, I have started to use a Master Necromancer. I have not really decided if I like the sacrifice I am making in combat to take him though, so I may try taking a Vampire Lord without leveling his magic and taking a couple level 2 Necromancers. The only problem I have with that is I think it could become very easy for my opponents to dispel my spells. Kinda fell like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place as far as my Lord choice is concerned o_o

A Level 2 Necromancer near a Mortis Engine with the Tome is just as a good as a Level 4 caster. Use the Wand of Jet or a Power Stone and at least for one round you should get your spells off.

 

[rothgar13]

The big problem with the L2 vs. the L4 is that you run out of spells to cast, and that your magic defense will suffer. And that if/when the Mortis Engine goes down (and it will have a HUGE target on it), chances are you'll be in trouble.