Observations after playing with Lizardmen

[The Sun King]

I recently went to a summerhouse and had a weekend of massive drinking, Warhammer Quest(old school stuff eh?) and of course Warhammer Fantasy with my friends.
Got my two first games in with the new Lizardmen(an army I just started but have already fallen in love with). I played with the following list:

Scrambled Eggs

Lord
Slann: Lore Master High Magic, Ethereal, Magic Resistance 2, BSB, Earthing Rod


Hero
Skink Priest
Level 1 Heavens, DS

Skink Cheif
Ancient Steg w. Sharpened horns, Egg of Quango, Spear, Charmed Shield, Light Armor

Core
44 Sarus Warriors: FC, Spears
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers


Special
6 Chameleons
6 Chameleons

3 Terradon Riders: Fireleech Bolas


Rare
Ancient Stegadon: Engine of the Gods, Sharpened Horns
2 Salamanders
2 Salamanders

I won both my games(yay for a first timer!). The first game was against a sphinx type Tomb Kings list with Khatep, that game was blood and glory and I won by
charging his Khatep bunker with my salamanders and killing his General. It was a close game though since the very next combat I would have lost because my Saurus
horde was taking a beating.
The second game was against a new Skaven player in our group. His list was very classic Skavenish This game was watchtower and I won in turn 7. The victory was 15-5
since my Saurus horde in the tower gave me 750 vps. This game was tiring, it took us 7 hours to finish... and we were tired to begin with

Okay so what have I learned?

- Stormbanner stops Lizardmen dead in the tracks when it comes to warmachine hunting(no flight no shooting... )
- High Magic is a very nice lore ESPECIALLY if you're Loremaster and have the LM lore attribute. I cannot say enough how cool it is to change spells all the time.
- Salamanders are still very strong and are great for hunting wizards which means they are a threat no matter what the enemy does. If he doesn't engage them he'll get
flames all over the place, and if he does engage them they'll rip most non elite things apart. I really like these dudes.
- Egg of Quango is THE COOLEST MAGIC ITEM EVER It is so good for a number of reasons: 1. it kills assassins who wants to kill your steg 2. it greatly increases the
damge output when you need it and 3. it means that your enemy has to deal with the threat.
- A horde of Saurus is maybe not the strongest build but it did me well in both games. First game they could take an insane beating and still survive and second game they
straight up won me the game since you don't get these badboys out of buildings
- Ancient Stegs are very good and with two of them and good warmachine hunting abilities you can often have them survive the game. At least one of them should make it through.
- Engine of the Gods is nice but I think I'll give my Saurus hand weapon and shields and drop the engine since it's a bit expensive and I never got to use the bound
spell or spell casting reduction.
- This brings me to another point about ancient stegs: Giant Blowpipes are a great defensive weapon! My ancient steg got charged by a necrosphinx and I got stand and shoot
with my 4d6 poison attacks - that took off 4 wounds of the sphinx and the Egg of Quango got the rest. The sphinx never landed a blow on my steg
- Walk between the worlds is an incredible spell! If I hadn't been so tired I would have used it to get my Ethereal Slann out of the way so it didn't get charged by
a doom wheel. It just has so many uses that spell.
- Fiery Convocation is amazing. If you think it over it's pretty insane: Get the spell through kill a bunch of units. Next turn in your opponents magic phase he'll have
to use around 5 power dice to DISPEL Fiery Convocation, which means he won't be able to do much else in the rest of the phase. Next turn guess what you do then? Cast
Fiery Convocation... rinse and repeat. This means that while his troops are burning up your opponent can't really use his magic phase for anything else than trying
to dispel.
- Skinks are still great but they really took a hit when they went from ld6 to 5. So watch out that they don't flee off the table.
- Predatory fighter is the bomb! I've heard many say that it's a liability but I really don't think so. It's just 1/6 more attacks... which is great

Well that was it for now

 

[Bullhax]

what news from the riddermark?

Any new games under you belt with more valuable info? I have a secret lizzy crush because some of their models are killer, especially colour-wise! Although collecting them will be a long way out since my dead fatties are far from being done

What colourscheme do you use for your Lizardmen btw sunny? Can I ever get some pictures out of you or do I have to drag my ass to Copenhagen and see them live? Which I will at some point I promise!

 

[The Sun King]

Nope haven't played more games since what I posted here

My Lizzies are all sorts of colours - I normally make my armies very uniform but now that I had an excuse I went full retard with the colors

Yes you will have to drag your ass to CPH to see my models - although they are nothing compared to yours And again, gratz on the son - I'm sure he'll be a great WH player when he grows up

EDIT: Oh yeah, something that I learned that I didn't post is that an Ethereal Slann is very hard to deal with for your enemy, especially if you give him MR2. Use Walk Between the Worlds to get him out when in trouble... did I mention how amazing that spell is?

 

[Bullhax]

Nope haven't played more games since what I posted here

My Lizzies are all sorts of colours - I normally make my armies very uniform but now that I had an excuse I went full retard with the colors

Yes you will have to drag your ass to CPH to see my models - although they are nothing compared to yours And again, gratz on the son - I'm sure he'll be a great WH player when he grows up

EDIT: Oh yeah, something that I learned that I didn't post is that an Ethereal Slann is very hard to deal with for your enemy, especially if you give him MR2. Use Walk Between the Worlds to get him out when in trouble... did I mention how amazing that spell is?

Fair enough.! Hehe can't wait to see them And dang on the no pictures part!

Thank you very much, the last couple of days have indeed been hectic to say the least..! My painting and general spare time will be spend on the family and reading like mad for my very last examn in january!

That spell sounds killer. And MR 2 teleporting ethereal slann sounds rediculous!

 

[The Sun King]

It is quite good, I'm looking forward to what the guys come up with to counter my Slann build

 

[Scalenex]

High Magic is new, so we have a tendency to fixate on the new. I'm guessing once High Magic is less shiny we LM players will gravitate back towards more conventional lores (that will see more use of the Engine of the Gods when that happens). High Magic will remain the most popular but I don't think it will be Omni-present like now. Swapping spells is addictive. I found it gave me the urge to cast my LEAST valuable spells because I want to swap them and not my most valuable spells because I almost lost sight of winning the game.


I haven't played vampires with the new LM yet, and there aren't enough LM players in my area, so I doubt I'll play my little VC army against LM but I'm making the educated guess of Theoryhammer is that the name of the game is Terrorgheists.


Skinks took a leadership hit across the board. All of our Skinks took a Ld hit and all of the new units have fairly low Ld scores. Our best anti-Terrorgheist unit, Skroxigor (Skink/Kroxigor hybrid unit), has been nerfed because the Kroxigor can be targeted individually by the front rank of the enemy. This means we lost our best anti-monster unit. This means a smart LM player packing High Magic will be seeking Spirit Leech and maybe some Light spells to pick up the slack. Thus your priority target may be Skink Priests which can help aim short range attack spells like Spirit Leech. Slann can't take Banehead's or Cupped Hands anymore so magically blasting a vampire lord to cause crumble is harder than it used to.


A part from this, I don't think VC-LM matchups has changed much. If you were able to handle LM before, you should do fine now. If you weren't able to handle LM before and it wasn't because of Banehead or Cupped Hands then you will still have problems.

 

[BloodbathMcGrath]

Good synopsis sunny! haha I still haven't picked up the book since I won't be starting anymore armies for a while, so I won't be spamming anymore misinformation about LM Is the predatory hunter really so great? It comes off like a less powerful, less risky frenzy...
Also, what are your thoughts on the bastiladon? Think he'll see some action with the sun beam weapon?

 

[Scalenex]

Good synopsis sunny! haha I still haven't picked up the book since I won't be starting anymore armies for a while, so I won't be spamming anymore misinformation about LM Is the predatory hunter really so great? It comes off like a less powerful, less risky frenzy...
Also, what are your thoughts on the bastiladon? Think he'll see some action with the sun beam weapon?

Early games with the new book have have given multiple LM players the same conclusion. Of the completely new options, Bastiladons with the Solar Engine are the best. I certainly liked all the trolls I've baked with it. For it's comparably low casting cost, the Beam of Chotec is an awesome Bound Spell. It's already become a staple of Slann-less lists though it works well with Slann as well because you can get it cast with one or two dice pretty easily.

 

[Ravenheart]

Quick question:

A guy at my local club came up with the idea of putting the piranha blade on a slann due to the d3 wounds and armour piercing rule it gives the bearer. His argument is that wounds from spells cast by this slann now get the d3 wounds and armour piercing rules. The item does not specify that it's attacks in combat that get these rules, the bearer gets them.

So, the question is; Do spells cast by a model with the Multiple Wounds (d3,) and Armour Piercing special rules benefit from these special rules in addition to whatever effects the spell usually has?

 

[Scalenex]

Quick question:

A guy at my local club came up with the idea of putting the piranha blade on a slann due to the d3 wounds and armour piercing rule it gives the bearer. His argument is that wounds from spells cast by this slann now get the d3 wounds and armour piercing rules. The item does not specify that it's attacks in combat that get these rules, the bearer gets them.

So, the question is; Do spells cast by a model with the Multiple Wounds (d3,) and Armour Piercing special rules benefit from these special rules in addition to whatever effects the spell usually has?

This question has come up on Lustria's rules forum. The consensus seems to be that you CAN do this but you SHOULDN'T do this because it would be taking advantage of a clear exploit and being sportsmanship. More fodder for the LM FAQ that GW is taking their sweet time with...

 

[Nightreaver]

Exactly how people use it to cause AP/D3 impact hits with ancient stegadon helm. Right?

 

[The Sun King]

@Nightreaver: Yes.

@Scalenex: LM eats TG's like it's nobody's business, I would NEVER bring a TG against a LM army... the reason is pretty obvious: Poison attacks.

@Bloody: My conclusion is that Bastiladons look pretty weak on paper. But they are fairly cheap so it won't cost you the game to bring them. They have a bad damage output, horrible movement and are not stubborn. Still the beam is nice, the Ark is too circumstantial I think.

 

[Johann]

Lord
Slann: Lore Master High Magic, Ethereal, Magic Resistance 2, BSB, Earthing Rod


Hero
Skink Priest
Level 1 Heavens, DS

Skink Cheif
Ancient Steg w. Sharpened horns, Egg of Quango, Spear, Charmed Shield, Light Armor

Core
44 Sarus Warriors: FC, Spears
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers


Special
6 Chameleons
6 Chameleons

3 Terradon Riders: Fireleech Bolas


Rare
Ancient Stegadon: Engine of the Gods, Sharpened Horns
2 Salamanders
2 Salamanders

watch out for saurusses they are core, steadfastis good but easy for your opponent to overcome. You need more salamanders as they are the best rares. You can fight with them if they are charged. use skinks to try to keep warmachie hunters off course (2 small 10 strong skirmishers or units is ok.)

terradon riders have large bases (contact), they are standard vampire bats.

stegadons with armoumries can be kept behind the lines.

cameleon skinks are cool as they cannot be shot, try to make your opponent target them.

a carnosaur is good from time to time.

try to make your VC army translated to lizardmen and you'll have loads of fun, e.g. kroxigor are ogres/non-regen trolls/...

I see that you dsicovered celestial magic

 

[Scalenex]

@Scalenex: LM eats TG's like it's nobody's business, I would NEVER bring a TG against a LM army... the reason is pretty obvious: Poison attacks.

@Bloody: My conclusion is that Bastiladons look pretty weak on paper. But they are fairly cheap so it won't cost you the game to bring them. They have a bad damage output, horrible movement and are not stubborn. Still the beam is nice, the Ark is too circumstantial I think.

I wish my poisoned shooting did so well against Terrorgheists. This is how it usually plays out.

Turn 1 Terrorgheists obliterate most of my Chamo Skinks and panic or run them off with a Terror Charge

Turn 2 Skink Skirmishers infict 2-3 wounds on the Terrorgheists, then the Terrorgheists fly away and kill something on the other side of the table

Turn 3 Multiple castings of Lore of Vampires have fully healed the Terrorgheists who continue killing my troops with impunity. Two Terrorgheists make a great team. One goes after low Ld dinosaurs and the other clears away Skinks and their poison shots.

Also I'd recommend not using TG as an abbreviation for Terrorgheist when discussing Lizarmden. That abbreviation means something else to the Cold Blooded :tongue:

 

[The Sun King]

Sure it can go both ways with the Terrorgheist, but I dislike terrorgheists since they die like flies in my meta.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

ME 's ftw aye sunny. I liked TG when new book came out, but as im working more with MI due to my meta (CH) i find the ME so much mord useful. And it allows me to bust ouf my spear skellie horde. Mmmm..

 

[BigAL]

Sunny, you should have 1-2 saurus heroes in that unit. Their stats are insane for their points. I also like having a small swarm base next to a chunky unit of saurus to give them poison. Multiple Stegs doesn't mean easier victory, a friend of mine uses 3-4 Stegs in his LM list and if you can deal with 1, you can generally deal with 2-3 or possibly more. After that initial charge round Stegs tend to not have a high damage output, so even though they get thunderstomps against infintry, ranks are their biggest killers since they have trouble taking out more than 5 models per round.
I know everybody loves the high lore, but I honestly think it's stupid. The lore of light benefits LM more than any other army, it has fire MM, WS init 10 spell, ASF +1 at spell w/double move, and my favorite: the net of amuktuk. The lore attribute of high is definitely tempting, but against a decent magic defense you will have to throw a lot of casting dice at spells that aren't so good just so you can take a chance of getting a spell you want from another lore, so instead of taking that lore to begin with, you have to cycle through your power dice and get maybe a mediocre spell off instead of just getting the spell itself. The last few times i played against LM I only allowed 1 3dice spell off per turn because of planning out my dispel, and with 3 dice on that lore, you don't really get a lot of good spells to attempt. Anyway I hope this helped. I play against LM a lot and I think high magic is not the way to go. Also don't forget that models that aren't in the front rank can't have more than 1 attack so roll preditory fighter only for front rank models.

 

[The Sun King]

The Lore of High Magic is by no means mediocre. The lore attribute is simply just amazing - but that's on top of a really useful and all around lore.

I dislike having two units of Saurus since they die way too easily.

Regarding your interpretation of the PF rule most will disagree since Army books overrule the BRB, no matter what it's pretty plain that RAI allows for full use of PF.

 

[Maximullis]

Anyone tried a large unit of Razordons? I was thinking about it when coming up with my lizards list - 6 razordons boosted with Hand of Glory and sitting on a flank or walk between worlds them behind infantry blocks, at short range 6 arty dice worth of s4 shots is going to mess things up, then they're not a slouch in combat either with 3 s5 attacks each at i4.. just thinking

 

[The Sun King]

I've really looked a lot at the razordons - trying to find something that makes them useful. But to me it just seems that Salamanders do what they do way better.

 

[Maximullis]

I've really looked a lot at the razordons - trying to find something that makes them useful. But to me it just seems that Salamanders do what they do way better.

Salamanders can't be run in large blocks as well as razors can, for one they're more pricey but you also can't place a flame template over the first rank, so you're kinda stuck at max 3 still for sally, whereas razordons can multitask as both a large combat block and plenty of shooting.

or take 1 unit of 6 razors and 2 units of 1 sally and play merry hell with hordes n such.

Also, I guess razors may be better at whittling down smaller heavily armoured units like knights, simply because with the right buffs - Hand of glory they can get a silly number of hits

 

[The Sun King]

Still they are competing with Salamanders(who are still amazing) and Ancient Stegadons(which I find is one of the best things in the book) for the rare points. Also 6 Razordons are insanely expensive and die pretty easily.

 

[BigAL]

The Lore of High Magic is by no means mediocre. The lore attribute is simply just amazing - but that's on top of a really useful and all around lore.

Regarding your interpretation of the PF rule most will disagree since Army books overrule the BRB, no matter what it's pretty plain that RAI allows for full use of PF.

There are no spells that give your fighting units buffs they need in that lore, I think light has all the buffs LM need, plus a lot of other spells that a slann can take more advantage of vs high. There are 2 armies with ASF as an army wide rule, if the #6 light spell hasn't been useful before, it's more than worth it's weight in tourney scenes now, think of a unit of saurus swinging before executioners or white lions, or simultaneous with cold one knights and witch elves negating their rerolls. Try out light a few games and then tell me I'm wrong, but from my play experience light is the way to go with LM.

And predatory fighter doesn't say it overrules the support attack rules or anything like it, so in this case the BRB isn't being overruled.

 

[badfox7]

I find high magic useful especially with the lore attribute. Cast a couple spells and forget them and get mystifying miasma, wyssans wildform and iceshard blizzard and then hand of glory yourself and it doesn't matter if the asf If they came hit you. Also fiery convegation is devastating.

 

[The Sun King]

The Lore of High Magic is by no means mediocre. The lore attribute is simply just amazing - but that's on top of a really useful and all around lore.

Regarding your interpretation of the PF rule most will disagree since Army books overrule the BRB, no matter what it's pretty plain that RAI allows for full use of PF.

There are no spells that give your fighting units buffs they need in that lore, I think light has all the buffs LM need, plus a lot of other spells that a slann can take more advantage of vs high. There are 2 armies with ASF as an army wide rule, if the #6 light spell hasn't been useful before, it's more than worth it's weight in tourney scenes now, think of a unit of saurus swinging before executioners or white lions, or simultaneous with cold one knights and witch elves negating their rerolls. Try out light a few games and then tell me I'm wrong, but from my play experience light is the way to go with LM.

And predatory fighter doesn't say it overrules the support attack rules or anything like it, so in this case the BRB isn't being overruled.

Hand of Glory is amazing on Saurus, Conflagration is insane(read OP if you wonder why) and Army Books always overrule BRB so it doesn't have to STATE that anywhere(it's in the BRB itself). Oh yeah in Walk between the Worlds are probably one of the most useful spells in the game, for obvious reasons.